U78 Lamannia Arcane Trickster Preview

[Lag4Ever]

How about allowing Arcane Trickster to open up a version of the Arcane Archer tree with Int as the DC stat instead of Wis (or enhancing the Enchantment DCs in AA with Disable Device) and adding Crossbow support to AA? Could also add some ranged feats to the bonus feat list.

 

[Smokewolf]

Thank you for taking it for a spin in client. We are definitely looking at Chain Missile working more like standard AOE to fill this gap among other things as we gather feedback.

Since the Shiradi Magic-Missle nerf years back, Magic Missles haven't been worth using on any build. Now your releasing a hybrid just for this purpose and in all likelyhood those MM nerfs (especially to chain missile) will make it a dead-end path.

I strongly advise that Chain Missile return to its multi-projectile form, if its going to be viable past Heroics.

 

[Igognito]

So much feedback!
First of all, welcome trickster!
Second, a bit disappointed that it is 5e like but I was expecting it.
Third, how do I get in Lamania?

From reading Cordovan's post, I also feel that AT needs a bit more love.

I won't repeat ideas, many where given in the 9 pages of feedback.

I want to say that for me AT was a caster that can do trapping and not a rogue that had a bit of spells.

AT even under the 5e concept can become a caster, but it needs more spell support. For DDO I would suggest 5th-9th levels spells to be included in the tree as SLAs.
Few spells (1 of each level) but all these spells should have very efficient DC (maybe based on DD).

Oh, and yes force, illusions and enhancements are a nice combo. I would also add all divination spells.

Other worth to mention suggestions:
Distance of detecting traps
Stealth speed/stealth casting
Spell steal casts the spell it stole from the target. No sp cost. If harmful spell casts it at the target if beneficial casts it at the AT. Still niche but more fun

I think that is my 2 cents

Ps: why to remove trap sense? Not that it matters...

 

[szczekus]

I will still advocate for use this archetype as hybrid caster (by hybrid i mean using usually non-caster class as caster, not by using spells and melee attacks one after another).

I agree that there should be some way to use stealth (bonuses to stealth speed movement maybe as multiselector to arcane spell failure?) and maybe something to use spells without go outside stealth mode (maybe something similiar to Distract ability from FDI universal tree? at least if it work properly).

I thought about spell which should be use for stolen spells from another classess' spellbooks, below i will write my sugestions which differ from original post (lots of them seems reasonable, especially if you want to use this class as force caster so MM, force and chain missles are obvious choice):

- Core 4:​

* Grasping thorns (some aoe physical dmg and CC) [stolen from druid spellbook]​

* Mass Suggestion (some another CC option) [stolen from bard spellbook]​

* Greater Elemental weapon (just buff and utility) [stolen from artificer spellbook]​

- Core 5:​

*Word of balance (single target situational dmg) [stolen from druid spellbook]​

* Disintegrate as it is now OR Banishment (dmg & IK) [stolen from arcane class spellbook]​

- hipotetical core 6 SLA multiselector - or maybe something to use in previous core:​

* Thorn Lance (AoE physical dmg in line) [stolen from druid spellbook]​

* Cometfall (AoE bludgeon dmg and knockdown) [stolen from divine spellbook]​

* Horrid Wilting OR new AOE missle spell - description below (another chunk of caster dmg) [stolen from arcane spellbook]​

* Mass Charm Monster (some AOE CC) [stolen from bard spellbook]​

* Dust of Confusion (another CC to choose) [stolen from alchemist spellbook]​

* Arcane Tempest (force DoT) [stolen from artificer spellbook]​

​

So as my suggestion for new missle aoe spell - i really like idea of MM spammer playstyle, but playing using only 1,3 and 4 spell level spells + some epic strike seems like something is missing and by that i mean scalling into higher heroic and epic levels. So i hope we could have higher lvl pure force missle-like spell with AoE option. It could work like Lesser/Greater Isaac's Missle Storm spells from good ol' Neverwinter Night game (the first one).

So lets say we have 1 missle (like 4d3 + 16, so it will be 2x more than force missle or so) per 1 or 2 CL, with missle amount capped at MaxCL or character lvl, but if this spell is cast near to pack of mobs, missles will spread between all mobs near direct target - so we have aoe potential and still we use Ambush spammable mechanic for each missle. Of course math is just for example. Another idea for this spell as someone already wrote it - just single target missles with exploding AoE after. By summarise i enjoy missle spells mechanic and see needs of higher lvl missle spell.

