Gemini-Dragon
Well-known member
It looks like horn of thunder is. Atleast from what I can see on lamannia
U82 Lamannia Preview 1 - Masteries & Spell Pass
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Had to edit my post forgot to name the SLA I was talking about. Thanks for letting me know. That’s a pretty big hit to bard casters.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
What's your actual caster level vs the MCL on it on live? You only have 20 class levels, so you'd need bonus CL from somewhere to take advantage of it being MCL25. Off-hand I think there's:
+1 from bard songs, so you'd lose 1 potential CL there as you'd be cap at MCL20.
Stormsinger has +1 CL in the cores 5/6 but it also has +1 MCL in those cores too; so you'd get both those CL added on.
Dragonborn gives +1 CL but it also gives +2 MCL, so a dragon born would be able to use the 1 CL from bard songs too.
Going from MCL25 to 20 might not be as a big a difference as it sounds. Although maybe SSG will make an exception for it and keep it at MCL25.
Gemini-Dragon
Well-known member
Right now on live I have horn of thunder caster level 31 and max of 35. I don’t have any items to increase caster level. I could get it higher. I transferred to Lam: Horn is caster level 30 with a MCL of 30.
I TR’d my bard caster so going by memory but I think you hit all the sources of increasing bard caster level. I take the spellsinger capstone so I would be missing the last MCL bonus from core 6 of stormsinger. I do run the toon as a Dragonborn so I was getting that boost to MCL.
Hoping you're right about the difference not being that big a deal because I actually like a lot of the changes they are making.
Now that I think about it, the reaper penalty removal alone probably offsets any damage I’d lose due to lower MCL.
Now that you say caster level 31 with a max of 35 that sounds right. But Rabid’s breakdown of sources for bard is correct so I’m not sure where I was getting those extra caster levels. Glad it seems close to the same on Lam.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
On live you'd have CL 20 from 20 bard. MCL 25 for the spell. Epic/legendary knowledge give +1 CL/MCL every other level, so at 36 that's +8. That'd be CL28/MCL33 and you're at 31/35; so you're getting +3 CL and +2 MCL from somewhere.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
Going from 31 to 30 is a like 3.3% difference on that spell. Any loss in damage can be annoying, but it's not huge.
SSG could solve that issue and make bards more popular by changing spell singer's Song of Arcane Might from +1 CL via song to +1 CL/+1 MCL via song. But that might be a bit too strong an ability.
edit: or leave the song +1 CL but add a passive non-song effect to that same enhancement that gives the bard a +1 MCL to be able to take advantage of the song.
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Nope not huge at all. Looking forward to TR’ing back into the build to see how the changes and new DC gear options play out.
Lotoc
Well-known member
Quick and dirty suggestion
Primal Avatar is a tree themed heavily around multi-elemental casting, from the mantles to the SLAs to the cores, everything is combining at least two elements.
The tier 4 and 5 are notoriously underwhelming relative to other casters.
Multi element casting is very taxing on feats and gearing.
Now the suggestion
Make Improved Intensify in t5 PA a multiselector with a Master of X feat selection between Fire, Light, Alignment, Force, Cold, Lightning, Sonic, Poison and Acid.
Primal Avatar is a tree themed heavily around multi-elemental casting, from the mantles to the SLAs to the cores, everything is combining at least two elements.
The tier 4 and 5 are notoriously underwhelming relative to other casters.
Multi element casting is very taxing on feats and gearing.
Now the suggestion
Make Improved Intensify in t5 PA a multiselector with a Master of X feat selection between Fire, Light, Alignment, Force, Cold, Lightning, Sonic, Poison and Acid.
Gemini-Dragon
Well-known member
Caster levels: 20 bard, 8 from knowledge, 2 from stormsinger, 1 from the bard song bonus is 31. With a MCL of 35. Last life I had a caster level of 33 with Horn (I was a Dragonborn with a different filigree set up). It is just annoying that this was changed without documentation. Like Iceberg and Thunderstroke not being in the notes.
Diamondaxe
Member
I do appreciate the efforts to make casters more interesting. Cantrips are nice and fun, but virtually every rule book in D&D history came with new spells...and I was hoping for more than new level 0 spells. Some 8th and and ninth level illusions would have been nice. Gate would be great. Wish!!! OK probably too much.None.
SSG is doing completely unnecessary work. There is no point in upgrading low-level spells.
Besides, the D&D system itself isn't designed for that.As soon as a player gains access to higher-level spells, all the low-level ones simply fall out of use. Yes, in the tabletop game, you can fill low-level slots with utility spells. In computer games, there’s nothing to swap them with.
