U82 Lamannia Preview 1 - Global Weapon Combat Changes

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gemini-Dragon

Well-known member
I think all the balance changes in this update move the game it the right direction. With the exception of uncapping doublestrike. End game melee dps is in a good place. This is an unneeded buff. That game is too easy right now on r10 and this melee dps increase will just make it worse.
 

mikarddo

Well-known member
So I've been doing a deep dive on all the possible doublestrike stacking builds. Here's my rough conclusion so far

1) Every character can currently hit about 70 doublestrike from pastlives/gear alone. Combine this with 30% reaper boost and we have a baseline 100% doublestrike

2) Every pure class in the game has between 10% and 19% untyped doublestrike available. The exception being dragonlord and barbarian, which are conveniently the only 2 classes with access to +2 multiplier, so I think that's fair. Some specific multiclass builds such as swashbucking battle engineer warpriest can hit around 30% doublestrike, but I'm not sure this is a problem though given the dps loss in other areas for those builds.

3) All builds can get up to 21% doublestrike from destinies.

4) Combined, this allows virtually all melee builds to go from 100 capped doublestrike to somewhere between 130-150 depending on build, ie a 15-25% increase in total dps. I believe this is fairly balanced and reasonable.

5) There are only 3 exceptions to this: Vistani builds, 2 monk splash builds, and acrobat. Adding 30%/40%/45% doublestrike respectively. I believe this is where this buff goes too far. 30-40% additional doublestrike essentially makes one of these mandatory for all dps builds, massively limiting build options. Vistani is already the top melee dps, they definitely don't need an additional 15% dps above other builds.

6) The solution offered of adding more sources of moral bonus to doublestrike I believe is not ideal. For one, I think the total of nearly +50% dps is too much of a buff, and second, it will just be picking winners. ALL builds will need a source of moral doublestrike. Its just too powerful not to have. Its essentially trance 2.0. I think the better option would be to remove it entirely before it becomes this.

Nice analyses. Someone else posted a breakdown with 200 ds for a monk

Why do you think a 20% dps buff to melee is fair? It is entirely out of order to me when the game is too easy and caster are far behind melee.

I do not see any need to buff melee dps
 
Last edited:

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
Nice analyses. Someone else posted a breakdown with 200 ds for a monk

Why do you think a 20% dps buff to melee is fair? It is entirely out of order to be when the game is too easy and caster are far behind melee.

I do not see any need to buff melee dps
I think its fair relative to ranged. Using the experiment Y tests, Repeaters on live can do 150k+, and will be nerfed down to ~125k. Bows are getting buffed to around the same range apparently (I haven't tested this myself though). Most melee on live struggle to hit 100k for the same test, and the few that do break 100k usually do so using power attack and additional debuffs, so it doesn't hold up when ac starts to matter and debuffs get shared with the ranged builds. So 15-25% seems like a fair adjustment to me.

As for the fact that the game is too easy, yes, but that will hopefully get addressed in the reaper scaling adjustment. The proposed 13% damage on R10 is obviously not enough. I'd prefer 5%, but even 10% would at least be enough to override the doublestrike buffs.
 

mikarddo

Well-known member
I think its fair relative to ranged. Using the experiment Y tests, Repeaters on live can do 150k+, and will be nerfed down to ~125k. Bows are getting buffed to around the same range apparently (I haven't tested this myself though). Most melee on live struggle to hit 100k for the same test, and the few that do break 100k usually do so using power attack and additional debuffs, so it doesn't hold up when ac starts to matter and debuffs get shared with the ranged builds. So 15-25% seems like a fair adjustment to me.

As for the fact that the game is too easy, yes, but that will hopefully get addressed in the reaper scaling adjustment. The proposed 13% damage on R10 is obviously not enough. I'd prefer 5%, but even 10% would at least be enough to override the doublestrike buffs.

How much of a buff do casters need then? 100%?

They sure do not seem to be getting any real love despite being far behind. It looks more like a small Nerf.
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
How much of a buff do casters need then? 100%?

They sure do not seem to be getting any real love despite being far behind. It looks more like a small Nerf.
I haven't fully wrapped my head around the caster changes yet. From what I can tell so far, tricksters are getting a small nerf but should still be around 100k dps or so. Cold savants are roughly going to break even at the cost of a feat. I don't have ingame testing atm, but in theory they should be in the 80k to 100k dps range under the same conditions, which I'd say is a bit low for a fully maxed dps build going forward. Most other casters are getting their dps floor raised a bit, but still won't compete with those top 2.

Overall I think the changes seem more focused on closing the gap between underperforming caster and top caster builds, but do little to raise caster damage to that of martials. I don't really want to offer concrete suggestions until I understand the numbers better.
 

QuantumFX

Well-known member
We are looking for a few good places to add comparative morale bonuses, yes.
Killer effects should be replaced with Quick Strike. Killer loses it's usefulness in things like raids because you have fewer sources of stacks.
 

Ying

5000+ hours played
Killer effects should be replaced with Quick Strike. Killer loses it's usefulness in things like raids because you have fewer sources of stacks.
Eh, that doesn't work in Deepwood Stalker which is both a melee and ranged tree.
 

QuantumFX

Well-known member
Eh, that doesn't work in Deepwood Stalker which is both a melee and ranged tree.
Give us a ranged enhancement on the multiselector called Quick Shot. It's not like we don't have effects like that in the rest of DWS.
 

