Fisto Mk I
Well-known member
60/8 = 7.5, 8 if first count, 60/5 = 12, 13 if first count. So 8 vs. 13. Also SD provide 2 unique debuff up to -14 to MRR/PRR, it must be count too if you count ooze for FS, no? 8)
U75 100 Dex/DS low-PL Shuri-Thrower
- Thread starter Bjond
- Start date
Bjond
Well-known member
This is why napkin-math doesn't work out as well for DDO as for other games. There are so many little details and they add up. For instance, INQ & Repeater hit 2 & 3 times with Hunt's End. They might do the same with Pluck, since it's single-target. They hit once with SD (it's AE).
I'm pretty sure Lominals rough estimate still puts it in the general ballpark; ie. that it's near-impossible for sd+paranoia to beat pluck on ranged.
Lominal
Well-known member
The exact number was mostly there to show the point that you have to really try to make shadowstrike beat out fate, and at that point you probably lose more DPS than you gain .
Dropping fate for SD also removes the 30% more damage on the shiradi mantle procs for example, the build posted here wont land reliably the debuff in R1 MD without reworking things, you lose the darkness debuff, you lose the on hit dmg if you roll a 1 with either, but this matters more for SD, Etc. The napkin math was there to show a rough estimate of how far ahead pluck is (answer: a lot).
Bjond
Well-known member
Oddly, it seems to stick from repeater and no assassinate bonus. Now and then it takes more than one, but SD strike is the only one it has -- it's not eager to be using Pluck instead.
It's is a raid. It could be coming from another, but it's showing on my line instead of the debuff mess. The strike is an AE. Repeater shouldn't be getting 3x tries from one button press. I haven't figured out why it's sticking, because it really shouldn't.
Supot
Well-known member
Hi, I've been trying to decide what Monk Thrower to make but still undecided up to now. I've never played one before.
My question is: Why 2 Dark Hunter? Is it just for trapping? I see you take no points in the enhancement trees.
Does it suffer DPS by going 2 Dark Hunter over Pure Monk?
My question is: Why 2 Dark Hunter? Is it just for trapping? I see you take no points in the enhancement trees.
Does it suffer DPS by going 2 Dark Hunter over Pure Monk?
Spook
Ghostly Troll
Bjond
Well-known member
IMHO, the big thing to consider is what are you going to do with your thrower? If it's just "oh, I want to try one for TR", my best advice is avoid it at all costs. It's the worst most painful leveling experience you can find. It's worse than leveling a tank as a tank.
You probably won't believe me; that's OK. It's traditional for newbie-throwers to try leveling as a thrower despite the entire forum warning them not to do it. You'll hate that life. We'll nod. Then next time you'll level as something else: INQ, Qstaff, etc. (varies by player taste).
Throwers are so much an at-cap style that they've become effectively raid-only. They don't have to raid; it's just that they take a fair bit of gearing and if you aren't going to sit at cap for a LONG time, that gearing effort won't see much use. Raiding is what to do at cap.
If you want to make a character to sit at cap to raid & RXP with guildies/etc when your main is low from TR, a thrower is a pretty fun choice. It's harder to do than INQ, but it's fun and different compared to all the xbow builds running around now.
I'd make a couple changes for a new-to-thrower player: 20 monk instead of 18/2 and Fatesinger ED instead of SD. The OP has some notes about what to swap for a 20 monk.
It's only for trapping, but it also gains a feat, which I use for Luck of Heroes (3 skills & 4 saves).
DPS loss is ~3% for 18 Monk 2 DH versus 20 Monk.
IMHO, Fisto's inviso-cannon is likely DPS+30~60% over pure, but that's a wild guess. It's got enough extra dice via sneak+paranoia to double the Front number, but it takes a hit on DS & 10KS and it also has to be weighed against Pluck for those not interested in SD's debuffs (likely most).
Fisto Mk I
Well-known member
And free another feat: 2WF for Heroic Durability and more HP. Free HP always good. 8)
Supot
Well-known member
My aim is to solo R8 - R10s.
I have been doing this on a low past life Inquis, but Thrower is one of the only builds I haven't tried yet in DDO so the time is long overdue.
Browsing through these Shuriken posts, Hobgoblin mentioned in Christhemiss' thread that Yes, the Shuri thrower has better DPS than Inquis but it's harder to solo with. Not sure why. Maybe he was comparing it to the FVS which has good heals.
