U78 Lamannia Arcane Trickster Preview

Status
Not open for further replies.
Torc

Torc

Systems Developer
The Arcane Trickster is a Rogue Archetype who dabbles in their own kind of magic to augment their abilities. They have modest skill in Enchantment and Illusion magic but can also steal spells from other classes. They also can summon a magical Mage Hand to cause mischief and disable traps at a distance.

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Class Skills:
  • Skill points at 1st level: (8 + Intelligence modifier) x4
  • Skill points at each additional level: 8 + Intelligence modifier
  • Uses Skill Rogue List minus Intimidate and Swim but Gets Concentration and Spell Craft instead.
Weapon and Armor Profs: As Rogue
Past Lives: +1 Illusion DCs and +3 Force Spell Power
Enhancements Trees
  • Arcane Trickster (see below)
  • Mechanic
  • Thief-Acrobat
1st+0/+0+0+2+0Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding00---
2nd+1/+1/+6+0+3+0Evasion00---
3rd+2/+2/+7/+12+1+3+1Sneak Attack +2d6, Magical Training, Mage Hand Legerdemain201---
4th+3/+3/+8/+13+1+4+1301---
5th+3/+3/+8/+13+1+4+1Sneak Attack +3d6402---
6th+4/+4/+9/+14+2+5+2Bonus Magical Feat502---
7th+5/+5/+10/+15+2+5+2Sneak Attack +4d6652---
8th+6/+6/+11/+16+2+6+2Magical Ambush8021--
9th+6/+6/+11/+16+3+6+3Sneak Attack +5d6,9521--
10th+7/+7/+12/+17+3+7+311022--
11th+8/+8/+13/+18+3+7+3Sneak Attack +6d6125221-
12th+9/+9/+14/+19+4+8+4
Bonus Magical Feat
140222-
13th+9/+9/+14/+19+4+8+4Sneak Attack +7d6155222-
14th+10/+10/+15/+20+4+9+41703221
15th+11/+11/+16/+21+5+9+5Sneak Attack +8d61853222
16th+12/+12/+17/+22+5+10+5Spell Thief2003322
17th+12/+12/+17/+22+5+10+5Sneak Attack +9d62153322
18th+13/+13/+18/+23+6+11+6
Bonus Magical Feat
2304322
19th+14/+14/+19/+24+6+11+6Sneak Attack +10d62454443
20th+15/+15/+20/+25+6+12+6-2604444

Spells:

Intelligence is the Arcane Trickster's primary casting stat. These are done like bard/sorc spells (with swap support) so no scroll scribing.

IMPORTANT BUG - For some reason Metamagics/caster Feats aren't respecting Trickster as a class that should have access. For this preview build you will need to splash 1 level of a caster class to access metamagic/caster feats including the bonus feats.

Example: Take 1 Wizard level before level 6 so you correctly get your bonus caster feats for arcane trickster.

Spell List:
  • 1st Level Spells: Charm Person, Color Spray, Expeditious Retreat, Feather fall, Hypnotism, Jump, Magic Missile, Merfolk's Blessing, Nightshield, Protection from Evil, Repair Light Damage, Sleep, Tumble
  • 2nd Level Spells: Blur, Cat's Grace, Daze Monster, Fox's Cunning, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, Otto's Resistible Dance, Resist Energy, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility, Touch of Idiocy
  • 3rd Level Spells: Chain Missile, Deep Slumber, Displacement, Frost Lance, Haste, Heroism, Hold Person, Repair Serious Damage, Suggestion, Water Breathing
  • 4th Level Spells: Charm Monster, Crushing Despair, Dimension Door, Force Missile, Phantasmal Killer, Remove Curse, Repair Critical Damage, Freedom of Movement
Feats:

1st Level - Trap Finding, Sneak Attack (progresses like standard rogue, check the chart)

2nd Level - Evasion

3rd Magical Training & Mage Hand Legerdemain ​

  • Mage Hand Disable Device (you can disable a device at base spell range. This cannot be enlarged with meta magics)
  • Mage Hand Bluff: Bluffs target but has a longer duration than the standard bluff skill
  • You Gain the Magical Training Feat
6th - Bonus Feat: 1 of Maximize, Empower, Quicken, Heighten, Extend, Eschew Materials, Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus for Enchantment or Illusion, Mobile Casting

8th Magical Ambush: Your offensive instantaneous damaging spells deal additional 1d6 force damage equal to your sneak attack dice. Scales with 50% of force spell power. This proc has no cool down so it works very well with multi missile spells like magic missile. The sneak dice will not function on DOTS, Pale Master Aura, Wall of Fire, etc.

