Update 66 Preview 1 - Epic Destiny Refresh

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nobodynobody1426

Well-known member
It's simple, Epic spell abilities should never be weaker then heroic spell abilities, period end of story.
The very fact they used MCL20 on epic abilities along with silly low dice was the core issue.

If this is really is an ED rebalance and not another power reduction prior to a level cap raise, remove the MCL on all epic abilities. No epic ability should have a heroic level cap.
 

Ptalon

Well-known member
You are going to nerf me right out of this game.
The game that I have loved for 18 years now.

Specifically, the healing aura in EA. ^%$#%$#%$#$%#
...and if not me directly, my closest friend who is far less tolerant than I. Which will kill my enjoyment completely.

Then there all of those other nerfs. Many I don't even realize since I don't tend to use those often.

Nerfs are horrible! STOP IT!

Here go again, just like the last level cap increase. Nerf you first, then let you regain some power you had before. And call it advancement.

There are soooo many ways to increase challenge without decreasing player power.

%$#$%#%$%$
Always wanting to be the positive guy and not just the complainer. (%$W#%$#%$#)
Maybe I can offer some suggestions.

The last plan I heard was eventually going to level 40.
Well, if there is some ability that the players currently have that seems (overly) powerful, then, just don't make it any more powerful as we increase the cap!
Yes, I do expect spell power and maybe healing amp to increase. (but maybe healing amp should not increase...not sure.)
But just don't add anything more to what we already have in one area and leave it alone.


Add something else that is fun.

You can also try adding something else that is so much fun that people choose that ability instead!


It is horrible to tell someone that their favorite character (that they have spent literally years!!!!! building)
is not going to be able to do something it did before.
STOP DOING THAT!!!

Remember that Sword of Shadows. And how you decided NOT to do a legendary version.
That was OK! You didn't take anything away from someone.

And make new higher level dungeons more dangerous.
Instant death and not being able to complete are not fun. But we do expect the game to get harder.

Remember, we have more than one difficulty level to run on.
Adjust those if needed. (for new stuff).
Make sure the casual guy can complete quests. (add Casual to Raids please!)
But go ahead and make other difficulties as difficult as you think they should be for the health of the game.

I think this should be extended to Reaper too.
My one complaint about Reaper is how you reduce the players' power in Reaper. Why not just increase monster PRR/MRR or something instead? It makes no sense and is frustrating to have our abilities reduced.
Add a type of reaper with an aura or spell that reduces our powers (temporarily) is ok.

Take us to another plane of existence where healing doesn't work if you want to.
Bombard us with Quells.

There are so many options for making new quests challenging (to existing abilities)

Stop taking things away from us!

When I join PUGs, I usually feel I don't even contribute at all.
Not all of them of course, but often.
There are so many powerful characters out there of every class.
There were times in this game when everyone played a certain build because it was superior to others. But I don't see that right now.
Many casters seem to be more powerful then melee toons. (personally I have failed to make a good melee character since the days of "Coming Soon") But that is just the trend, as plenty of melees dominate the game just fine.

There are plenty of survivability options that many classes have that Clerics do not.

I'd like to see better healing as an option for every class!
I'd like to see better protection and everything else for every class.

But wasn't that why we went the way we did with Epic Destinies? Any class can choose any destiny if that is what they want to do.

It is obvious to me, just standing around a banker that not every character benefits from healing the same. Not even close.

But anyway. You can deal with any problems by just not making it more powerful than it already is. You don't have to nerf (or in this case take it away completely!)

outta time right now. Some of us work, and find it hard enough to keep up with the Jones as it is.
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
But there is something else. As Griglok said, devs treat spellecasters as a homogeneous population, when there are two groups: those that work well (sorc, druid, alch) and those that leave a lot to be desired in terms of damage (everyone else). Your nerfs have always affected the second group more than the first. And if you really want to bring balance with this ED pass, you need to make changes that help the second group. Give us the perception that you bring balance and not destruction.
I agree with most of your post, but I just have to snipe this part. Its not just devs.... Many players seem to treat melees as a homogeneous population as well, when there are two groups: those that work well (razorclaw, shadarkai, adrenaline, etc..) and those that leave a lot to be desired... :whistle:
 

CBDunk

Well-known member
No epic ability should have a heroic level cap.

