Update 66 Preview 1 - Epic Destiny Refresh
- Thread starter Tonquin
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Yeah, that is just not fun to play. The current EA epic moment is one of the few where I go "eh... why bother?" because of that silly bumper car style. The game isn't built to use it effectively, it is clunky to use. What other abilities are there like that in the game? An aura that ticks periodically is so much more user friendly. You could have them take damage on entering, but then give them periodic ticks if they stay in it. The Tower of Despair raid's big shadow creatures have a cold aura that does just that so it is possible. In fact, their aura is the one that needs an internal cooldown because players usually die in there to jittering on the edge of that aura and taking repeated cold ticks.
Overall, I see no reason to go to the ring version of the mantle. Some sort of blade ring fits more in line with the play style of a Divine Crusader charging in to a fight, not an Exalted Angel. I'd rather EA have consecrate or something similar. I saw someone worried about dropping rings of blades with every spell cast and I'd rather have that version than the one where it follows me. That version could be like dropping consecrates everywhere which could actually be kind of cool. Better yet would be to have the mantle trigger (appropriately scaled) Divine Wraths with their spell casts, a nice healing/hurting combo that serves the same purpose as the ring of blades but a better delivery mechanism.
I am also greatly disappointed by the apparent removal of the healing aura portion of the mantle. If you are worried about balance with it, just tone down the numbers instead of removing it completely. Please don't shove the nice AoE healing portion of the mantle into entering the silly ring of blades. I don't need people standing around me and having to jitter in and out of the rings to get healing near me.
I think it's fine to have on Shadowdancer, and if they do add it they should add it as an additional toggle just like they did with Grandmaster of Flowers. And if they do add it, then they should do it in a way that isn't taxed by AP and doesn't take away from other abilities.
droid327
Hardcore casual soloist
No one likes the proposed EA changes. And its not just about hate generation, a multiselector isnt going to solve this. People want the aura, simple as that.
This is quite possibly the least popular major change that's been implemented in...a long long time, not sure when something else has been this unanimously unwanted and improperly justified
This isnt a "tweak it a bit for Preview 2" problem. This isnt a "throw some extra bonuses on the mantle" problem. This is a "completely scrap this idea and take it back to the drawing board" problem.
I know you've done it before after overwhelmingly negative feedback, and if there's ever been a situation where its warranted more than any other, this would be it.
This is quite possibly the least popular major change that's been implemented in...a long long time, not sure when something else has been this unanimously unwanted and improperly justified
This isnt a "tweak it a bit for Preview 2" problem. This isnt a "throw some extra bonuses on the mantle" problem. This is a "completely scrap this idea and take it back to the drawing board" problem.
I know you've done it before after overwhelmingly negative feedback, and if there's ever been a situation where its warranted more than any other, this would be it.
Qeistalan
Well-known member
SSG, reacting to "overwhelmingly negative feedback", to benefit the players?
COMEDY! :ROFLMAO:
I feel like this is extremely underwhelming, especially when looking at some of the new additions that are coming into the game for Fighter with Dragon Lord. Shadowdancer already feels... rough to take by its primary intended audience, agile melee fighters. Shadowdancer's Mantle tends to be more used by casters, though that has fallen a bit out of favor for Shiradi and even Magus.
Unholy Feeding isn't... terrible. But as a property just tacked onto a T5 Mantle ability it feels rough, especially as an On Kill effect. On Kill effects are already extremely hard to obtain regularly for a melee character that isn't extremely tuned to the content they're playing in. Comparing it to something like Cocoon however makes it seem hilariously inadequate as well, considering that Cocoon offers a ton of additional temp hitpoints AND heals the character over time back up to full health, or closer to it. It would help a lot more if Unholy Feeding offered both On Kill and On Hit effects, or if On Kill effects were modified so that they triggered whenever ANYONE in the group or raid gets a kill.
The Epic Strike gaining a "Lightning Bolt" like beam rather than the current attack is an... interesting change? I'd have to play with it a bit more to see how viable it really ends up being. Having it be something more like a cone or PBAoE though might be a much better option.
I do like the new activation speed of Shadow Mastery, though it still feels like an overall underwhelming Epic Moment compared to some others.
The change to Weird isn't a... terrible one either but it may take a bit of getting used to. Especially for Caster Shadowdancers. Melee Shadowdancers will probably enjoy the change, if they can get a reasonable amount of SP to make it work for them.