But there's no point in it anyway. Even if you boost all spells to the point where they're all good at any point in the game, a Wizard, for example, has 45 spell slots. Can anyone imagine a player filling all 45 slots with offensive spells and using them ALL ? (In a single battle, yeah !).
No one in their right mind would do that ! Four or five spells will be used (plus, five buttons are convenient to press on the keyboard when playing with WASD), and that’s it.
None of these "tweaked" spells and even the the new cantrips are in demand, and no one will use them.
SSG is merely pretending to buff casters, while the developers are implementing yet another round of massive nerfs that make playing casters simply impossible.
Do you really need to ask ?
Thunderstroke and Iceberg had their damage reduced? I assumed since they were single target they were left alone.
Melee are set to become the great winner due to Dstrike having the cap removed. Way too big a buff
So, you have it entirely wrong.
Gemini-Dragon
Well-known member
Fairly certain Iceberg and Thunderstroke were 1d6+24 on Lamannia. Live they’re 1d6+28 per caster level.
Lotoc
Well-known member
It's gonna be funny how much it sets barbarians behind the pack purely because barbarian trees have a grand total of zero doublestrike and they struggle to reach the current cap outside boosts.
2HF barbs are getting a very nice boost from converting strikethough to melee power though. And kukri barbs atleast have a boost from VKF. So I do not think it will be too bad but we shall see.
I still hope SSG reconsiders the buff to DStrike. It seems entirely out of order to me - especially while they are dealing casters what appears to be a small nerf. Completely backwards in mu opinion.
Lotoc
Well-known member
well for one, Iceberg and Thunderstroke are going to gain 4 caster levels from the +5 mcl to single target spell mcl and 16d6+3 from Master feats so I wouldn't worry too much about them losing 4 damage per caster level from d6+28.
changes to effect stacking and killing off Elder's Knowledge will make room to fit in more effects, potentially things like CL/MCL bonuses and rider effects if part of the scope of the balance pass is reconsidering how they allocate stat bonuses.
But also, lockin is only 1/3rd uptime and it's honestly not really enough to close the gap of 30% attack speed/ double hit rate, worse weapon crit profiles and better scaling with non statmod damage bonuses, imbues and riders.
This is a direct nerf to healing spells. This also nerfs early heroic spellcasting. This matters. The game exists as early as level 1 but the drift lately seems unconcerned with maintaining any enjoyable gameplay before level 30.
It seems as though the Meta Magic nerf was done to counter the effects of increasing max caster levels of damage spells. But then why were caster levels raised if they end up needing a counter that nerfs unrelated areas? The spell situation would have been in a better place if they weren't touched in the first place.
As a healer main, I'm not happy with this at all. Please find something else to nerf.
Frantik
Well-known member
Still angry, so here goes. A simple spell pass with 2 minutes of thinking about it.
(1) I'll keep SSG's idea about making all single target spells have MCL 25,
(2) [fine] keep AoE spells at MCL20 if that makes you happy,
(3) each epic and legendary level grants +10 base damage to a single target spell,
(4) each epic and legendary level grants +5 base damage to an AoE spell,
(5) throw the Master of Nonsense feats in the trash can, I [we?] don't want to spend 2 epic feats on such garbage,
(6) restore individual spell damage (not including Warlock blasts) to pre Update 58 levels.
So simple huh? Let's work with this, test then adjust as necessary in say 6 months.
No thanks needed, SSG, just doing my job... a job that requires using my brain and applying simple maths. It ain't difficult.
We don't want more nerfs to casters, we want casters to be viable in epics through to end game. It really isn't that tricky a concept to wrap your head around.
(1) I'll keep SSG's idea about making all single target spells have MCL 25,
(2) [fine] keep AoE spells at MCL20 if that makes you happy,
(3) each epic and legendary level grants +10 base damage to a single target spell,
(4) each epic and legendary level grants +5 base damage to an AoE spell,
(5) throw the Master of Nonsense feats in the trash can, I [we?] don't want to spend 2 epic feats on such garbage,
(6) restore individual spell damage (not including Warlock blasts) to pre Update 58 levels.
So simple huh? Let's work with this, test then adjust as necessary in say 6 months.
No thanks needed, SSG, just doing my job... a job that requires using my brain and applying simple maths. It ain't difficult.
We don't want more nerfs to casters, we want casters to be viable in epics through to end game. It really isn't that tricky a concept to wrap your head around.
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