Monkey_Archer
Well-known member
Epic strikes should cap at 30 when epic levels end.
Update 66 Preview 1 - Epic Destiny Refresh
- Thread starter Tonquin
- Start date
- Status
Lazuli
Well-known member
yup, capped at the same level we got them. It is not logical.
Lazuli
Well-known member
Since we use the same trees for legendary, not really.
glass_jaws
Well-known member
Yeah either way. Just need consistency.
lol that's a pretty bad way to do game design.
maybe if you had to choose at lvl20 and are stuck with it till 30 I would make sense (the one starts out worse but gets better by the end... although honesty I think that's a bad balance template also)
but since you can switch destinies at will... at lvl20 (or 25) there should be a compelling reason for either. Even if it's small, like one ability doing 1d6+5 on a longer cooldown vs another doing 1d6+4 on a shorter cooldown with no save. Then theoretically the first ability at least has the bigger number and could in it's best case be slightly better (even though in practice every sane player would prefer the other). But plain strictly worse on all fronts looks like such an amateur game design mistake.
Matuse
Join Date: February 2006
One last stab at the EA changes-
The EA tree has always been severely underwhelming, and what save it had took the form of the mantle and its healing.
The Strikes were (and are) not great - they are classed as level 3 spells for whatever reason, so you can't hit Liches or enraged Lailat or other enemies with a level based spell ward with it. Single target, pretty long cooldown, mediocre damage. Pure fire damage on flame pillar for people with no immunity strip? Fire is the most heavily resisted/immune element in the game. Nobody used that. A single target heal pillar for classes who are already swimming in heal options? I doubt many people used that. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
A bunch of very tiny turn undead improvements that only really help half of the classes meant to use the tree, and don't help even that half very much because turn undead has been 'meh' from beta in 2005. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
A flaming sphere SLA? If it hadn't been sitting there for more than a year now, I would have thought that the Devs were doing an April fool's prank. Why does this exist at all? I tried using it just to see if there was some hidden function that made it worth including and also worth 2 destiny points to buy. The flaming spheres that casters in Menechtarum use are actually weirdly ok for them; they are immune to damage, mess with our tab targeting, and drive hirelings crazy. But when we use it? Enemies ignore it, it does take splash damage so it dies almost as soon as it is cast, and it has a full minute cooldown. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
Bonus damage on the mantle - 5 second cooldown seems to be the standard for all of these additive damage mantle bonuses, so ok. But aberrant to the other similar mantles, a 15% chance of activation, so realistically the two bonuses were on 10 second timers because that's how probability works. Also one of them is inescapably fire damage, so it frequently did no damage or would activate on iron golems and heal them. It also was (I think) the only damage-add mantle ability that didn't activate on melee, so any melee that went into that mantle was taking a pretty massive DPS hit to do it. But it's ok, because the (healing side of the) mantle is pretty good!
Stand and be judged - a fairly decent ability in theory that doesn't work in practice. The animation on it is glacial, daze breaks on damage, the stun is conjuration based (and with only Cometfall as a DC conjuration spell, no divines spec for it compared to Evocation or Necromancy, so monsters almost always save), and the damage was tied to a successful stun so it didn't work on bosses ever and rarely on anything else. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
Holy Fireball - Good ability. But half of it is fire and Divines have continue to not have immunity strip. I'm not advocating for Divines to get an immunity strip - honestly I think immunity strip is already way too prevelant, but it is a fact that has to be accounted for when evaluating the effectiveness of an ability. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
Chain Cure- Doesn't work. Like, at all. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
Epic Moment - Mostly used for the action boost runspeed. The blade barrier that has now been turned into the new mantle was not used once every 5 minutes because it doesn't really work, and making it permanent with the new mantle doesn't suddenly cause it to work. I took it to test it, and then respecced out of it and never considered taking it again. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
An overall very underwhelming tree where even the things about it that are good (the healing amp, the resistances, the save bonuses) were completely overshadowed by Unyielding Sentinel which provided almost every aspect of the defense, but also several hundred+ more hitpoints. People who were interested in healing go to tier3 for the MCMW SLA, and then sink the rest of their points elsewhere. The one thing about the tree that gave it appeal was the healing on the mantle. That one thing salvaged all the rest. Was it strong? Yes, absolutely. But it's supposed to be strong. It's an epic destiny. But now that healing is gone, and it was replaced by....nothing. So nothing is what Exalted Angel is now, except some filler abilities on the way to getting a mass cure SLA.