12th - Bonus Feat: 2: 1 of Maximize, Empower, Quicken, Heighten, Extend, Eschew Materials, Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus for Enchantment or Illusion, Mobile Casting

16th Spell Thief
  • Your melee and missile attacks that strike targets who have spells (we check for a spell list) grant spell points. 1d20 spell points on a 5 second cooldown for melee attacks. Ranged is a 10 second cooldown.
18th - Bonus Feat 3: 1 of Maximize, Empower, Quicken, Heighten, Extend, Eschew Materials, Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus for Enchantment or Illusion, Mobile Casting

Feat Notes - Arcane Trickster will NOT get uncanny dodge, Trap Sense or the Special Ability feats (improved evasion, opportunist, etc etc)

ARCANE TRICKSTER ENHANCEMENT TREE:

General notes:
  • Assume AP costs are 1 unless other indicated.
  • Starting at core 2 these guys "steal" spells from other classes and uses them as SLAs referred to as Stolen spells with the following rules…
  • Stolen spells uses character's rogue level for caster level (this tree offers mixed magics though like wild mage)
  • Stolen spells for DCs uses your disable device skill score
Core 1: Novice of Trickery - Each core grants 5 Universal Spell Power and a +2% bonus to Doublestrike and Doubleshot including this one. Some of your emotes will generate a mage hand which will emote with you.

Core 2: Stolen Spell SLA Multi Selector:
  • Stolen Magic Missile 2SP 6sec CD (wiz/sorc theft)
  • Stolen Cure Light Wounds 2SP 6sec CD (divine theft)
  • Stolen Conjure Bolts 2SP 6sec CD (arty theft)
  • Shillielagh 2SP 6sec CD (druid theft)
  • Sonic Blast 2SP 4sec CD (bard theft)
  • Stolen Fine Dust 3SP 15sec CD (alchemist theft)
Core 3: Stolen Spell SLA Multi Selector:
  • Chain Missile 8SP 10sec CD
  • Moderate Wounds 4SP 6sec CD
  • Personal Augmentation insightful Damage 8SP 2sec CD
  • Sound Burst 8SP 20sec CD
  • Salt Ray 4SP 8sec CD
  • Salt Crystals 8SP 20sec CD
Core 4: Stolen Spell SLA Multi Selector:
  • Force Missile 6 SP 6sec CD
  • Cure Serious Wounds 6SP 6sec CD
  • Radiant Force Field 20SP 180 sec CD
  • Neutralize Poison 10SP 10sec CD
  • Greater Heroism 8SP 2sec CD
  • Flash Freeze 8SP 30sec CD
Core 5: Stolen Spell SLA Multi Selector
  • Disintegrate 8SP 10sec CD
  • Heal - 20SP 15sec CD
  • Tenser's Transformation - SP15 30sec CD
  • Fire Seeds - 10SP 10sec CD
  • Great Shout- SP15 10sec CD
  • Greater Evolution. - SP25 10sec CD
Core 6: Magical Ambush spell power scaling increased to 100% and Spell Thief spell point steal is boosted by 50%. +2 to all stats and +2 Imbue Dice.

