U82 Preview 1 - Monster DR Rework

[l_remmie]

A base 50% is too much and a too simplistic approach to the problem. DR is an "all downside" mechanic that frustrates players to add some difficulty and gearing requirements. I totally agree on the revamp and that the game could use it, but it needs to be done with tact.

I would set a 10% penalty at normal difficulty.
15% at hard.
25% at elite
33% at reaper1.
Then scale it up to 50% at r10.

Raids in particular have many enemies with varies DR or even double DR. And what they are is never advertised.
Adding a 50% shield on raidbosses and their millions of hitpoints would have a drastic effect on raid inclusivity. Less equipped players will be forced out and less PUGs would be hosted.

Players who do not run reaper1 or higher do so because they do not have the gear, past lives and game experience to join the r1 zerg-pugs. A 50% blanket debuff on their damage is the absolute last thing that group of players need.

 

[Bjond]

Hmm. I could get behind L1 BPS Breaking Quivers dropping in the latest raid. General population would be in an uproar, but being 95% raid focused myself, driving everyone into trying the latest raid would end up with maybe a 5~10% net gain in overall raiding population as some would like it and stick for more.

 

[Raedier]

I think you missed the part about material DR not being that big a deal. The fuss is over blunt/slash/pierce.

Yes, that's why u swap from let's say longsword to warhammer for example, with added bypass and keen, the only thing then missing is Dust and sentient and maybe a few obscure alignment bypasses if you can't augment those.

I realize not everyone wants to swap weapons 5 times per minute, i've already been doing that to max dps on casters and melee for years and it's a personal choice however i'm not sure if weapon swapping being forced on people is healthy for the game.

 

[Xgya]

Small suggestion: add Bludgeon to the flags included in VKF T5 Blessed Blades

It feels a bit punitive that Skeletons are essentially unbreakable DR for a Vistani build - they have no supported Bludgeon option (you can go with kukris for zombies) - when Vistani is supposed to be a tree dedicated to fighting undead. Especially if you're T5 in it.

Edit: except Raellia I guess for pure cold damage, but that's only helpful at cap, where there isn't as many skeletons as heroic and epic

A not-unreasonable demand.

If you want to make it thematic, just add this tidbit: "You ignore the Damage Reduction of all Undead".
It won't help against non-Undead, but it'll be the only known way to bypass Mummy DR (for example). A decent tradeoff that also happens to make the ability more flavorful in the direction you were already hinting at.

 

[mikarddo]

Howdy all! Thanks for your feedback so far and for trying things out on Lamannia!

You all are right that changing weapon types is much harder than finding augments or a friendly artificer for things like Good or Adamantine, and that monsters with dr/- are getting a huge boost to their defenses. So, for Preview 2, we're thinking that monsters with Bludgeon, Piercing, Slashing, or Bane (the internal name for dr/-) DR will only have a 25% reduction to damage taken, rather than the full 50%.

This is going to be hard to explain succinctly, but as a note, if a monster has both b/p/s/bane DR and another kind of DR, and the b/p/s/bane DR is higher in original magnitude, it will take 25% less even if you are also not breaking the other DR. For example, a Clay Golem with DR/Bludgeon 10 and DR/Adamantine 1, if you use a regular ol steel dagger, you'll only do 25% less damage because that bludgeon DR is higher than the adamantine DR in original magnitude. If it had DR/Bludgeon 1 and DR/Adamantine 10, you'd do 50% less for not breaking Adamantine, since the Adamantine is higher. If you were using an Adamantine dagger, you'd do 25% less, because now the only DR that applies is Bludgeoning. If you switched to a steel mace, you'd do 50% less, because of the Adamantine DR.

Of course, all of this is still subject to change, so please keep the feedback coming! Thank you!

Perfect, thank you. Dont change a thing.

 

[Bjond]

Yes, that's why u swap from let's say longsword to warhammer for example, with added alignment bypass and keen, the only thing then missing is Dust and keen.

No you don't. A weapon type swap is much worse than a 25% DR hit and many are worse than a 50% DR. No one would willingly self-gimp by 60~70% to get around a 25% penalty. What about trees that are locked to a single type (eg. Acrobat)?

