U81 Preview 1 - DC Initiative Wave 2

[Fisto Mk I]

I can say with complete certainty that those feats missing their antirequisites is 100% a bug.

Your words directly opposite to what @SteelStar say once.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Steelstar confirmed this was working as intended

this is the part that gets me.

how are we supposed to know whats a bug and whats not when the devs tell us its not a bug and then say its now a bug?

 

[Fisto Mk I]

this is the part that gets me.
how are we supposed to know whats a bug and whats not when the devs tell us its not a bug and then say its now a bug?

Exactly.

 

[Noite Talo]

Good changes all around. I do have one suggestion though.

Could the pre-reqs for Greater Spell Focus be either the appropriate Spell Focus feat, or Past Life: Arcane Initiate?
Yeah it does mean if you want to spend feats for GSF multiple times you get +2 DC over +1 for regular SF, but that seems okay.

It would be nice to see active past life feats as a whole be integrated into feat structures more, providing their benefit and meeting an appropriate pre-req.

 

[Griglok]

Ty for listening to the feedback! Great changes.

 

[jrazumich]

I'm guessing that Epic/Legendary Spell Focus stack with each other (giving +5 to all schools), but will they stack with the +3 for Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus for the individual school? So, if you took Spell/Greater Spell Focus: Illusion and also Epic/Legendary Spell Focus would you get +8 to Illusion DCs?

 

[Monkey_Archer]

I'm guessing that Epic/Legendary Spell Focus stack with each other (giving +5 to all schools), but will they stack with the +3 for Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus for the individual school? So, if you took Spell/Greater Spell Focus: Illusion and also Epic/Legendary Spell Focus would you get +8 to Illusion DCs?

Yes they stack for +8 total.

Interestingly, since the full DC bonus is no longer limited by the speciality stacking trick, in theory you could have +8 to all schools if you were to waste all your feats on it.

 

[rabidfox]

I'm guessing that Epic/Legendary Spell Focus stack with each other (giving +5 to all schools), but will they stack with the +3 for Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus for the individual school? So, if you took Spell/Greater Spell Focus: Illusion and also Epic/Legendary Spell Focus would you get +8 to Illusion DCs?

You'd have SF + GSF + ESF + LSF.
And for alternative schools you'd have ESF + LSF + Spell Focus Specialty

 

[Elisser]

Nice step in helpful direction vs npc bloat and Melee/Trickster DCs, but not balanced comparatively.

Seems to me that "Spell Focus Specialty" (at lvl31+) as is, is out of place with the new changes now.
- Why not make it destiny bonus to all schools like the epic and legendary changes?
- Or otherwise it should apply to the original heroic specific focus school as a more literal phrase definition match and to match the consistency of previous conversation (U80DC Equipment changes) around upping individual spell schools.
- Alternatively create both of those options making 2 separate feats -
1. Destiny feat +2/3 to all schools (lvl31+); and
2. "Spell Focus Specialty 'school'" feat matching heroic specialty feat school (lvl31+).

Keep up the good work and thanks for addressing fixes/improvements.

 

[Vish]

these are much needed changes and updates. thx

 

[Krishna Devi]

Very happy with these changes Thank you

 

[Lichcrak]

DC bump raises the floor okay no complaint on that.

But seriously where's the spell damage rework? Nukers sitting outside dreaming of scraps while ranged are feasting and melee are eating the scraps.

 

[l_remmie]

Good but not quite enough.

+6 school1 / +3 school2 used to cost 7 feats.
Now you get:
+8 school1 / +5 others costs 4 feats.

+2 maximum DC isn't quite enough to help people without 210k sentiwlent weapons to land a spell.

Let's hope part3: caster enhancement trees comes soon.

 

[Smokewolf]

this is the part that gets me.

how are we supposed to know whats a bug and whats not when the devs tell us its not a bug and then say its now a bug?

When the Dev's say WAI, its a hint that SSG has opt'd to take the easy way out.

 

[Krishna Devi]

Caster DC: Great job! Thank you
Caster DPS: ?

 

[justin credible]

The mental toughness feats are a trap. 1% spell crit chance, really? And the SP is negligible. If you're struggling to squeeze in spell focus, drop those.

they are mandatory
can you imagine being a sorc and entering a party with only 7400sp and there is another sorc in the group with >8000
you would be spellpoint mogged

but seriously, while they are handing out token caster buffs, i would like mental toughness feats to also reduce the cost of spells by 10%

 

[Mnemor]

Nukers have cared about DCs for many years. Higher DCs = higher damage for spells that save for half.


I had similar concerns about the feat tax. Let's take a closer look, using the Feylock build I posted where I was double dipping with the Spell Specialty feats:

Heroic Levels:
1 Quicken Spell, Fey Pact
3 Past Life: Arcane Initiate
4 CHA +1
6 Mental Toughness
8 CHA +1
9 Improved Mental Toughness
12 Spell Focus: Evocation, CHA +1
15 Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
16 CHA +1
18 Spell Focus: Conjuration
20 CHA +1

Epic Levels:
21 Epic Eldritch Blast
22 Epic Pact Dice
24 Embolden Spell, CHA +1
25 Epic Spell Power: Sonic
27 Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration
28 Epic Spell Power: Force
30 Epic Spell Focus: Evocation, Scion of the Feywild

Legendary Levels:
31 Spell Specialty: Conjuration
32 CHA +1
33 Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration
34 Spell Specialty: Evocation

The Spell Specialty feats will now enforce anti-requisites to prevent the above. But, Epic Spell Focus now covers all schools rather than a single school. That means:

18 Spell Focus: Conjuration -> this is freed up, so you have a heroic feat available for Piercing. Obviously you'll want to reorder the feat list so you take it earlier.

