U80 Preview 1 - DC Boost Initiative

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Lazuli

Well-known member
I agree the focus feats do seem like a waste (to be forced) to take. I just wouldn't want them increasing the DC gap further. Something like +2 spell pen/caster level/cooldown reduction/ etc... anything except more dcs for single schools.
I agree with you. That, or +1 DC to a school plus the benefits of mental toughness. The epic feat should be +1 to all schools.

At my PnP table, I have a house rule that spell focus gives +1 to the school's DC and +1 to the school's CL and MCL, but I have my doubts that would be appropriate for DDO.

But yeah, they're weak feats, and this game demands a lot of them. With my wizard, I have DC feats: 2 spell focus feats, 2 greater, 1 epic spell focus, the wiz PL, and 2 spell specialization feats. It's crazy.
 

Drachmor

Well-known member
Lack of room for equip more. We have to equip more stats. And spell dps has also a maddening division of stats. The introduction of critical damage that takes up a full item per element has been tremendously damaging.
That's fair honestly
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
That's fair honestly
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're looking into the problem. I'm glad Tonquin is in charge; I think he has the most experience with casters.

But we need to give our feedback and point out the things we don't think are right.

The bloated state of the caster gear is something that really frustrates a lot of people (myself included), and it even makes many not want to play casters at all. I think it's very important to reduce that bloat, not increase it.
 

Phaedra

Well-known member
It's not a buff. Not when they're making gear even more complicated.

No, they're not improving universal DC. We gained a +2 to Spell Mastery and lost a +2 from GH augments. There's no universal DC increase.

This change only increases the DC of individual schools. That's garbage. The last thing casters need is more complexity in their gear.

I trust Tonquin. I believe he'll see the problem and solve it correctly, without further complicating an already infernal Tetris.
Is the lost +2 from GH augments not for individual schools?

You keep trying to have it both ways (three ways really) where all losses are universal, all gains are specific, and everything always will be balanced against the single highest attainable DC.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
I still think this would be easier to achieve and boost everyone as you gain Levels in DDO:

Free Epic Feats​


Epic characters receive some feats automatically.

IconFeatTypeDescriptionPrerequisites
Passive​
+1 caster level and +1 maximum caster level with all spells (for a total of +5 to all casting classes at level 30).
+2 Spell Focus DC to a School.
None
Passive​



Free Legendary Feats​

Legendary characters receive some feats automatically.

IconFeatTypeDescriptionPrerequisites
Passive​
+1 caster level and +1 maximum caster level with all spells (for a total of +5 to all casting classes at level 40).
+3 Spell Focus DC to a School.
None
Passive​




What about leaving Giant Hold Augments alone and simply make a Stacking Augment with a +2/3 DC(Epic/Legendary level) to all Schools with the Giant Hold bonus Enhancement, so that those that want to keep the Lore and build of their character intact don't lose anything and allow for others to bypass having to slot 3-4 GH augments with just the 1 augment that gives +2/3 DC (Epic/Legendary level) to all Schools using the GH Enhancement.

Another option. Stacking Epic Destiny Cores with a +1 DC, would match up with how Martial Trees get Melee/Range Power per all Cores as well.
I think just giving Epic Knowledge and Legendary Knowledge the bonus to DCs/All DCs would be less work and allow players less Tetris Fatigue.
 

Drachmor

Well-known member
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're looking into the problem. I'm glad Tonquin is in charge; I think he has the most experience with casters.

But we need to give our feedback and point out the things we don't think are right.

The bloated state of the caster gear is something that really frustrates a lot of people (myself included), and it even makes many not want to play casters at all. I think it's very important to reduce that bloat, not increase it.
I think you're right here. I may have gotten on the defensive as sometimes the "buff caster conversation" becomes a "nerf melee" conversation.

But yeah, the gear is so annoying for a caster so I hope they improve it
 

mikarddo

Well-known member
Solving the DC issue in a good way would be really nice

But the main issue is not DC but DPS.

As long as DPS completely dominate quests even easy to attain no-fail DC in all schools does not in itself make a competitive character. Partly because caster dps is a bit low but mostly because martial dps has exploded and become crazy high leaving no design space for IK and CC without strong dps.
 

Krishna Devi

Well-known member
Solving the DC issue in a good way would be really nice

But the main issue is not DC but DPS.