It's extremely disappointing. The mantle can be preserved with reduced functionality. Lower the healing amount. I don't think it's possible to change the pulse frequency, because that seems to be a server side pulse, I tried to see if it was possible to stagger activations to get a steady streaming of healing from multiple auras, but they always activate at the same time (which is another reason why it isn't too strong, multiple auras are very mid). Lower the healing amount. Make it not crit. Give it severely reduced benefit from spellpower. That's the fix.
The EA tree has always been severely underwhelming, and what save it had took the form of the mantle and its healing.
The Strikes were (and are) not great - they are classed as level 3 spells for whatever reason, so you can't hit Liches or enraged Lailat or other enemies with a level based spell ward with it. Single target, pretty long cooldown, mediocre damage. Pure fire damage on flame pillar for people with no immunity strip? Fire is the most heavily resisted/immune element in the game. Nobody used that. A single target heal pillar for classes who are already swimming in heal options? I doubt many people used that. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
A bunch of very tiny turn undead improvements that only really help half of the classes meant to use the tree, and don't help even that half very much because turn undead has been 'meh' from beta in 2005. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
A flaming sphere SLA? If it hadn't been sitting there for more than a year now, I would have thought that the Devs were doing an April fool's prank. Why does this exist at all? I tried using it just to see if there was some hidden function that made it worth including and also worth 2 destiny points to buy. The flaming spheres that casters in Menechtarum use are actually weirdly ok for them; they are immune to damage, mess with our tab targeting, and drive hirelings crazy. But when we use it? Enemies ignore it, it does take splash damage so it dies almost as soon as it is cast, and it has a full minute cooldown. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
Bonus damage on the mantle - 5 second cooldown seems to be the standard for all of these additive damage mantle bonuses, so ok. But aberrant to the other similar mantles, a 15% chance of activation, so realistically the two bonuses were on 10 second timers because that's how probability works. Also one of them is inescapably fire damage, so it frequently did no damage or would activate on iron golems and heal them. It also was (I think) the only damage-add mantle ability that didn't activate on melee, so any melee that went into that mantle was taking a pretty massive DPS hit to do it. But it's ok, because the (healing side of the) mantle is pretty good!
Stand and be judged - a fairly decent ability in theory that doesn't work in practice. The animation on it is glacial, daze breaks on damage, the stun is conjuration based (and with only Cometfall as a DC conjuration spell, no divines spec for it compared to Evocation or Necromancy, so monsters almost always save), and the damage was tied to a successful stun so it didn't work on bosses ever and rarely on anything else. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
Holy Fireball - Good ability. But half of it is fire and Divines have continue to not have immunity strip. I'm not advocating for Divines to get an immunity strip - honestly I think immunity strip is already way too prevelant, but it is a fact that has to be accounted for when evaluating the effectiveness of an ability. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
Chain Cure- Doesn't work. Like, at all. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
Epic Moment - Mostly used for the action boost runspeed. The blade barrier that has now been turned into the new mantle was not used once every 5 minutes because it doesn't really work, and making it permanent with the new mantle doesn't suddenly cause it to work. I took it to test it, and then respecced out of it and never considered taking it again. But it's ok, because the mantle is pretty good!
An overall very underwhelming tree where even the things about it that are good (the healing amp, the resistances, the save bonuses) were completely overshadowed by Unyielding Sentinel which provided almost every aspect of the defense, but also several hundred+ more hitpoints. People who were interested in healing go to tier3 for the MCMW SLA, and then sink the rest of their points elsewhere. The one thing about the tree that gave it appeal was the healing on the mantle. That one thing salvaged all the rest. Was it strong? Yes, absolutely. But it's supposed to be strong. It's an epic destiny. But now that healing is gone, and it was replaced by....nothing. So nothing is what Exalted Angel is now, except some filler abilities on the way to getting a mass cure SLA.
It's extremely disappointing. The mantle can be preserved with reduced functionality. Lower the healing amount. I don't think it's possible to change the pulse frequency, because that seems to be a server side pulse, I tried to see if it was possible to stagger activations to get a steady streaming of healing from multiple auras, but they always activate at the same time (which is another reason why it isn't too strong, multiple auras are very mid). Lower the healing amount. Make it not crit. Give it severely reduced benefit from spellpower. That's the fix.
Matuse
Join Date: February 2006
I know you don't know what the exploit is, and why it's a problem.
Lazuli
Well-known member
Matuse, if they preserve the mantle's healing much less effectively, the mantle will be a trap.
Probably many of those who currently use the mantle routinely will discover a better build simply by changing ED, as happened to the casters who abandoned the shiradi after the nerf that obliterated it for magic users.