You're assuming the entire game is playing nothing but fighter.

A not-unreasonable demand [re: adding bypass types to VKF]

Spot fixing trees creates huge game imbalances. The DR problem is global, the fix needs to be equally global. Aren't we tired of all the VKF Dragonlords or is the intent to make it the one true build to rule them all?

 

[Ilvati]

Yes, that's why u swap from let's say longsword to warhammer for example, with added bypass and keen, the only thing then missing is Dust and sentient and maybe a few obscure alignment bypasses if you can't augment those.

The best option is probably fallen age. Keen / Aligned, can accept sent. Two aug slots so 2 metals (most melees will have cold iron already from FoTW). This is probably what people will do. Still doesn't solve DR/Bane or all the issues with two sent gems etc. Also agreed Knights Training weapons will be the new non-monk meta.

Basically its like people said to casters for years -- just use an element you aren't specced for. It "works" but it isn't enjoyable -- again notwithstanding the Bane issue. B/P/S and Bane are the real issues -- the metal/alignment are probably fine (certainly at cap where options to deal with it exist).

 

[Raedier]

No you don't. A weapon type swap is much worse than a 25% DR hit and many are worse than a 50% DR. No one would willingly self-gimp by 60~70% to get around a 25% penalty. What about trees that are locked to a single type (eg. Acrobat)?

You're assuming the entire game is playing nothing but fighter.

Spot fixing trees creates huge game imbalances. The DR problem is global, the fix needs to be equally global. Aren't we tired of all the VKF Dragonlords or is the intent to make it the one true build to rule them all?

I'm not saying it's optimal.
I'm saying there are ways to build around it.
combine that with melees getting a substantial, i haven't run the numbers but 0~80?% DPS buff in this patch.
My barb was able to reach 195% DS on lamannia and still shredded the sphinx in WPM on r10 even with massive lagg and the new reaper scaling.
Q staff builds can swap to spear of the mournlands for slashing DR.
Wrap builds can swap to TWF kukri to break slashing.
The real losers are considering DR are uncentered THF builds as mauls and great clubs are atrocious.
SWF and TWF can at least still carry an LGS debuff in the off hand with a keen+material breaker main hand.

Again, i'm not saying any of this is optimal, just trying to specify the problems and how to fix them if they were to be implemented in game.

 

[f1b041b3]

Yes, that's why u swap from let's say longsword to warhammer for example, with added bypass and keen, the only thing then missing is Dust and sentient and maybe a few obscure alignment bypasses if you can't augment those.

I realize not everyone wants to swap weapons 10 times per minute, i've already been doing that to max dps on casters and melee for years and it's a personal choice however i'm not sure if weapon swapping being forced on people is healthy for the game.

Yeah, the only thing missing is everything that makes a weapon powerful. Just swap out your named weapon with rare bonuses to an essence crafted "dr breaker" and also lose sentience, nearly all of your weapon specific bonuses from feats and enhancements, and every weapon effect worth using. Easy peasy, what's the problem? On a warhammer build using Audion or Pestle? Just swap it for a crafted longsword with keen. Same difference, right?

I agree with the latter statement.

The best option is probably fallen age. Keen / Aligned, can accept sent. Two aug slots so 2 metals (most melees will have cold iron already from FoTW). This is probably what people will do.

Calamitous weapons can be made effectively metalline and aligned, and you can fit a debuff on them. I'd rather have the debuff than keen, especially swapping to a bludgeoning weapon as the base threat ranges on bludgeoners are pathetic and you'll lose a host of bonuses from feats and enhancements regardless.

Here's a question for the "just swap it" crowd: If I have to use garbage weapons to fight bosses, then what need do I have in farming rare and raid weapons?

 

[f1b041b3]

B/P/S and Bane are the real issues -- the metal/alignment are probably fine (certainly at cap where options to deal with it exist).

To me, bane isn't the issue - it's the solution. Let everybody get hosed equally. Sure, it'll make bonus damage types useless inside of reaper, but that's better than invalidating the weapons themselves.

(The real solution is to altogether abandon this ridiculous change but that's not gonna happen.)

