U82 Preview 3 - Summary of Changes since Preview 2

[Lazuli]

Raids have nothing to do with my suggestion.

The reason you would not rely on a dedicated cc:er is because the DPS characters already have their own hyper efficient CC and mobs are instantly AoE bursted down.

If monsters lives longer CC will become more valuable. If the readily available CC from DPS characters are not enough to instantly CC every CC-able monster CC focused characters become more valuable.

Its not rocket science. I suggest you run our posts through an AI if you are struggling.

Raids have everything to do with what you're saying. They are the perfect example of what happens when CC doesn't play an important role.

The problem right now is DPS is too important and too prevalent, Dungeon design does not effectively make players class choices drastically effect tactics and success. Everything, outside push raiding, and I guess arguably in push raiding, in DDO is accomplished with MORE DPS. So, making CC less useful only increases the importance of DPS—as if it weren't high enough already.

There aren't enough Rock-Scissors-Paper mechanics that effect to a significant degree how each quest and encounter is played. Only there are dps, dps, dps, dps. DPS is the catch-all tool, and you can't further inflate its importance by devaluing the other mechanics. If anything is needed, it is to boost the importance of those other mechanics by adding far more elements to dungeons that require them.

I repeat: you have a lot of bad ideas that will destroy half the classes in the game.

 

[Lazuli]

Do you want to increase the difficulty of R10 without increasing power creep? Add a slider at the quest entrance that lets you choose the percentage of mobs that spawn as champions (with the current rate as the minimum, until the 100%) and the frequency of Reapers. That would increase the difficulty while allowing players to control the level of challenge they want to take on.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Raids have everything to do with what you're saying. They are the perfect example of what happens when CC doesn't play an important role.

The problem right now is DPS is too important and too prevalent, Dungeon design does not effectively make players class choices drastically effect tactics and success. Everything, outside push raiding, and I guess arguably in push raiding, in DDO is accomplished with MORE DPS. So, making CC less useful only increases the importance of DPS—as if it weren't high enough already.

There aren't enough Rock-Scissors-Paper mechanics that effect to a significant degree how each quest and encounter is played. Only there are dps, dps, dps, dps. DPS is the catch-all tool, and you can't further inflate its importance by devaluing the other mechanics. If anything is needed, it is to boost the importance of those other mechanics by adding far more elements to dungeons that require them.

I repeat: you have a lot of bad ideas that will destroy half the classes in the game.

Its like you are not reading my posts. At no point did I ask for CC to not play an important role. What makes CC important is that there are a significant amount of CC-able monsters and they pose a threat. I want more of that, not less. But that wont really do much in todays game where it is trivial to CC everything.

Adding a 2-step system for CC does not make CC useless if CC is important to keep to party alive.

 

[Shear-buckler]

Do you want to increase the difficulty of R10 without increasing power creep? Add a slider at the quest entrance that lets you choose the percentage of mobs that spawn as champions (with the current rate as the minimum, until the 100%) and the frequency of Reapers. That would increase the difficulty while allowing players to control the level of challenge they want to take on.

Reaper is the slider. Adding a slider to the slider? Whats next? A slider to the slider to the slider?

 

[Dergex]

Do you want to increase the difficulty of R10 without increasing power creep? Add a slider at the quest entrance that lets you choose the percentage of mobs that spawn as champions (with the current rate as the minimum, until the 100%) and the frequency of Reapers. That would increase the difficulty while allowing players to control the level of challenge they want to take on.

TBH I don't mind when people are asking for more difficulty, but I do mind when they talk about changing the default difficulty that everyone else has to deal with. Sure, not a ton of people play R10 right now. But I'm sure of those people there are at least a number of them that prefer the current level of difficulty.

People want higher difficulty?

Add R11-R15

People want to negate specific mechanics to challenge themselves?

Add a series of toggles that allows for even more difficulty.

Disable CC? Sure.
All Champions? Okay.
Mobs gain a full heal every 10 seconds? Why not.

I don't mind them offering optional difficulty hikes for challenge sake. I'm sure you'd probably feel the same way here too.

My big thing is that whatever optional difficulty hikes they offer.. they need to make sure that there is no additional reward gained for doing it.

If people want to challenge themselves that's cool, but it should not be the new default "elite" mode people decide to run on.

 

[Dergex]

Reaper is the slider. Adding a slider to the slider? Whats next? A slider to the slider to the slider?