As long as DPS completely dominate quests even easy to attain no-fail DC in all schools does not in itself make a competitive character. Partly because caster dps is a bit low but mostly because martial dps has exploded and become crazy high leaving no design space for IK and CC without strong dps.
Nicely said Mikarddo. Thank you, my thoughts exactly :)
 

Sammy

Well-known member
This is something we are considering doing - under the new scalars, the level 16 version would grant +2 Insightful bonus to a particular school's DCs, and the level 24 version would grant +3. Thoughts?
I strongly ask that you do NOT change the Gianthold augments. I already have Insightful Spell Focus. And heroic gear actually matters to some of us. I've spent years twinking gear for my builds. This is just optimization down the drain. Please do something else. Someone else suggested a new Legendary level augment. That would be preferable.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
I strongly ask that you do NOT change the Gianthold augments. I already have Insightful Spell Focus. And heroic gear actually matters to some of us. I've spent years twinking gear for my builds. This is just optimization down the drain. Please do something else. Someone else suggested a new Legendary level augment. That would be preferable.
We want to reduce the number of channels. The proposed change to GH augments is correct as long as that value is transferred elsewhere and doesn't result in a loss of DC. That's what hasn't been proposed.

Furthermore, and as much as I hate having 5 or 6 slot augments tied up, augments are easier to equip than the proposed increase to school DC items. So please, the current proposal needs significant refinement.
 

Necrodancer

Ancient beyond measure
That's the worst suggestion yet. Players that can already play r10 don't need any more help.

Because adding DC's to items that need to be farmed will totally help who has a hard time or cannot run the quest in the first place. Changing feats and lowering bloated mob saves helps EVERYONE.

Players that can already play r10 will benefit of any change regardless.
 

voenixa121

Well-known member
Because adding DC's to items that need to be farmed will totally help who has a hard time or cannot run the quest in the first place. Changing feats and lowering bloated mob saves helps EVERYONE.

Players that can already play r10 will benefit of any change regardless.
So if someone has difficulty with hitting r1 saves, they get reduced by 0.5? But r10 gets their saves reduced by 5?

I'm sorry to say this, but it seems many here are only focused on their high level play and how to get no-fail DCs. But it should be about making casters more approachable.
For melee you can just get a fresh max level character, put them in some old sharn gear, get a generic weapon from the newest expansion and go.
For a caster you need to carefully plan out the gear in a third party program, get specific augments, farm items from the newest expansion with a different build and then after that you might be able to have a good chance to not see "save" on every mob on elite in the newest expansion.
None of what is proposed here changes that. High end items get more spell DC, but we all know the new expansion will just have higher saves to hit anyway.
We had the very same situation after sharn came out and it only got solved after reducing all saves on all enemies. However I don't expect that to happen before level 40 when the current legendary expansions all become leveling content.
In fact I don't think changing stats of enemies or improving feats is even on the table this time.
 

Smokewolf

Frequently banned member.
Sad to say it, but Arcane Trickster is just so much easier if you like playing casters. I was hoping to switch back to something more "traditional," but it seems unlikely.
And this is why ATR fails as a class...

The fact that players speak positively about ATR doesn't surprise me at all, as today is its day in the Sun. Besides its been almost a decade since a strong caster-class has been on DDO. Though I'd fully expect that just like the casters that came before before it, ATR will meet a grim fate at the hands of the Dev's nerf-bat.

Reason: Its a one hit wonder that's 100% dependent on its Epic Destinies, rather than on the base class. Which makes it into a fragile little snow-flake, just waiting for the Dev's to start making changes to ED's and upset the ATR apple-cart. If ATR had greater access to spells, and If ATR had some synergy with other classes / builds it would be more resilient vs these changes, but it does not.
 
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Smokewolf

Frequently banned member.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're looking into the problem. I'm glad Tonquin is in charge; I think he has the most experience with casters.

But we need to give our feedback and point out the things we don't think are right.

The bloated state of the caster gear is something that really frustrates a lot of people (myself included), and it even makes many not want to play casters at all. I think it's very important to reduce that bloat, not increase it.
My concern is that the gearing changes aren't really focused on the needs of casters but rather are just another attempt at monetizing the dire situation. By effectively pushing players towards the DDO store to enable the itemization gains U80 promises. Hence the changes will be short lived as the goal-posts are once again slid ahead of players expectations. (mobs stats will increase again as a result)

In the end, all those that choose to min-max will pay the price for doing so, quite literally. Meanwhile, casters will be no better off tomorrow they are today.
 

Guntango

Well-known member
Reason: Which makes it into a fragile little snow-flake, just waiting for the Dev's to start making changes to ED's and upset the ATR apple-cart.

*A fragile little best caster in the game snowflake, with pretty excellent defenses. So, like beefy but fragile.
 

Necrodancer

Ancient beyond measure
So if someone has difficulty with hitting r1 saves, they get reduced by 0.5? But r10 gets their saves reduced by 5?