Griglok
Leader- The Casual Obsession (Khyber)
RE: Dragon Breath
I think the main issue with Dragon Breath changes is that these specific changes are a symptom of the real problem: caster damage is in a really odd spot. There are a few types of casters who are able to make effective use of their spells in R10s. This comes down to the specific spells/abilities being used, and the ability of the class/race to make mobs vulnerable to the spell damage type as well as any particular build's ability to scale the stats for those spells. (spellpower 1300+ (without metas), 70%+ crit chance, 110%+ crit damage multiplier)
Some casters/builds can hit the necessary spell numbers, but have no/few ways to make mobs vulnerable to their damage. Others can hit the spell numbers and stack vuln but don't have (comparatively) great spell/ability rotations. For instance, if you want to play a Cleric nuker, you're going to go Tiefling w/Sun Domain (for fire and light vulnerability) and STILL be disappointed with how it performs when compared to druid/sorc/alch due to the available spell rotations.
The nerf to spell damage in R10 from U59 did bring down certain builds that were over-performing, unfortunately it also destroyed many other builds that could otherwise be effective. Because there are so few build choices/abilities which underpin R10 casters, when you cut the damage from Dragon Breath it's a feel bad moment. However, Dragon Breath changes are not actually the underlying issue here. Can we unwind some of the spell damage nerf in R10s from U59 in conjunction with this change?
I think the main issue with Dragon Breath changes is that these specific changes are a symptom of the real problem: caster damage is in a really odd spot. There are a few types of casters who are able to make effective use of their spells in R10s. This comes down to the specific spells/abilities being used, and the ability of the class/race to make mobs vulnerable to the spell damage type as well as any particular build's ability to scale the stats for those spells. (spellpower 1300+ (without metas), 70%+ crit chance, 110%+ crit damage multiplier)
Some casters/builds can hit the necessary spell numbers, but have no/few ways to make mobs vulnerable to their damage. Others can hit the spell numbers and stack vuln but don't have (comparatively) great spell/ability rotations. For instance, if you want to play a Cleric nuker, you're going to go Tiefling w/Sun Domain (for fire and light vulnerability) and STILL be disappointed with how it performs when compared to druid/sorc/alch due to the available spell rotations.
The nerf to spell damage in R10 from U59 did bring down certain builds that were over-performing, unfortunately it also destroyed many other builds that could otherwise be effective. Because there are so few build choices/abilities which underpin R10 casters, when you cut the damage from Dragon Breath it's a feel bad moment. However, Dragon Breath changes are not actually the underlying issue here. Can we unwind some of the spell damage nerf in R10s from U59 in conjunction with this change?
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Reifee - Orien
Well-known member
The utterly frustrating part about this is, once this nuclear nerf goes thru something else will need to be nerfed to bring it in line.
There is VERY little wrong with the current trees. NORMAL players don't see the benefit’s as much as players that are completionists. So, the nerf will ALSO hit them harder as they have less tools to work with.
Nerfing DPS EVERYTIME we have a level increase is getting old. Sorry I know that will tune every dev out but it’s the truth (look back over the leveling process).
I also feel that the 1d6+3 or 5 that was first suggested was just something OVERLY low so we would all express outrage and then we'd be given the 1d6+7 (10) as a makeup was a planned process. I didn't like it one bit, its taught at almost every negotiating course I've ever seen. Offer something outrages, then come up some so it feels more reasonable. The offer of 1d6+7(10) is putrid as well.
The changes to the passive healing for the Healing aura are also frustrating. This may shock you, but the harder you make the game the less people will play. If you don't believe me, look at your subscription graphs and you nerf graphs. There is a reason they go hand in hand.
Anyways, Frustrating to say the least.
I'm sure this again will cause some players to fall off the grid. Before I get the canned response about they were on the ledge anyways, my rebuttal is they were there because you set the building on fire.
There is VERY little wrong with the current trees. NORMAL players don't see the benefit’s as much as players that are completionists. So, the nerf will ALSO hit them harder as they have less tools to work with.
Nerfing DPS EVERYTIME we have a level increase is getting old. Sorry I know that will tune every dev out but it’s the truth (look back over the leveling process).
I also feel that the 1d6+3 or 5 that was first suggested was just something OVERLY low so we would all express outrage and then we'd be given the 1d6+7 (10) as a makeup was a planned process. I didn't like it one bit, its taught at almost every negotiating course I've ever seen. Offer something outrages, then come up some so it feels more reasonable. The offer of 1d6+7(10) is putrid as well.
The changes to the passive healing for the Healing aura are also frustrating. This may shock you, but the harder you make the game the less people will play. If you don't believe me, look at your subscription graphs and you nerf graphs. There is a reason they go hand in hand.
Anyways, Frustrating to say the least.
I'm sure this again will cause some players to fall off the grid. Before I get the canned response about they were on the ledge anyways, my rebuttal is they were there because you set the building on fire.