Drakmoon

Active member
Thanks for the discussion, everyone. I want to jump in with a few thoughts on S&B (Sword and Board), because I think it really needs some love in this pass.

Honestly, my main suggestions are pretty simple. First, move Vanguard's attack speed bonus to Core 3 or 4, or somewhere else. Right now it's buried so deep that you have to invest a ton just to make the style work at all. If it were earlier, more classes—Clerics, Favored Souls, even Barbarians—could actually use a shield without feeling like they're wasting their build.

Second, if the shield's internal cooldown has to stay at 1 second, then shield damage needs to go up. The way it works now, building attack speed actually hurts you because you just push past the proc window without getting more bashes. And shield bashes are way weaker than main-hand attacks. That's a big reason why the style feels so bad.

Third, this update really needs to look at how shields bypass DR. Weapons have material types, alignments, special properties—shields don't. They're stuck with whatever their base damage type gives them, which is often nothing. If S&B is supposed to be viable, it needs a way to punch through DR in high-level content. Maybe let shields inherit the main-hand weapon's DR bypass, or add a Vanguard enhancement or Shield Mastery feat that grants a specific bypass like Cold Iron or Silver. Or a "Shield Bashing" weapon enchantment.

I'm not asking for S&B to match THF or SWF in raw DPS. That's not the point. But it should at least be viable without a Vanguard multiclass tax, and it should offer a real trade-off: less offense, but meaningfully more defense. Right now it just feels like less offense and defense that isn't worth the cost.

If U82 is about bringing outliers together and making underperforming styles feel better, S&B is a clear candidate. I'd love to hear what others think.
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
I haven't fully wrapped my head around the caster changes yet. From what I can tell so far, tricksters are getting a small nerf but should still be around 100k dps or so. Cold savants are roughly going to break even at the cost of a feat. I don't have ingame testing atm, but in theory they should be in the 80k to 100k dps range under the same conditions, which I'd say is a bit low for a fully maxed dps build going forward. Most other casters are getting their dps floor raised a bit, but still won't compete with those top 2.

Overall I think the changes seem more focused on closing the gap between underperforming caster and top caster builds, but do little to raise caster damage to that of martials. I don't really want to offer concrete suggestions until I understand the numbers better.
I've never been able to break more than 80K on a caster except Trickster. I would guess that would stay near the top end, given the positive and negative changes.

Without using something like Timestop, which IMO doesn't really count for real DPS testing to me as it is a 1 time use thing that boosts everyone.
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
I haven't fully wrapped my head around the caster changes yet. From what I can tell so far, tricksters are getting a small nerf but should still be around 100k dps or so. Cold savants are roughly going to break even at the cost of a feat. I don't have ingame testing atm, but in theory they should be in the 80k to 100k dps range under the same conditions, which I'd say is a bit low for a fully maxed dps build going forward. Most other casters are getting their dps floor raised a bit, but still won't compete with those top 2.

Overall I think the changes seem more focused on closing the gap between underperforming caster and top caster builds, but do little to raise caster damage to that of martials. I don't really want to offer concrete suggestions until I understand the numbers better.
I think we are going to see a lot of bows running around, would be my guess, as ranged has just got some basic advantages over melee. Bows are appealing to more people if they have the same damage, and I didn't test it, but it sounds like they fire faster now, which makes them feel better.

Wonder where Shuriken will net out?
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
From 19% to 35% dps down? Guys like @Ying or @Unsinful create another pally bow builds, guys like me take long vacation to play SW:ZC, BG3, replay Dishonored 2 etc etc...
Right, but it was super high before; they are definitely intending to lower the max. Probably still like 12-18s on experiment Y.

Still probably ~40k more than the best non-trickster caster.
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
I've never been able to break more than 80K on a caster except Trickster. I would guess that would stay near the top end, given the positive and negative changes.

Without using something like Timestop, which IMO doesn't really count for real DPS testing to me as it is a 1 time use thing that boosts everyone.
The timestop caveat is and oddity for build comparisons. Sure its not representative of your sustainable dps, but then neither is Inexorable advance or Action hero, yet those get used in these sort of tests. If you apply a no epic moment caveat to all builds then an 80k sustainable dps sorc is actually pretty close to where ranged builds will end up with the current changes I believe, need to do more testing to confirm though.

I think casters need better epic moments.
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
The timestop caveat is and oddity for build comparisons. Sure its not representative of your sustainable dps, but then neither is Inexorable advance or Action hero, yet those get used in these sort of tests. If you apply a no epic moment caveat to all builds then an 80k sustainable dps sorc is actually pretty close to where ranged builds will end up with the current changes I believe, need to do more testing to confirm though.

I think casters need better epic moments.
I don't think I can hit 80k anymore; that was pre-proc nerf. I am not sure where it would net out once all these changes hit.

I think I would probably need time stop now to hit 80k.

The fact is, most casters are in the 50-60k range at best right now on current production. There are a couple of outliers, like Cold Sorc and H-Elf Sorc, that might hit 70-80k.
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
Even 35% down would still be ahead of most other builds. 19% might even still be near the top.
Add inevitable DR problems after U82 from which the bow builds is almost free - and you will better understand my feelings... mebbe... 8)
Simply put - the effort required to make the post-U82 game funny to me again makes this game absolutely not funny.
Witcher 3: Remastered?
I read the books of сomrade Sapkovsky, I do not need to play a pitiful semblance of the stories he told... But for those who like this franchise - why not? 8)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top