Another observation from testing on Lam:
Some spells (like feydark fan of shadowblades, druid thorn wave and Shiradi caster epic strike - Fey Lights seems to not proc Ambush dmg but i think they should as it is just dmg instance. Also i would love if Fey light could get better cone range, becasue now it is lots shorter than color spray and DL roar.

 

[Rull]

We are definitely looking at Chain Missile working more like standard AOE to fill this gap among other things as we gather feedback.

I'd make force missiles be the more standard AoE one.

I'd then make chain missiles, well, chain. The code is already in warlock chain shape. something like 3 missiles, player chooses a single target and then the missiles bounce twice more.

lvl1: magic missile. single target, 5 hits
lvl3: chain missile. 3 targets, 3 hits.
lvl4: force missles. all targets, 4 hits.

the level 4 spell is supposed to be the best option (although pure single target, the MM might still win out, but not in a way that feels weird)

 

[Svirfneblin]

Is this supposed to compete with Dragon Lord, the best Archetype out there? Or be relegated to Bottom Tier like Dark Apostate? What’s the intent and where is Arcane Trickster on the Totem Pole?

 

[Viamel]

While we're approaching the rogue class, maybe we could give the three standard rogue trees some love.
Assassin is across the board too expensive for must take abilities.

Thief Acrobat is so lackluster it falls off in Epics and doesn't even see play at legendary

Mechanic is decent but can't compete with other crossbow trees because its the only one without its own native Fusilade/NHB button.

Assassin, the classic main dps rogue tree is also well behind Monk, Dragonlord, Barbarian, Sacred Fist etc for damage output even when really mega tweaked for dps. Primarily this is due to a lack of Melee Power but other things could be tweaked also to lift its overall dps output.

 

[Viamel]

Please also consider giving Trickster an extra class tree in much the same way Dragonlord has Ravager.

Eldricht Knight

Archmage

Ninja Spy (re-worked for sp over ki perhaps?)

 

[droid327]

Big bug: I took 12 levels of SF and then the Rogue trainer (both in Dojo and outside in Marketplace) did not give me an option to pick AT, they just asked me if I was sure I want to train Rogue, and then took me straight to the level up GUI

If I picked AT during char creation it worked OK

The mixed magics at tier 2 make this interesting to me for a ki bolt multiclass. Hmmnnnn.......

If you havent already checked, it appears Ambush doesnt work with Ki Spells

Rolled a 12 SF 8 AT, and neither Ki Bolt nor Wave seemed to carry additional Force damage. I was hoping each of the three damage types (with the T4 SF enhancement) might proc it separately. But the Force damage was always similar to the Light and Fire aspects. 250 Force Power 200 MP, so if it was doing the usual shenanigans the Force component should've been noticeably higher, even if it was just rolling the procs in

Unless I'm doing it wrong?

Also Ki spells dont ever seem to trigger Slippery Magic stacks. Though Wave does still wipe all your Arcane Warrior stacks ><

 

[Deathdefy]

You have to choose between AoE damage and single target damage; full Wargames dilemma
It needs some sort of AoE Force Damage Spell to be enjoyable to play even in heroics.

It can't have its cake and eat it too of having:
- (AOE) Sonic Blast, Soundburst and Greater Shout - NB. These spells are completely unsupported in the tree and it will be a far weaker version of even the worst sorc/spellsinger even accounting for the magical ambushery.
AND
- (Single Target) SLA Magic Missile / SLA Chain Missiles / SLA Force Missiles (the spells on their own will be a cooldown waiting fest, even once casters can turn on quicken fulltime with endgame gearsets and destinies; levelling will be dreadful.).

Fan of Missiles on its own is insufficient AoE even for heroics.

It's very hard to tell its single target dps viability in Legendary without testing but my vibe is it will struggle at ~R3?

Probable build for least bad addition to a raid?
I think you're going:
41 AT (Capstone is must take) / 31 Feydark (Force SP + the only AoE in Fan of Shadowblades) / 3 TA (Movement) / 8 (something; probably finishing off deep gnome to try and get a workable PK DC and SLA and maybe +1 int from a universal)

EDs you're almost certainly going: Shadowdancer (Paranoia Nightmare Lance non-negotiable) / Shiradi (Mantle) / Magus (+3 Fear DC, Timestop)

Then you're:
- IK-ing things not immune to fear via the T5 instakill, PK (unheightened because you don't even need to take heighten which I kind of love and hate).
- spamming SLA Force Missiles, Force Missiles, SLA Chain Missiles, Chain Missiles, SLA Magic Missile, Magic Missile.
(probably not disintegrate due to DCs; probably not greater shout either (bad cooldown, no other Evo DC, sonic not supported with crit change or spell power, Fatesinger not synergistic...); Heal I think is T5's clear winner)

I can the argument for Ruin / Draconic / forcing an unsupported second spell element type into the gearset - but I think that's already deep into admitting defeat territory and still doesn't solve the AoE issue.