Agreed, it takes like 10 Ruins worth of damage, plus or minus, depending a great deal on debuffs applied. Prepping with PL:Wiz with ash/vacuum main/offhand, for example, before greater ruin intensified can make the world of difference.
It's a good thing sorc's are limited to one ED tier 5 at a time ... if they had access to both Weird and Ruin intensified at the same time it might give the impression they are OP and lead to larger draconic nerfs than are warranted.
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Ellisaria
Well-known member
The reason I felt "shoe-horned" into Draconic every nuker caster life was the fact that Dragon Breath had no Max CL, whereas the other ones I tried (Flame Pillar, Sun Pillar, Ice Lance, Gloom Spear) were Max CL 20. Base out of the box, that's as strong as they're going to get, but the character is going to get 12 more character levels and a few +caster levels along the way. That didn't feel great, it didn't feel Epic. I remember when I did my sorcerer life (cold because I've always liked "water themed" casters), I told my partner "everyone does DI, I'm going to do Magus just to try something against the grain"... yeah it was awful. I saw why "everyone does DI". I already felt like I had better single target from Iceburg and Polar Ray, it was the AOE that fell short (cone of cold and freezing sphere just didn't hold up in Legendary), moonlight didn't scale and did terrible damage. Was a truly miserable experience and I'm pretty sure "Epic strike" should be something you *want* to hit, not something you actively avoid because your heroic spells dished out more damage. Swapped to DI partway through Ravenloft and Aladin might as well have swung by on his magic carpet and started singing "whole new world" for the change it made.
Especially after the R7+ Caster damage nerf, I still firmly believe that "DI is too strong/everyone uses it/it's too popular, no one chooses anything else" largely came from the fact that the other options (not actually options for nuking) were single target with MCL 20. Will the dps casters all migrate to a different "default" destiny and that one get brought to the chopping block next? Raise the floor, don't bring down the roof.
I wonder if SSG plans to sell back some of this power in a future expac with a "Legendary Destiny" system that we will buy down the road. How will the Epic/Legendary leveling process be until then for a nuker caster. How will build diversity and usefulness be impacted across all levels of skill and content difficulty be effected until that hypothetical point?
Disclaimer: I didn't use the primal strikes much, a little spring -> summer/reborn in fire on a couple healers (not for damage), very little carrion swarm, Shard storm for temp hp (not damage), and didn't use storm catcher (single target) or thunder snow (targeting issues), so I can't speak to those in regards to max cl/damage output.
Especially after the R7+ Caster damage nerf, I still firmly believe that "DI is too strong/everyone uses it/it's too popular, no one chooses anything else" largely came from the fact that the other options (not actually options for nuking) were single target with MCL 20. Will the dps casters all migrate to a different "default" destiny and that one get brought to the chopping block next? Raise the floor, don't bring down the roof.
I wonder if SSG plans to sell back some of this power in a future expac with a "Legendary Destiny" system that we will buy down the road. How will the Epic/Legendary leveling process be until then for a nuker caster. How will build diversity and usefulness be impacted across all levels of skill and content difficulty be effected until that hypothetical point?
Disclaimer: I didn't use the primal strikes much, a little spring -> summer/reborn in fire on a couple healers (not for damage), very little carrion swarm, Shard storm for temp hp (not damage), and didn't use storm catcher (single target) or thunder snow (targeting issues), so I can't speak to those in regards to max cl/damage output.
seph1roth5
Well-known member
If, right now, magus/exalted were SLas, not epic strikes, I still wouldn't bother with them much. Aoe vs single target is so huge and important.
Svirfneblin
Well-known member
Hi, when will Warlock get an E.D. that synergises with their unique Eldrich Blast play style?
Wrt caster Epic strikes we should establish a reasonable baseline - and the only place to look is to heroic caster spells.
Single target: Thunderstroke is 1d6 +27.
AoE: Acid Well is 1d6 + 18.
I suggest that at the very least an epic strike should have 50% of the dice that their heroic counterparts have. Less than that will certainly not feel epic in any way even with a possibly higher MCL (and all epic strikes need a high MCL, say 45).
Lets go low and say that T1/T2 effects only get 50% of the heroic dice and that T3-T5 effects get 80% of the heroic dice.
Edit: One could argue that epic level strikes should have more than 100% the dice of heroic level spells - but
a) Not all casters (and certainly not all classes) have the better heroic spells, but all classes have access to the epic strikes.
b) If the strikes become too good the heroic level spells will seem lackluster and thus diluted the caster classes.
c) Applaying Metas to the strikes is free.
d) MCL (should be) higher on epic strikes.
Therefore I do believe that 50% / 80% is appropriate.
Thus, T1/T2 single target epic strikes should do 1d6 +12 and T3-T5 should do 1d6 +21.