Tier 1:
  • Mage Hand- Eye Poke: (2AP Cost) Target takes 1d2 force damage per 2 character levels, scales with spell power. Max caster level 20. Target must make a reflex save against your disable device skill, if they fail they become blind for 8 seconds with a recurring saves every 2 seconds. Cost: 2 SP 10 CD. Passive: Gain 30 Spell Points.
  • Magic Fingers: +1/2/3 Open Locks, Disable Device, Concentration
  • Keep it Flexible: Gain 5/10/15% Reduction to Arcane Failure.
  • My favorite bauble: While holding an orb, dagger or staff you gain +10 Universal spell power
  • I prefer subtly: you generate 10%/20%/30% less hate
Tier 2:
  • Mage Hand - Slap: (2AP Cost) Target takes 1d4 force damage per 2 character levels, scales with spell power. Max caster level 20. They must make a fort save against your disable device skill or become stunned for 6 seconds with a recurring saves every 2 seconds. Cost: 2 SP 10 CD. Passive: Gain 30 Spell Points. Requires previous mage hand enhancement.
  • Protective Gear: - 2/4/6 bonus to MRR and MRR Cap
  • Three handed Casting: Your Quicken Spell Feat costs 1/2/4 SP less. Requires Quicken Spell. Stacks with Efficient Quicken from other trees.
  • Catcher Glove:(2AP Cost) Your mage hand will deflect incoming projectiles occasionally granting the deflect arrow feat and you also gain a +2% bonus to dodge.
  • Illusory Escape: When you tumble, you will phase out of reality briefly, passing through enemies as you do so. (anti req'd against gnome version)
Tier 3:
  • Mage Hand - Meddle with Reality: Any creature you target with mage hand Slap or Eye Poke is no longer immune to sneak attacks, their fortification is reduced by 25% and their will saves are reduced by 4. The creature type changes to fey for purposes of immunities. This lasts 30 seconds. This can apply to bosses. Passive: Gain 30 Spell Points. Requires previous mage hand enhancement.
  • More Magic More Fun: (2 AP) - Multi Selector
    • Mixed Magics: As per Wild mage
    • Quick Silver: You gain the quick draw feat and 5 Universal spell power.
  • Tricks on Tricks: Your weapon attacks and offensive evocation spells have a chance of granting you a stack of Tricks on Tricks, which gives a +1 to Illusion and Enchantment DCs. This stacks up to 4 times. The stacks decay at a rate of 1 every 30 seconds.
  • Arms of the Trickster Multi Selector:
    • Trickster Trick - Imbue Toggle: Your weapon attacks do 1d4+1 force damage. Scales with spell power.
    • Trickster's Blade - Imbue Toggle: Your weapon attacks do 1d4+1 force damage. Scales with 200% melee power.
    • Trickster's Bolt - Imbue Toggle: Your weapon attacks do 1d4+1 force damage. Scales with 200% ranged power.
  • Int/Charisma/Dex Picker
Tier 4:
  • Helping Hand: Removes most crowd control effects from a target, heals them for 50% of their Max Hit points and applies a restoration effect to the target. Can be used while your CC’d. Cost: 5 SP. 60 CD. Passive: Gain 30 Spell Points. If your incapacitated for more than 6 seconds and have 5 spell points you will receive the helping hand effect. Requires previous mage hand enhancement.
  • Applied Force: (2 AP): Gain +1 imbue die per 3 rogue levels and +10% to crit damage with force spells. Requires any of the Arms of the Trickster selections
  • Pin Point: +1/2/3 Spell Pen +3/6/10 Fort Bypass. Rank 3: Your mage hand spells automatically dispels Night Shield and Shield spell effects.
  • Slippery Magic: (2 AP) You have a chance to gain a +5% uncapped bonus to dodge and +1 reflex saves whenever you land an offensive spell on a target. This can stack up to 3 times. 1 stack drops every 15 seconds. Passive: +2% bonus to dodge.
  • Int/Charisma/Dex Picker
Tier 5:
  • Mage Hand - Presto! (2 AP): Mage hand snaps it's fingers over a none boss target to make them disappear. We don't know where they go, it's magic! Target gets a will save to negate the effected with a DC equal to your disable device skill. Cost: 10 SP 30 CD. Passive: Gain 80 Spell Points. Requires previous mage hand enhancement
  • An Extra hand: All meta magics are reduced in cost by 2. You have a chance when struck by a spell to manifest an extra mage hand which knocks down the opposing caster down.
  • Magic is a Tricky Business: You gain a +1/2 bonus to illusion and enchantment DCs. Rank 2: Passive - Tricks on Tricks now also increases to hit and damage with weapons by 1 per stack.
  • Good with my Hands: +3/6/10 Melee and Ranged Power. Rank 3: Passive - Gain 8 MRR cap.
  • I'm Not Half Bad... Multi Selector: (2 AP):
    • With a Blade - +1 competence bonus to critical thread range and damage multiplier with melee weapons and 15% competence bonus to max hit points.
    • With a Bolt - +1 competence bonus to critical thread range and damage multiplier with ranged weapons and a +10% to Dodge Bypass.
    • With a Spell - +20 Universal spell power, +2 spell penetration and +5% crit chance with all spells.
Known Issues in this preview:

1. Enhancement I like to be subtle currently doesn't work
2. Mage Hand Bluff Feat at level 3 is not implemented yet
3. Fixed a bug with chain missile so if it hits a single target, all the missiles will work on that target (before it would fizzle with one hit)
- This spell is still a little wonky because it takes so long to do its damage so it's under review for a redesign.
4. Arcane trickster isn't qualifying for caster feats by itself including its bonus feats at level 6, 12, 18. This is a bug you can work around with a 1 caster level splash in this build.