27 Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration -> this is freed up, so you have an epic feat available for the Piercing Mastery feat.

33 Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration -> this is freed up for Legendary Spell Focus

34 Spell Specialty: Evocation -> this is freed up because you can no longer double dip.

So even before you choose a level 36 feat, you've freed up one feet. And this is on a Warlock which does have a feat tax compared to other nukers because of Epic Eldritch Blast/Pact Dice.

If you're a sorcerer, alchemist or druid you don't need the two piercing feats since elemental bypass is built in. So you can still have the metamagics and the mental toughness feats.

That build doesn't use metamagic feats xD.

-----------------

Honestly, it seems like bloat is the norm for caster designs. Not only do they have a feat bloat with about 6 times more stats than martial users (thanks to the split on schools and elements), but they also have a serious bloat in feats.

A build like the sorcerer or druid, with only 7 heroic feats: 5 are metamagic feats that they can't do without. Maximize, empower, heighten, enlarge, quicken. That leaves two. Mental toughness would be a logical choice, but... if you don't hit the DCs, you aren't doing damage, so... I suppose the PL wizard will now be forgotten for these builds. Two spell focus, replace embolden with epic spell focus. Well, I suppose it's feasible, but the increase in DC is debatable in the end (in relation to the high STs that exist today, and growing rapidly with each level increase). And there's no room for spell penetration, so be careful if you want to use mass hold in this context where spell resistance is growing absurdly.

Two feats for piercing are also too much for casters without stripping. Even for wizards. They are TWO feats and for gettting a poor version os the true stripping of the A+ casters, Seriously, devs. Do it ONE feat, and with fluid casting, al least.

Honestly, devs, wake up. You're moving casters into unsustainable positions. And why? Because you don't want to smooth out the curve at which mobs acquire their saves and because you don't want to help generalist casting. It's all so surreal. You're moving so far away from D&D only to create more and more problems and further unbalance the classes.

 

[Lazuli]

Please, make epic spell focus only require one spell focus or wizard PL (instead of greater spell focus). There are many builds that don't have enough feats for everything. Keep in mind that the five metamagic feats are mandatory for most casters. And DC is needed even for nukers. Make greater spell focus an option outside oof the chain for those builds that can afford it.

Martial feat chains have been streamlined a lot throughout the game's history. Caster feat chains are becoming increasingly complex. Please, no. It's fine to have options for those who can afford them, but don't create enormous feat chains. You streamlined them for Martial because long feat chains are bad, so what's the point of making them more complex for casters?

Or start giving feats in the caster enhancement trees, because this is not sustainable.

 

[mikarddo]

So, a sorc would need the following feats:

Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen
SF Evoc, GSF Evoc
Wiz PL
Max, Empower, Heighten, Enlarge, Quicken
Epic Spell Pen, Epic Spell Focus
Embolden, Wellspring, BoGW
Ruin, GRuin
Spell Focus Speciality, Legendary Spell Focus

Thats approximately ALOT more feats than a sorc has available - and even with those feats the sorc is still significantly worse than a martial dps?

It is all well and good to add better numbers - but if there is no room for those feats it helps not at all! Rookie mistake really.

 

[Krishna Devi]

Nukers have cared about DCs for many years. Higher DCs = higher damage for spells that save for half.
Heroic Levels:
1 Quicken Spell, Fey Pact
3 Past Life: Arcane Initiate
4 CHA +1
6 Mental Toughness
8 CHA +1
9 Improved Mental Toughness
12 Spell Focus: Evocation, CHA +1
15 Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
16 CHA +1
18 Spell Focus: Conjuration
20 CHA +1

Epic Levels:
21 Epic Eldritch Blast
22 Epic Pact Dice
24 Embolden Spell, CHA +1
25 Epic Spell Power: Sonic
27 Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration
28 Epic Spell Power: Force
30 Epic Spell Focus: Evocation, Scion of the Feywild

Legendary Levels:
31 Spell Specialty: Conjuration
32 CHA +1
33 Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration
34 Spell Specialty: Evocation

If you're a sorcerer, alchemist or druid you don't need the two piercing feats since elemental bypass is built in. So you can still have the metamagics and the mental toughness feats.

Thank you for the list, Ying. I still think the nukers have a valid point though. You've left out enlarge, heighten, empower, maximize, intensify, and wellspring. And many will also like to fit in ruin, grtr ruin & glacial wrath.

Actually I think its fine that nukers can't fit in all the DC & Caster-DPS feats. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. And I like that inherently wizards (with their extra feats) are getting some love.

Thank you again for your post