 

[pinstripedbarbarian]

The solution here isn't swapping to a weapon that covers the right damage type, and suggesting ways to *make* it the answer aren't helping. It's not a legitimate answer to how the game works right now in end game with feats / enhancements / sentient weapons. For a level 5 fighter running around the marketplace? Sure. Level 36 melee class? No.

I don't disagree with the idea of gear-swapping for situations where damage type matters. It just can't be weapons that swap. If there was a "nearly finished" or "sealed in gloom" trinket where the options were all damage bypass stuff (and the item itself was, you know, good enough to take) I would absolutely grab a couple.

Epic Destinies in general could solve a lot of this by giving at least one bypass per tree. If you could cover three types via destinies, one or two extra types via augments and weapon traits, and one or two by enhancements, you'd be able to handle most situations without any big changes.

And for people upset that some classes are better suited for this than others... Yeah. The game is full of situations like that. Refusing to accept any change to the game that encourages you to change up your play style or build style only leads to unsustainable power creep. Making people adapt to DR isn't inherently bad, even if some character types have an easier time doing so. It's only bad if it punishes characters without a means of overcoming it. If that means your barbarian needs to consider one enhancement / feat / augment change from what you're used to, that isn't the end of the world. Ideally, the best performing characters are "hit" harder, but the game will never be perfectly equal across all aspects. Asymmetry is in fact a good thing.

 

[mikarddo]

It is quite appalling to see so many melee complaints about the DR stuff on some _mobs_ when the DStrike buff is huge for _all_ mobs.

Martial dps has had it incredible easy these past few years. The very same plan for ALL mobs - just pure dps with the same optimized weapon for ALL mobs. No need to think at all - just plowing with a single minded plan.

Add a little bump and boom.

Please keep the 25% / 50% DR and have players adjust.

Edit: My comment here is about cap play. For leveling things are different but not really hard and no different from what magic users experience.

 

[Infinight]

It is quite appalling to see so many melee complaints about the DR stuff on some _mobs_ when the DStrike buff is huge for _all_ mobs.

Martial dps has had it incredible easy these past few years. The very same plan for ALL mobs - just pure dps with the same optimized weapon for ALL mobs. No need to think at all - just plowing with a single minded plan.

Add a little bump and boom.

Please keep the 25% / 50% DR and have players adjust.

At level 20 with solar double strike, regular double strike, insightful double strike, quality double strike, some double strike enhancements and a doublestrike buff from an attack that is weapon specific in enhancements i have 42% doublestrike. If i swashbuckle then its 52%. If i had all 6 doublestrike epic lives which i do not hen its 61. If i was using action boost doublestrike o still do not hit 100%.

When i encounter a quest which is a slog i swap to my iconic level 15 in spare caster gear i have and nuke the entire quest from orbit.

Something to think about in terms of game design is.. a lot of the tools people are mentioning are not available in heroics, even enhancements mean choosing between javing your heal ability or some other cool thing or waiting to play your build and doing twice as much damage in a current quest. So why is the damage penalty hitting heroics equally with epics who have access to those tools?

Lastly, from a player psychology point of view.. you could swap out your ideal weapon for a weapon that does more damage in this one quest with a high density of tanky mobs... or you could just not do that and not play that quest. And play any other quest tjat gives the same xp.. theres going to be people whos interaction with this mechanic ends up that way.

 

[f1b041b3]

It is quite appalling to see so many melee complaints about the DR stuff on some _mobs_ when the DStrike buff is huge for _all_ mobs.

Martial dps has had it incredible easy these past few years. The very same plan for ALL mobs - just pure dps with the same optimized weapon for ALL mobs. No need to think at all - just plowing with a single minded plan.

Add a little bump and boom.

Please keep the 25% / 50% DR and have players adjust.

Yeah, we get it - you're a caster and it's revenge time. The problem is that your anger is misdirected. Also, "The very same plan for ALL mobs - just pure dps with the same optimized weapon for ALL mobs. No need to think at all - just plowing with a single minded plan." describes nukers to a T, does it not?