It screams for some sort of AoE (and cc is only semi-passable due to GCS from Feydark)
Suggesting giving it some combination of:
- a separate cooldown Fan of Shadowblades equivalent (Stolen "Leaf of Dark Swords")
- uncapped ML Archmage SLAs "Trickster Blast".
- Evard's (as a 4th level spell probably)

Also the T5 sucks; I get it's about matched to T5 Feydark (which also sucks) but even T5 Feydark helps solve the 'Force Damage AoE problem' with the blade barrier.

Kneejerk reaction
My read is 'absolutely painful to level with as a caster due to lack of AoE' and 'unusable at cap' due to bringing nothing - no AoE / (probably) very mediocre single target dps / GCS as only CC.

Hybrids
The issue isn't enhancements/feats - it's gear/filigrees, so AT literally can't fix it unless you are jamming some 'does not stack with filigrees bonuses' in the tree which sounds like the way to finally kill the entire game engine for good.

It is sad to say, but a class needs to stand on its own as a dedicated melee, dedicated ranged or dedicated caster to work.

Doom
I just don't think it works - it needs AoE, but it can't come at the cost of the single target force SLAs. AoE being otherwise 'completely unsupported sonic spells' is also cooked.

Suggestions above.

But please give it some force SP spell AoE that at least makes heroic bearable. It would be sad to have this be an 8/6/6 x3.

Less Doom: genuinely good core and salvageable
I like the thought of, 'let's make a playstyle that isn't viable right now viable' - and think it's doable with added AoE damage (and maybe CC) and someone checking the single target damage is enough to do, say, R4 red names without crying.

And if it's not, cranking up its Magical Ambush damage% quirk is actually an adjustable dial to maintain viability of the class (once it has a way to deal AoE damage) even after future Updates!

I'm sceptical this won't happen because I genuinely don't believe the team has dps numbers testing and tuning resources (no shade on the devs - I don't even think this is a bad first guess; just obviously these things need testing because it's 1 in 10,000 you'd nail it on the first go).

But I live in hope.

 

[Yamani]

Core 5: Stolen Spell SLA Multi Selector

• Disintegrate 8SP 10sec CD
• Heal - 20SP 15sec CD
• Tenser's Transformation - SP15 30sec CD
• Fire Seeds - 10SP 10sec CD
• Great Shout- SP15 10sec CD
• Greater Evolution. - SP25 10sec CD

How about instead of Fire Seeds from druid, the AOE version of Contagion from Blightcaster. Rogues typically do deal with poisons!

 

[EinarMal]

I think they should also re-look at Shiradi proc rates for this. They should change Shiradi to the same proc chance as ranged to make this more viable as a playstyle again.

 

[nickvannuchi]

I think the class is clearly defined by the use of magic missiles and similar spells. I even find it thematically interesting, but this niche has been occupied by the archmage of evocation, which will disappear. It would also be interesting for the AT to make use of the feat Master of Knowledge. Perhaps it would be interesting to include these options (arcane blast) in cores 4 and 5?

At the same time, the archmage could have other spells instead of magic missiles, all AOE to differentiate well from a specialized AT (like most rogue abilities) in single-target damage. I was thinking of something with the animation of burning hands and scorch but with force damage.

 

[EinarMal]

I think the class is clearly defined by the use of magic missiles and similar spells. I even find it thematically interesting, but this niche has been occupied by the archmage of evocation, which will disappear. It would also be interesting for the AT to make use of the feat Master of Knowledge. Perhaps it would be interesting to include these options (arcane blast) in cores 4 and 5?

At the same time, the archmage could have other spells instead of magic missiles, all AOE to differentiate well from a specialized AT (like most rogue abilities) in single-target damage. I was thinking of something with the animation of burning hands and scorch but with force damage.

I know it won't happen, but Archmage should be able to apply imbue damage to spells or something like that to give it some other niche.

I agree they need to give some sort of better AOE, maybe Arcane Blast as a spell thief option, potentially Arcane Tempest.