I'm sorry to say this, but it seems many here are only focused on their high level play and how to get no-fail DCs. But it should be about making casters more approachable.
For melee you can just get a fresh max level character, put them in some old sharn gear, get a generic weapon from the newest expansion and go.
For a caster you need to carefully plan out the gear in a third party program, get specific augments, farm items from the newest expansion with a different build and then after that you might be able to have a good chance to not see "save" on every mob on elite in the newest expansion.
None of what is proposed here changes that. High end items get more spell DC, but we all know the new expansion will just have higher saves to hit anyway.
We had the very same situation after sharn came out and it only got solved after reducing all saves on all enemies. However I don't expect that to happen before level 40 when the current legendary expansions all become leveling content.
In fact I don't think changing stats of enemies or improving feats is even on the table this time.

Where are you getting those values from? Drop the freaking saves by 7 across all difficulties, done. You're most welcome and you can pay at the counter on your way out. Or, if you prefer, leave everything up to R4 unchanged and R5 to R7 loses 4 saves and R8 to 10 loses 7, not rocket science. You seem to be inventing problems on purpose to justify your PoV.

I agree with the rest of the post. Being decent with a melee and a ranged is as easy as completeing Korthos. It only goes to show how obscene the power creep has become, how devs KNEW (and for years) and decided to keep giving the usual suspects even more power and they didn't cared. But now you are talking about gear and dps.

Here we're talking about gear and DC, the dps argument will come in later if they will ever decide to address it. Giving gear that much power will only make feats worthless as they will contribute to a very small amount about toon DC. I have yet to hear a single decent and logic argument on why spell focus feats cannot get the fighter treatment with their tactical skills.

I mean, it's not like they represent what a toon has actively studied, practiced and specialized in their career isn'it? Fighter also get a massive bonus all their DCs while casters need to pick a school.

Focusing on improving spell focus mastery items would benefit all casters withotu having to curse for having a good item but with the wrong school on. Only casters get these problems BY THE WAY.
 

voenixa121

Well-known member
Where are you getting those values from? Drop the freaking saves by 7 across all difficulties, done. You're most welcome and you can pay at the counter on your way out. Or, if you prefer, leave everything up to R4 unchanged and R5 to R7 loses 4 saves and R8 to 10 loses 7, not rocket science. You seem to be inventing problems on purpose to justify your PoV.

I agree with the rest of the post. Being decent with a melee and a ranged is as easy as completeing Korthos. It only goes to show how obscene the power creep has become, how devs KNEW (and for years) and decided to keep giving the usual suspects even more power and they didn't cared. But now you are talking about gear and dps.

Here we're talking about gear and DC, the dps argument will come in later if they will ever decide to address it. Giving gear that much power will only make feats worthless as they will contribute to a very small amount about toon DC. I have yet to hear a single decent and logic argument on why spell focus feats cannot get the fighter treatment with their tactical skills.

I mean, it's not like they represent what a toon has actively studied, practiced and specialized in their career isn'it? Fighter also get a massive bonus all their DCs while casters need to pick a school.

Focusing on improving spell focus mastery items would benefit all casters withotu having to curse for having a good item but with the wrong school on. Only casters get these problems BY THE WAY.
I don't know why you are so irritated. I was talking about the suggestion to reduce reaper save increases from 1.5 to 1 per skull. I think that's bad because it reduces the difficulty on high settings more than on low settings. I think it should be the other way around. What do you think my POV is?
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
This is something we are considering doing - under the new scalars, the level 16 version would grant +2 Insightful bonus to a particular school's DCs, and the level 24 version would grant +3. Thoughts?
The more I think about this, the more I feel the change isn't entirely appropriate. Not because I don't want to see these augments deprecated (honestly, I do), nor because it's a decrease in DC (let's assume you move those two DCs somewhere else), but because we still have the problem that if you increase the DC of individual schools, we'll still have the same problem of insufficient slots, and worse. A +3 insightful to ONE school? This is useless. We already have insightful spell mastery in our gear, and if now we have to equip insightful spell focus for each school (plus spell focus gear, plus quality spell focus gear)... we're WORSE OFF than before.

By the time we reach endgame gear, casters are already specialized in DC and damage due to our enhancements, EDs, and feats. This means there's *already* a substantial difference between our specialized schools and the others (and most casters don't have bonus feats, mind you). The gear shouldn't significantly increase an already large difference. The same applies to elements in the spell damage department.

And then there's the fact that we don't have enough slots to equip so many different schools and elements. Casters have an excessive number of slot requirements compared to weapons. Look, for weapons to have the same requirements as spells, it would have to be like this:

Weapons only work on a specific range of enemies (like spells). So, they would need to use several weapons, and for each one, they would have to equip:

- Accuracy for each weapon type (yes, different spell focus, each in its different channels)

- Melee/Ranged power for each weapon type (aka, different spell powers, each in its different channels)

- Doublestrike/Doubleshot for each weapon type (equivalent to our spell lores)

- Damage for each weapon type (equivalent to each of our spell crit damage).