 

[mikarddo]

Yeah, we get it - you're a caster and it's revenge time. The problem is that your anger is misdirected. Also, "The very same plan for ALL mobs - just pure dps with the same optimized weapon for ALL mobs. No need to think at all - just plowing with a single minded plan." describes nukers to a T, does it not?

I currently play a Tank, a Heal bot, an Inq and a Barb at cap. I play a monk for leveling. Note the complete lack of casters.

Also, as a caster you cannot finger all mobs, you cannot mass hold all mobs etc, etc. So, very much no to casters being able to use the same game plan for all mobs.

So, you probably do not get it at all.

 

[mikarddo]

At level 20 with solar double strike, regular double strike, insightful double strike, quality double strike, some double strike enhancements and a doublestrike buff from an attack that is weapon specific in enhancements i have 42% doublestrike. If i swashbuckle then its 52%. If i had all 6 doublestrike epic lives which i do not hen its 61. If i was using action boost doublestrike o still do not hit 100%.

You are very much correct about leveling. My comment was about cap play and I should have made that clear.

But that is no different than an air sorc being gimp in the Archons chains in heroics.

But either way leveling is dirty easy.

 

[Alternative]

Howdy all! Thanks for your feedback so far and for trying things out on Lamannia!

You all are right that changing weapon types is much harder than finding augments or a friendly artificer for things like Good or Adamantine,

Finding augs is less of an issue than finding slots for them. Especially at end game where we have sentience and only two aug slots per weapon. Having multiple alts and changing builds often (as is natural in a game based around reincarnation) expecting us to have multiple sentient weapons on each character is adding an extra grind that is going to scale up uncontrollably.

Finding a friendly (or even unfriendly) artificer post ranged changes might not be easy either.

One lightweight idea would be adding one more aug slot to weapons lvl 30+, or maybe add DR breaking filigrees to existing sets.

Possibly you could add one DR bypass to each martial destiny that doesn't have one? Fury already has cold iron, LD could get adamantine somewhere, shadowdancer gets silver. Crusader has chars alignment. That way people can pick dr bypasses from whichever trees they use and supplement the rest with augs. Would be kinda sad having to use gmof on every build.

Also maybe add destiny feats for alignment bypass.

Finally, please ignore that one butthurt hardcore poster that isn't playing endgame and is clearly trying to poison the well for everyone else.

 

[f1b041b3]

I currently play a Tank, a Heal bot, an Inq and a Barb at cap. I play a monk for leveling. Note the complete lack of casters.

That's a bit hard to believe considering your only concern seems to be for the plight of the noble caster.

Also, as a caster you cannot finger all mobs, you cannot mass hold all mobs etc, etc. So, very much no to casters being able to use the same game plan for all mobs.

And? A martial can't hit on every dice roll. A martial can't bypass all fortification and dodge. A martial can't succeed on all tactics checks, and a martial can't trip an ooze or stun a skeleton (I can say this now that Dragon's Roar has become a whisper). So no, I think it's you that doesn't understand. Casters don't have the monopoly on hardship they think they have.

 

[The Narc2]

It is quite appalling to see so many melee complaints about the DR stuff on some _mobs_ when the DStrike buff is huge for _all_ mobs.

Martial dps has had it incredible easy these past few years. The very same plan for ALL mobs - just pure dps with the same optimized weapon for ALL mobs. No need to think at all - just plowing with a single minded plan.

Add a little bump and boom.

Please keep the 25% / 50% DR and have players adjust.

I Concur

 

[f1b041b3]

I Concur

What is it that you concur with? The false premise that there's even such a thing as an optimized weapon for all situations? That melee players are completely brainless but the cold druid spamming ice flowers every three seconds is playing a game of chess? Or are you just happy that people are annoyed by this?

And for people upset that some classes are better suited for this than others... Yeah. The game is full of situations like that. Refusing to accept any change to the game that encourages you to change up your play style or build style only leads to unsustainable power creep. Making people adapt to DR isn't inherently bad, even if some character types have an easier time doing so.

Here's the thing: targeted nerfs for problem areas are fine. Saying "blanket 50% damage reduction for not breaking dr" for no rhyme or reason isn't. Present a good argument as to why a particular build should have a better or worse time handling dr and I'll support it. I'm not sure this change was thought out at all.