-T
 
Last edited:
Ying

Ying

5000+ hours played
Torc said:
Past Lives: +1 Illusion DCs and +3 Force Spell Power
Click to expand...
Every other specific spellpower past life is 5 per. The only one that is 3 per is USP. Gear doesn't have lower force spellpower compared to other spell damage types, so let's keep it consistent here. And out of all the spellpower types, force is the weakest. It only scales with the Vulnerability debuff, while all other spellpower types scale with both Ash and Vulnerability.
 
woq

woq

Well-known member
Initial thoughts:

- Really like the imbue/sneak stuff. The sneak on spells with no cd will be very strong I think.
- 3 splash for Mixed Magics will be a lot of fun compared to wild mage of 4.


A little bit perplexed with all the enhanced Illusion/Enchantment DCs when they don't seem to get many enchantment/illusion spells to play with and mage hands & stolen spells scale with disable device, not illusion/enchantment. Seems like they should have a bit better spell selection in general.

I look forward to testing / playing around with this.
 
W

Wisefreelancer

Well-known member
I love this! Like really love this. I'm not sure if its remotely good, but its certainly remotely fun!

There's a few bugs I've found quickly testing the basics:
  1. Tool tips for the capstone on the ambush buff don't match here (unclear which is true)
  2. I like to be subtle suggests it doesn't work on melee, only bolts and spells
  3. Stolen Spell: Greater Evolution does nothing at all
  4. The spell progression is completely broken - only got 1 level 4 spell at 20
Then some general observations:
  1. The enchantment focus is super weak here, as there's not really any enchantment spells in the core kit or any way to get them. You could multiclass into a Wiz/Sorc/Bard I suppose or boost Cut the Strings, but its a lot of hoops. Illusion has Phantasmal Killer plus Feydark colour spray and Weird from the synergist destiny so much better
  2. The ranged weapon support is too weak in Tier 5 to justify all-in on the tree as a ranged, which feels like a missed opportunity. To make non-repeating crossbows remotely competitive you'd need at least some alacrity which you can't get from Inquisitive or Mechanist if you take Tier 5 here. Instead of dodge bypass on the crit enchant could we have 15% alacrity with non-repeating crossbows, at least matching Inquisitive? Its still weaker than Mechanist. Melee gets its essentials, as does
  3. Capstone gives a whole bunch of attribute points you likely wont need (no multiclassing, and you can go pretty all-in on Int for most things) but not a whole lot else beyond the gimics. Could use one more thing.
 
Owlbear

Owlbear

Well-known member
This seems very dull and not much new... Not iconic enough! I'd probably still prefer 2 rogue - 18 wizard trapper. Was hoping for some more new stuff with illusions (at least something with minor illusion) or like temporary disguise as a monster to lose aggro or something.
 
W

Wahatep

Active member
Owlbear said:
This seems very dull and not much new... Not iconic enough! I'd probably still prefer 2 rogue - 18 wizard trapper. Was hoping for some more new stuff with illusions (at least something with minor illusion) or like temporary disguise as a monster to lose aggro or something.
Click to expand...
Yeah, 2 rogue and 18 wizard will be the closest thing to a real arcane trickster from the edition that the game belongs to.

No idea why they are creating an archetype based on a subclass from 5th edition.
 
Ying

Ying

5000+ hours played
I love the fantasy around this archetype. I played something like this in a table top campaign about 20 years ago. It was tons of fun.

However, the archetype has issues:

1. It's INT based so it doesn't mesh with Thief Acrobat which is DEX/STR. Trip DC is STR based. Players have asked for Trip DCs to be based on the highest attribute score, but have been shot down by devs in the past. Perhaps this is a good enough reason now to support that change. If you do support INT for Trip DCs, then update Acrobat's T3+4 attribute multiselector to include INT as an option.

2. Trickster doesn't get access to Defensive Roll, so that enhancement in Acrobat is wallpaper.

3. All of Arcane Trickster's DC-reliant spells (Charm, etc) will be useless using the standard spell DC formula. It's not just a Legendary mob save scaling issue. DDO itemization does not support mixing both spell DC gear and melee/ranged gear. If you try to mix you'll be a medicore melee/ranged, and be an ineffective DC caster.

4. Mechanic simply isn't a viable option with Arcane Trickster. It's the gxbow tree. To play gxbow effectively, you must go 4 levels of Artificer for Endless Fusillade. That leaves no AP to spend in Arcane Trickster. Mechanic needs it's own EF/NHB boost equivalency to have AP to spend on Arcane Trickster enhancements.

5. Because of the above, it seems like a pure Arcane Trickster is the most viable as a dagger, kukri or throwing dagger build using the VKF tree. Other options are an illusion.