An additional slider or toggles to add additional optional challenges, yes.

 

[Shear-buckler]

An additional slider or toggles to add additional optional challenges, yes.

R10 is that already.

 

[Frantik]

Sometimes I wonder if you actually play r10. Current CC is nowhere near making trash mobs a non-factor. CC isn't that powerful right now. There isn't a single pack of mobs that doesn't include several enemies immune to CC and Iks. CC don't work on red bosses either. CC needs to be effective for it to actually drive build choices. I repeat: you only have to look at current raids to see what would happen if the devs did what you're suggesting.

Right now, a group of martial DPS finds it easier to complete the quest than a group relying on CCers with low DPS. That’s because DPS works for everything (bosses and mobs with fom or mind-immunity effects), and clears trash effectively; CC isn't needed. And if you make CC weaker, you’re essentially rendering CCers useless.

I'm sorry, but I have to say it again: you have a lot of bad ideas.

Our friend gets confused. I think they have a clear, unarguable case in their head that doesn't always translate well to "paper".

Right now there are two types of cc; ones that work ok-ish to good at end game and the others that struggle. Let's take melee and casters, do you see any correlation?

 

[Frantik]

If cc is expected to be very, very difficult at high reaper end game content, casters really, really need more dps.

 

[Aklubra]

Inquisitive's Mind like Iron now grants the specific no-fail save bonuses it mentions in its tooltip.

DDO Dev in an interview:

"Balance Pass Designed to Cycle Meta, not Fix Parity." - DDO Dev in an interview.

Well, frankly, I completely ignore any meta. Specially in a game like this, that encourages you to play all classes and races. I just don't see a point in keeping a meta in DDO. As long as it's not terribly weak and it's at least doable to play at high difficulties I'm open to playing it. If I want some cycling, I just change builds. I can do that myself whenever I get bored of a build, thank you. Just TR or switch characters. I certainly won't keep playing inquisitive 1000 times.

I can't understand people who choose the same build every reincarnation just because they hit hard. If I wanted to see big numbers on my screen, I'd play a digital calculator, not an MMO. It is literaly just a bunch of bigger numbers. Obsession with powercreeping looks very childish to me, it's so silly (even more so when we remember that DDO is a game largely populated by gamers who are over 40, married and have children (I still love those parents, anyway, they're awesome)).

 

[Shear-buckler]

Our friend gets confused. I think they have a clear, unarguable case in their head that doesn't always translate well to "paper".

Right now there are two types of cc; ones that work ok-ish to good at end game and the others that struggle. Let's take melee and casters, do you see any correlation?

It would translate perfectly to "paper".

Dont you have a PRR homework to turn in?

 

[Tilomere]

You are getting it backwards. With the hyper efficient CC it becomes practically a non-factor, its an afterthought. If CC required a little more intentionality then CC focused builds would become more important and not less.

There is no such thing as only CC focused builds, as there re only 5 DC feats: Spell Focusx4, Arcane Initiate. Those builds always have 8 (the majority) other feats to pick up, say tankyness. Since those other feats are the majority, it is closer to truth to say there are CC minority focused builds, with something else primary.

 

[rabidfox]

There is no such thing as only CC focused builds, as there re only 5 DC feats: Spell Focusx4, Arcane Initiate. Those builds always have 8 (the majority) other feats to pick up, say tankyness. Since those other feats are the majority, it is closer to truth to say there are CC minority focused builds, with something else primary.

You're missing the 3x spell pen feats there. I got tired of my low life caster feeling bad both for damage and IK/CC issues to the point when I started a TR train for 3x Wiz & 3 FvS past lives to become functional.

 

[Shear-buckler]

There is no such thing as only CC focused builds, as there re only 5 DC feats: Spell Focusx4, Arcane Initiate. Those builds always have 8 (the majority) other feats to pick up, say tankyness. Since those other feats are the majority, it is closer to truth to say there are CC minority focused builds, with something else primary.

Sure. Builds can still be more or less focused on CC. If CC had more meaning one would be more like to pick say Drifting Lotus over Quick Cutter.

 

[Contessor]

Yeah, and it was a stupid change. Thank you to those individuals on asking for it to take longer to complete. I'm going to be a ding dong when I say this. The majority of the people that requested it or wanted it cannot handle it.

Now the quests take longer for no reason with no difficulty changed at all. They should have kept the change until they did the reaper pass that is speculated.