I don't advocate the change, because I believe that not everything should be about dps, but I fear that it will be a reality that people will discover that they have wasted their time with that mantle. There is a lot of healing in the EDs, and there is much better than that mantle.
Probably many of those who currently use the mantle routinely will discover a better build simply by changing ED, as happened to the casters who abandoned the shiradi after the nerf that obliterated it for magic users.
I don't advocate the change, because I believe that not everything should be about dps, but I fear that it will be a reality that people will discover that they have wasted their time with that mantle. There is a lot of healing in the EDs, and there is much better than that mantle.
Tonquin
of Lightning Hammer fame!
Great news - we've actually tracked this down and it should be fixed for next Lamannia for all spells! Thank you all so much for the detailed information and reports.
Reifee - Orien
Well-known member
There is tuning content, and then gutting.
I'd love to hear why the dev's tend to gut. Isn't it better to TUNE, Adjusting the damage downward to get it to some metrics that you like.
Going from 1d6 +10 x 2, to 1D6 +7. thats a HUGE change in numbers, if it was that over powered I'd understand. Its not. Its a fairly useful spell at its current level, however its not end all.
You realise we do like seeing some bigger numbers and during an adventure we do actually like the ability to kill a number of mobs in one hit. Its part of the fantasy appeal, thats why there are hordes of things to kill.
increase the timer, leave the damage alone. I mean If I can hit for well over 100k with Ice spells, but my breat maxes out at around 20k whats the big deal?
Hell I see arrows hitting for 600k.
This, and your shooting for 156+ Lives Does it really matter?
I'd love to hear why the dev's tend to gut. Isn't it better to TUNE, Adjusting the damage downward to get it to some metrics that you like.
Going from 1d6 +10 x 2, to 1D6 +7. thats a HUGE change in numbers, if it was that over powered I'd understand. Its not. Its a fairly useful spell at its current level, however its not end all.
You realise we do like seeing some bigger numbers and during an adventure we do actually like the ability to kill a number of mobs in one hit. Its part of the fantasy appeal, thats why there are hordes of things to kill.
increase the timer, leave the damage alone. I mean If I can hit for well over 100k with Ice spells, but my breat maxes out at around 20k whats the big deal?
Hell I see arrows hitting for 600k.
This, and your shooting for 156+ Lives Does it really matter?
Lazuli
Well-known member
Thanks! this is an useful fix.
Reifee - Orien
Well-known member
That makes no sense. There a much higher damage spells out there. Ever play a Sorc?
anyways Moving on.
anyways Moving on.
Lazuli
Well-known member
From what we have ended up discovering with his comments here and there, I would say that he has not gone beyond the beginner stage.
Cyberdine (YezakGai)
Cannith, Silver Legion
Still no reasoning on why EA turned into the electronic arts version of the previous destiny?
Communicate with us. I can handle if you see it completely different than, well, the majority of us in the thread. That means you're trying to create something better even if from my perspective it's a failure.
Silence is... lazy?
Communicate with us. I can handle if you see it completely different than, well, the majority of us in the thread. That means you're trying to create something better even if from my perspective it's a failure.
Silence is... lazy?
Matuse
Join Date: February 2006
The summary of your rebuttal:
"EA is garbage and people should use other destinies"
...is not a solution. If EA is going to have one of its best features removed, and as long as they are overhauling the tree so drastically anyway, then other aspects need to be fixed and/or bumped up to compensate for the loss. What is Exalted Angel? Is it a healing tree? It fails at that. Is it a damage tree? Not really good at that either. Support? No. Crowd control? No.
MisterVan
Active member
2024 just began and this is THE QoL fix of the year. Thank you!
Lazuli
Well-known member
As I told you, I don't defend the change, I think it is a mistake, just as nerf dragon breath is a mistake at a time when spell dps is not at a good time.
But they are not going to change their mind, and it already happened to me with the shiradi, that the nerf opened the doors to another more powerful build. I see that this is going to happen with many EA users, because the mantle really is not as good as people think. To get it, you have to give up a lot of dps, and there are options in the EDs that give you better healing, and even defenses to require less healing.
So I'm not advocating to change it, far from it, but I encourage you to see the glass half full, since the devs are not going to change their minds.
And yes, I agree that the tree should be better for healers and it is very incongruous to eliminate one of its few healing options from it. I have to try the new mantle, but I doubt it's worth trading the sentinel for. Really, devs have gone too far in penalizing everything that is not raw damage.
- Status