I am ready to invest on a thrower, but i hear that it is pretty intensive stat/past life wise so maybe your build is for me. My toon will have:
3 racial points
1 universal point
72 Epic destiny points
60 reaper points
Having trapping is one thing I will like, since it can also contribute to RXP and makes questing safer. For -3%, it sounds good.
Will have to find FIsto's build.
Actually, I was planning to try Unsinful's 14 Pally 6 Monk Thrower, but not so sure about that now. Also nice to have a high runspeed toon.
Supot
Well-known member
By the way, I heard about the need to constantly click the attack button instead of just holding it 
This is actually bugging me. Do you know how many times per second you need to click it?
I already have some joint pain so I need to think about this before I make a thrower.
This is actually bugging me. Do you know how many times per second you need to click it?
I already have some joint pain so I need to think about this before I make a thrower.
Bjond
Well-known member
IIRC, that's only with Tabaxi? It's a race bug or at least newer than I last played shuri. I've tested it when I last played it (not tabaxi -- halfling, iirc) and it's capped (86/m) with auto. It's a concern of mine, too. Forced-mousing would completely kill play for me.By the way, I heard about the need to constantly click the attack button instead of just holding it
Test Dojo is up now and would be a good way to check. I generally use actual shurikens, turn auto on for 60s, and count missing ammo. I'm not sure if it consumes extra ammo on DS these days or not, but having zero DS, no SE, & no Ninja-Spy C2 would make sure it doesn't alter results either way. IIRC, pre-patch one of the stances turned DS off (regular Defensive Stance? .. can't recall, it was LONG ago).
Harder solo is likely due to worse AE. INQ has some really nice AE buttons. For Shuri solo, I'd be very tempted to make the OH LGS Salt instead of Ooze. It's amazing for slowing packs down enough to kill them at range, though I last used it back on a GXbow build with Volley.
I don't think Fisto posted his. He made a comment above about a 12 DH split. I laid it out in builder to "see" it and started calling it inviso-cannon in this thread: 12 DH 6 monk 2 fight for the layout I used. I have yet to fully calc and weigh it's DPS versus others.
14 PLD 6 Monk would make a strong thrower. It's a split I considered, too. The buffs are v.nice. The big difference between a heavy split and a pure or near pure would be 10KS and especially IA+10KS. If you've been trying INQ at your solo goal, you'd know how much you use IA now and can weigh a better IA versus better base.
Supot
Well-known member
tried it with an eladrin melee pure monk. no ranged feats, but i did take whirling wrists in shiradi. My rate of fire was roughly 20% faster with manual clicking with whirling wrists and 17% faster without whirling wrists.
i think my best option is to find a third party macro app that would let my mouse hold make it click repeatedly. and then have a toggle button to on/off that. Rate of click needs to be fast too, it seems. If i try to click at the pace that it fires, it sometimes won't fire at all if not timed correctly.
i think my best option is to find a third party macro app that would let my mouse hold make it click repeatedly. and then have a toggle button to on/off that. Rate of click needs to be fast too, it seems. If i try to click at the pace that it fires, it sometimes won't fire at all if not timed correctly.
Bjond
Well-known member
That's disappointing. It should cap at 86/m for both of them. Were you counting animations or ammo? The animations are not sync'd with the actual throwing/damage. Need to count the ammo over a set time frame; eg 60s.
I worked up damage estimates for this and for the gnome. These used my current character stats in the builder. Someone with completionist would be able to make different choices and perhaps alter the gap.
- ~3.9M/m for Inviso-Cannon (12 DH 6 Monk 2 Fight)
- ~4.8M/m for Tiny Double Dragon (12 Art 6 DL 2 DD)
- =23% more DPS from TDD (both self-buffed only, no IA .. unbuffed is a 30% difference)
I started to lay this out but after a while it became pretty obvious that DH+Shuri would always beat DH+Dagger Thrower.
At this point, I think I'm going the shelve the monk idea. It's just not strong enough compared to my current build. It's a shame. I love the inviso-cannon build synergies and I like how Shuri-Throwers play MUCH more than Repeater. I was hoping it would win. :(
Fisto Mk I
Well-known member
It's still splendid, @Unsinful is great builder and player. Slightly rigid, at my taste, but very good. 8)
Yea, Salt is amazing for solo, and you can have all four buffs/debuffs (Affirmation/Salt + Dust/Ooze) if use trick with Call Lightning Storm clickies.
I use 2 lvl Pally really because... you know... my precious...