I am sure the people asking do not even play that difficulty. Most people that do are fairly indifferent or do not like that idea. I am not going to claim all.

 

[Sand]

Hi,
I'd like to add some comments/suggestions on the point:

• Divine Crusader: How Dare You Strike Me (Rank 3) now properly respects its cooldown.

As already said, currently this power continuously triggers if the Alt moves across 50% HPs (someone indicated that this is an 'art'). This power has been in this way for years, so I would say 'proven in use'.
IMHO moving to a trigger time of 2 minutes is too long and too nerfing.
I can understand that the intent is to prevent repetitive infinite healing, but especially at high reaper the benefits is quite negligible, even compared with the new feats for melee 'Heroic/Legendary Strenght of Arms'.
Instead of nerfing it so much, I suggest two options, which are compatible with the intent of removing excessive healing:
1. Share the cooldown timer with the 'Consacration' power. This will get benefits also from Rank of 'Consacration', since rank 1 has cooldown 30s, rank 3 has 20s, which is longer than 15s of the power, so no risk of overlapping.
2. Set the trigger time directly 15-20s.

Just as reference, when running quests at R6 I see on my Alt (positive spell power +734, positive healing amp +240) an effect of +127 HP each shot (every 3s), which are peanuts wrt to damages inflicted by monsters.
Regards.

 

[rabidfox]

Hi,
I'd like to add some comments/suggestions on the point:

• Divine Crusader: How Dare You Strike Me (Rank 3) now properly respects its cooldown.

As already said, currently this power continuously triggers if the Alt moves across 50% HPs (someone indicated that this is an 'art'). This power has been in this way for years, so I would say 'proven in use'.
IMHO moving to a trigger time of 2 minutes is too long and too nerfing.
I can understand that the intent is to prevent repetitive infinite healing, but especially at high reaper the benefits is quite negligible, even compared with the new feats for melee 'Heroic/Legendary Strenght of Arms'.
Instead of nerfing it so much, I suggest two options, which are compatible with the intent of removing excessive healing:
1. Share the cooldown timer with the 'Consacration' power. This will get benefits also from Rank of 'Consacration', since rank 1 has cooldown 30s, rank 3 has 20s, which is longer than 15s of the power, so no risk of overlapping.
2. Set the trigger time directly 15-20s.

Just as reference, when running quests at R6 I see on my Alt (positive spell power +734, positive healing amp +240) an effect of +127 HP each shot (every 3s), which are peanuts wrt to damages inflicted by monsters.
Regards.

It's also a 10% increase in melee/ranged damage for everyone standing inside that consecration circle; which could allow for a 100% uptime without ever using the epic strike. If you want the perks of consecration between the corrected cooldown, can just use the epic strike ability.

 

[Frantik]

It would translate perfectly to "paper".

Dont you have a PRR homework to turn in?

I really don't know, sir!? Do I?

 

[Neain]

I am sure the people asking do not even play that difficulty. Most people that do are fairly indifferent or do not like that idea. I am not going to claim all.

because disparaging anyone for asking for something other than what you want is a good tactic.

Sorry, but I do run R10s when im at cap, and I want it to be more than just a group of DPS zerging through. the last time I tried to run a healer focused character in R10s... I felt very useless because either everything died without getting to hit any dps, or the dps got one shot. having a 'real' tank was super rare and that was the only person I was able to keep alive because anyone else... dies in one hit.

I dont think the current damage numbers are low enough to require a real party for an R10. but I will say that if its taking too long to complete and your not having fun, drop the skulls until you find where you are.

As I said in a previous reaper thread and will keep saying, I believe that it would be better for R10 to be actually unbeatable, than for it to be done easily. I think there should be some scale between Elite and R10 and the closer you get to R10, the 'faster' it gets harder until we get to R10 where only the actual best of the best of the most optimized builds can do it in a party. We dont need more R levels to spread out the population any more, we need 'hard' to actually be Hard.

 

[Tilomere]

Sure. Builds can still be more or less focused on CC. If CC had more meaning one would be more like to pick say Drifting Lotus over Quick Cutter.

In good game design, abilities that make the game stale, like mass-hold, dire charge, or drifting lotus have to be discouraged as optimal play. Training wheels have to come off at some point. So from the point of view of good game design, drifting lotus is well-balanced. It's a point of view thing.