Similarly T1/T2 AoE epic strikes should do 1d6+7 and T3-T5 should do 1d6 +14.
With such numbers you could even see casters putting points in 2 different epic strikes, one single target and one AoE, to use either depending on the situation.
Single target: Thunderstroke is 1d6 +27.
AoE: Acid Well is 1d6 + 18.
I suggest that at the very least an epic strike should have 50% of the dice that their heroic counterparts have. Less than that will certainly not feel epic in any way even with a possibly higher MCL (and all epic strikes need a high MCL, say 45).
Lets go low and say that T1/T2 effects only get 50% of the heroic dice and that T3-T5 effects get 80% of the heroic dice.
Edit: One could argue that epic level strikes should have more than 100% the dice of heroic level spells - but
a) Not all casters (and certainly not all classes) have the better heroic spells, but all classes have access to the epic strikes.
b) If the strikes become too good the heroic level spells will seem lackluster and thus diluted the caster classes.
c) Applaying Metas to the strikes is free.
d) MCL (should be) higher on epic strikes.
Therefore I do believe that 50% / 80% is appropriate.
Thus, T1/T2 single target epic strikes should do 1d6 +12 and T3-T5 should do 1d6 +21.
Similarly T1/T2 AoE epic strikes should do 1d6+7 and T3-T5 should do 1d6 +14.
With such numbers you could even see casters putting points in 2 different epic strikes, one single target and one AoE, to use either depending on the situation.
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I suggest that at the very least an epic strike should have 101% of the dice that their heroic counterparts have.
Seriously, reread the sentence. It's an EPIC strike.
Following that logic, at least 1d6+20 AoE should be the baseline (or 1d6+15 with no save, or 1d6+15 with a shorter cooldown, or 1d6+25 with some limitation or other twists upon that). And 1d6+30 single target.
Just... balance around that basic premise and you'll get a consistent system with meaningful choices that are fun to make.
Do whatever you need to do; put it on a 30 second cooldown for starters. reduce CL increases without MCL increases in heroics (sorc savant specifically, some of those increases are literally useless in heroics and are only for boosting dragon breath). reduce increases later in the tree (an upgrade that says you epic strike now deals 20% more damage is GREAT, it never needed to be +100% to begin with). do whatever. but start with a solid premise.
Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
I get where they are comming from. The problem is that if epic spells replace heroic spells you invalidate large parts of entire classes, or at the very least make the class features feel really bad to use compared to the epic spells.
IMO no epic strike should be just about DPS and caster EDs should focus a lot more on bringing heroic spells up to par with the content.
Drifting Lotus doesn't make base-attacking obsolete but it sure is better than any heroic attack. That's the spot where you want to be.
So where regular attacks happen 2 times per second you can only epic melee strike once every 9 or 12 seconds.
Likewise, most heroic spells have a cooldown of 3 to 12 seconds, so an epic strike spell should be something more rare, 30 second cooldown at least. *That* wouldn't invalidate large parts of entire classes.
Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
I agree, cooldowns and exclusivety eliviate the problem.
The comparison to attacks is not that clear though as most of what you get as a martial class directly affect drifting lotus too, so nothing is invalidated. They have nothing comprable to spells, the few heroic attacks you can get is not at the same scale.
Well I guess what I am trying to say is that if epic spells deals too much more damage than regular spells the regular spells will feel bad and just like filler even if the epic strike is on cooldown and they are too important for class identity for that to be the case IMO.
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Aye, that is exactly why I opted for 50% / 80% for epic strikes.
Further, not all casters (and certainly not all classes) have the better heroic spells, but all classes have access to the epic strikes.
(going back edit my post to make that more clear).
Eme
Well-known member
that would just make playstyle stuttery, 'wait 20 more seconds until my strike is off timer'. No flow or fun at all. It would reduce Epic to ic (k)'
spellpower, critchance, critdamage, casterlevel increases, immunity stripping or not, other procs like water elemental's slow and attack speed reduction, the ability to make enemies helpless before the epic strike or not, helpless damage multiplies, the list goes on. And that would be besides the other 29 seconds where they would be casting class spells. I think you can still tell the difference between a wizard with epic strike A and a druid with epic strike A
Anyway, the real problem is that the level9 spells already make the level8 and lower spells all but obsolete, this is just a side-effect of that (I like to think it's all because some designer somewhere in the past didn't think long before making meteor swarm. put some numbers on it on a friday afternoon and called it good enough and went for an early weekend. and this is the mess it left)
But taking that as a given for now, the way forward is obvious; strikes that actually feel epic (all of them) but with a long cooldown to counteract that (or at least balanced against that, the more -balanced- variation the better).
And no more silly +100% damage increases at 26 but rather 10, 15 or even 20%.
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