On top of the non-synergy between Acrobat and Trickster, quarterstaves are lacking because the crit profile is behind other two-handed weapons like gaxe, gsword and falchion. The 15% attack speed with qstaves is not enough to make up for the gap with the active attacks that favor the better crit profile of those weapons. Qstaves are ~10% behind damage compared to those. When one [W] is only 1d6+6 (compared to two dice for "true" two-handed weapons), one more [W] from stolen spell Shillelagh isn't enough. Acrobat needs Melee Power in the 5th and 6th cores.

Qstaves are pretty much relegated to past life leveling when playing monk/rogue. As cool as the acrobat fantasy is, they are not played at end-game.

Here's a sample build out for Dagger, Kukri, or Throwing Dagger:
41 AP in either VKF or Arcane Trickster
31 AP in the other for Core 5
08 AP in Harper for Know the Angles
--
80 AP

ETA: For this to work, you must always take Insightful Damage spell in Core 3. Forcing players into a single choice seems bad. Perhaps move Insightful Damage to the spell book and replace it with a different Artificer spell in the Core. Flame Turret is a decent choice, because it's an amazing aggro magnet. And frankly there aren't many other level 3 Artificer spells that are desirable.

It pretty much builds itself that way. But did we really need just another dagger, kukri or thrower build?

Torc said:
Core 4: Stolen Spell SLA Multi Selector:

  • Neutralize Poison 10SP 10sec CD
  • Greater Heroism 8SP 2sec CD
Click to expand...
Having buff spells that are easily acquired through potions, scrolls, clicky items or augments feels like a wasted option since the core SLAs will have the most effective DCs. Replace these with spells where DCs matter.

Druid Theft: Replace Neutralize Poison with Thorn Bloom.

Bard Theft: Replace Greater Heroism with Mass Suggestion or Otto's Sphere of Dancing.

Torc said:
Core 5: Stolen Spell SLA Multi Selector
  • Fire Seeds - 10SP 10sec CD
Click to expand...
Fire Seeds is a bad spell -- it has collision issues and in the context of AT will do negligible damage since it's based on fire spellpower. Replace this with Grasping Thorns which does Piercing damage (scales with force spellpower) and has a desirable crowd control effect.

Torc said:
Core 6: Magical Ambush force dice increased to d6s and Spell Thief spell point steal is boosted by 50%. +2 to all stats and Imbue Dice.
Click to expand...
This capstone is meh:
* While thematic stealing more spellpoints isn't as good as you think it is. Spellpoint management is not an issue in DDO between clickies, epic destiny mantles, gear and cost reduction enhancements.
* Magical Ambush dice are only relevant when casting instant offensive spells. It's too niche.
* 2 Imbue Dice and the stats are something, but it's not enough.

All together the capstone just isn't compelling compared to multiclassing.
 
droid327

droid327

Hardcore casual soloist
Not-at-my-computer-yet question: does Ambush work fully with AOEs, or is it first-target-hit only?
 
Neain

Neain

Well-known member
Just gonna say that I like the fire seeds option. not ALL selections need to be best of the best

I would like dancing ball for the bard core 4 though, sounds like a great time
 
woq

woq

Well-known member
pirotessa said:
Needs a trance or DoA. No class should be made anymore at this point that doesnt have a trance included.
Click to expand...
I don't think trance would save this tree for martial types: it doesn't support martiality very well. Looks much more like a splash or caster thing in general, carried a lot by the sneak dice on hit from lvl 8 and/or capstone. There's just not very compelling melee-ness to it and bad synergy with Thief Acrobat.

You do get up to 8 imbue dice from the tree, but +15 comp hp, +4 flat dmg, +10 bypass, +10 mp, +1/+1 criticals, +8 imbue and +up-to-12% doublestrike/shot just doesnt add up to that much when the rest of your options are in Thief Acrobat and Mechanic and these numbers are on full investment to the tree, blocking you out of other t5s and capstones.

The imbue is good (1d4+1 200% scaling) but its also force which is a colossal downside for group play.

The most potential I see being here is gimmick stuff from caster related things - think 3/4 splash on ranged, caster, healer, dodgetank builds.
 
S

Shmuel

Well-known member
I was very excited for this class but it's super underwhelming. All the hybrids are way too weak. Make this compelling! Consider either having spell progression like a sorcerer up to level 9 spells. Maybe lose one key spell school like evocation or necromancer. or if this is too much work at this point adding a few 9th level spells to the 4th level spell list and granting stacking +10 intelligence to the capstone to make up for the lost dcs and give a boost.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top