 

[Falkor]

It's my understanding the magical ambush doesn't trigger with ongoing effects like dots, wall of fire and I will assume ... Arcane Tempest.

And none of the chain missles are actual factual AOE spells. Some of them do single monster damage, to 2 or 3 different mobs. But there is no real AOE ... hence the need for something like arcane blast.

This archetype also needs to work with ki spells and currently doesn't. Is that WAI ?

 

[Lofen]

From reading the responses here it seems there's an agreement that the class isn't a good spell dps class (which would make sense as being a rogue) and also not a great support class to augment the rogue's melee, like for example a dragonlord's roar is. It also doesn't offer much in the tree for a great melee build.
It does however somewhat lean into melee + casting, only the two don't work well together in a streamlined way, which then encourages you to go back to trying to make it a pure caster dps, which is where we started - the class isn't a good spell dps class.

I think this is why most people think the most straightforward way to fix this mess is simply enhance the arcane damage/spells, I could be wrong but I think what everyone is asking for is for it to be viable for something, which is the real problem that requires fixing here.

 

[Shall]

Big bug: I took 12 levels of SF and then the Rogue trainer (both in Dojo and outside in Marketplace) did not give me an option to pick AT, they just asked me if I was sure I want to train Rogue, and then took me straight to the level up GUI

If I picked AT during char creation it worked OK



If you havent already checked, it appears Ambush doesnt work with Ki Spells

Rolled a 12 SF 8 AT, and neither Ki Bolt nor Wave seemed to carry additional Force damage. I was hoping each of the three damage types (with the T4 SF enhancement) might proc it separately. But the Force damage was always similar to the Light and Fire aspects. 250 Force Power 200 MP, so if it was doing the usual shenanigans the Force component should've been noticeably higher, even if it was just rolling the procs in

Unless I'm doing it wrong?

Also Ki spells dont ever seem to trigger Slippery Magic stacks. Though Wave does still wipe all your Arcane Warrior stacks ><

Isn't the wave a persistent AOE that just happens to move? I could see an argument that that is intentional. Ki bolt, explosion, and the gmof ki projectile epic strike should work though I would think.

 

[saekee]

Big bug: I took 12 levels of SF and then the Rogue trainer (both in Dojo and outside in Marketplace) did not give me an option to pick AT, they just asked me if I was sure I want to train Rogue, and then took me straight to the level up GUI

If I picked AT during char creation it worked OK



If you havent already checked, it appears Ambush doesnt work with Ki Spells

Rolled a 12 SF 8 AT, and neither Ki Bolt nor Wave seemed to carry additional Force damage. I was hoping each of the three damage types (with the T4 SF enhancement) might proc it separately. But the Force damage was always similar to the Light and Fire aspects. 250 Force Power 200 MP, so if it was doing the usual shenanigans the Force component should've been noticeably higher, even if it was just rolling the procs in

Unless I'm doing it wrong?

Also Ki spells dont ever seem to trigger Slippery Magic stacks. Though Wave does still wipe all your Arcane Warrior stacks ><

On a wizard splash I have (12 monk/7 wiz), the EK imbues do not proc on ki bolt hits. I think this happened at one point too when I tested it with the KotC light imbue too. So I am not surprised—ki bolts only proc stuff from gear & weapons (using spellpower and crit chance) and the monk imbues.
I would use the mixed magics just to boost the ML of the Ki Bolt for multiclassing, not for Ambush.

 

[nickvannuchi]

As many have already said, swashbuckler may be a good option to replace acrobat. Also giving options of touch ranged spells with sneak dice addition, it's much more thematically appropriate. This changes will giving him a SWF plus touch spell style with sneak dice, a niche not occupied by any class.
Maybe adding imbue dice AND sneak dice to touch ranged spells. On the other "hand", the hand could cast touch range spells in a ranged range to support crossbow user. This could be a interesting way to use wepons and spells togather.

 

[rabidfox]

Sound Burst 8SP 20sec CD

Flash Freeze 8SP 30sec CD

The extra long cooldown on these compared to the normal spells (Sounds burst 20s vs 3s and Flash Freeze 30s vs 6s) is going to make these abilities pretty meh for anyone that runs higher skull content. The 3s/6s normal cooldowns work well with the reductions to durations that CC get; down to 6s in r10. Without shorter cooldowns , they'll be mostly just there for leveling/easy difficulties. It'd be nice if the cooldowns were brought down.