That's just to meet the essentials. Because in addition to that, casters have to equip spell penetration, spell points, damage procs, etc. (I'm not counting defensive stats, which everyone needs).

Do you realize the discrepancy? We have to equip each stat for several schools and elements. Martials don't. The difference is staggering. The total number of stats is roughly the same for weapons and spells. But they don't have that division into schools and elements. You don't ask them to equip different stats for each monster type. That's what you're asking of casters.

In recent years, you've introduced a huge number of new stats for casters, all divided into schools and elements. Spell critical damage has introduced enormous complexity to caster equipment because it's PER ELEMENT. And with Lamordia, the complexity of caster equipment multiplied again because your fellow developers wanted to improve caster DPS, which is currently very poor, with procs. Which means we not only have to equip those procs on our gear, but we also have to equip them with lores and critical damage for them to do decent damage. And on top of that, they've introduced an item that grants +1 MCL. This last addition is fair and not excessive; it's just a single stat not divided into elements. But it adds to such a bloat that we no longer know how to fit everything in.

Now, let's add to the problem of gear bloat the fact that there are two artifact bonuses for spell critical damage and spell critical chance: True Universal and Potency-Style. This is like requiring martials to equip MP/RP and DS/DS twice. It makes no sense. To make matters worse for casters, True Universal isn't represented in the new xpacks, which means we're using old sets like Elder's Knowledge, which are mandatory. Currently, casters have 2 or 3 free solar slots; for the others, we have to use old sets. And then your teammates go and put a gem like Arcane Endurance in a solar slot instead of a lunar one. Brilliant, so we can't use it because there's no space. And to add insult to injury, the solar spell crit chance is rare. Yes. An essential stat for casters within rare loot.
….
….

Oh yes, and then Lamordia adds artifact (solar) spell scholl DC gems. LOL. Because that is we need slot in our 2 or 3 solar slots. Sure.

This is the current state of casters, Tonquin. That's why we're drowning. I'll leave aside the spell damage problem, since I understand you want to address it separately. But I want to emphasize that a major problem for casters right now is the bloated state of legendary gear. This huge division by schools and elements can't continue. It can't. It's insane. Magic has a huge handicap in terms of equipment (in addition to the other handicaps) regarding weapons.

Focusing on spell DC right now, the problems are:

- Completely bloated gear. Already explained.

-Those who aren't completionists/full Reaper Points/full Ed Points are behind in DC. Gear should help them become competent. It doesn't. Many spell DC channels are locked behind:

* Significant grinds (e.g., 3 points behind Reaper Bonus, each costing 75 Reaper Shards; or, for example, due to the scarcity of solar slots, we need to put the Artifact Spell DC in the raid set augments, which is also from a raid that isn't played much).

* Rare loot or hard-to-find channels: Insightful DC and Quality DC aren't very represented, but channels like Sacred DC are very difficult to equip.

* Completely random bonuses: curses. These are also bonuses to individual schools, so the probability of getting the one you actually want is almost zero.

* Filigrees, some from raids, others not. Obviously, Sentience is required to equip them, but in addition to that, casters have to dedicate all their Sentience to Spell DC, which means spell damage is neglected. This doesn't happen with martial builds; they are full DPS. And this hurts hybrid builds a lot because a lot of weapon damage comes from filigrees. And a lot of spell DC (like 16 points) comes from filigrees. Hybrids can't be competitive in this scenario.

That's why I said before that these new filigrees aren't filigrees for hybrids. What a hybrid needs in the current game is for filigrees to give them the spell DC they need without having to sacrifice so much weapon damage. These new filigrees aren't doing that. They aren't filigrees for hybrids.

This is where we are. People who aren't fully focused on the endgame are denied a good portion of the spell DC that gear provides, and many of those people aren't completionists either. Which means they're far behind in spell DC. Gear shouldn't be hard to find. Gear should provide functional spell DC even if you don't have full past lives. You're killing the game with this greed so we spend astral shards, raid bypass, and so on. More and more people are getting discouraged and leaving.

These are the problems with spell DC. As Mnemor said, spell damage is another Pandora's box, and worse than this one. Hang in there, Tonquin. Fixing this won't be easy without some drastic changes.
 
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Raedier

The Druid
A suggestion on how to make the 2+ enhancement spell DC topaz augments less of a hassle regarding gearing: add a new recipe to the gianthold altar that combines three +2 topazes of any type into one ML30 topaz that gives +3 enhancement bonus to all schools.
 
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