Another way of putting this... why do 9th level spells do more damage than 1st level spells? People had to work to get those 1st (and 2nd, 3rd, etc) level combat spells and then they just become comparatively useless. Nobody casts them at 20th level. Therefore, we should nerf all 9th level spells down to 1st level equivalent to keep the 1st level spells relevant. Why do higher level weapons do more damage? That just encourages people to stop using their 1st level swords. Reflection of Blackrazor should be adjusted so that it does the same damage as a base Great Sword.

This is the 'logic' that is being presented.
 

Shear-buckler

Master of reactions
IF ONLY
we had good game developers, creative ones too, and maybe there are, i think, this is f****ing D&D where you can use your imagination to create something to play with, if you can think of it, you can use it.
That said there could be so many interesting things to do\use in this game, if only our devs where listening to us.
Instead they take away the fun of every class (that by design we should play all class to "win" the game)
Part of the fault is ours (and i say ours but it's not mine, but the poor kids that complain about the OP class\skill\race that they can't use right now)
So, IF only they could read your thread, or the HUNDREDS of thread we all do all the f. days because unlike them we care about the game.
BUT as I stated in other threads, it's their job that is at stake, it's our money, and many have decided to not pay, so...
I don't think you can fault the devs for not being creative when your definition of fun is literally "bigger numbers on the screen".
 

DBZ

Well-known member
You think we'll wait 10 years for +1 gear garbage and nerfs and more nerfs other games are out there

For dps again just for that to get hammered again doubt it
 

axel15810

DDO YouTuber, Streamer and Podcaster
Shadowdancer
  • Mantle t5 upgrade's shadowy floating vfx and feather fall moves to the T2 Mantle upgrade, Depths of Darkness

Make featherfall optional. Having featherfall on a melee is a negative effect. It hinders movement and gets you killed in fast twitch situations. I'd never use this mantle on any melee because of the forced featherfall. I hate having FF on melees. Make it an option, not a forced part of the mantle. It's more of an issue now that it is moved from tier 5 to tier 2.
 

Falkor

Well-known member
This is the crux of the matter ...

"It is horrible to tell someone that their favorite character (that they have spent literally years!!!!! building) is not going to be able to do something it did before. STOP DOING THAT!!!"

Basically, it's crapping on players and disrespecting their efforts, goals, vision, plans, playstyles, hope, expectations ... and there are no given reasons, just silence or the occasional comment from the devs akin to 'the player base is just full of whiners.' No joke, that has been said.

It's soulcrushing. If it were a personal relationship and somebody treated me like this. It'd be over. No excuses. That's a horrid human being.

And I am of the opinion that the devs are incapable of understanding this basic premise, because they KEEP DOING THE SAME THING.

This is why I will not give them money. This is the singular reason.

Not stats, not classes, not anything other than the changes they implement destroy. They destroy fun. they destroy joy. They destroy grouping. They destroy hope in believing this game will grow, because changes like this ensure a diminishing player base.

The numbers back up these claims. And yet, full SSG speed ahead? I hope not. But they have a proven track record, so I have zero hope and no expectations and no skin in this game.

I'm not goin to quit over this. But I'm not bringing in new players to get abused. Nor am I giving SSG money until their attitude towards the player base changes.
 

Tonquin

of Lightning Hammer fame!
That's why they should make a 1d6+20 AoE on a 30 second cooldown and a 1d6+10 AoE on a 6 second cooldown (comparable to but better than DBF and ice flowers and such) and let the players decide which they like best for their particular build. And after a couple of months tweak the numbers a little if they didn't get it right the first time.


Meaningful choices are wildly different strikes that are more or less equal in power

Right now we have incredibly bad strikes and some strikes that could be OK if they weren't bugged in regards to undocumented MCL, and one OK strike that for no reason becomes very good only at 26, which is no fun given that the premise of the epic destiny overhaul was 'pick your strike (or multiple), pick your mantle, pick your tier5'.
This is, in fact, that "later down the line tweak the numbers" portion of the original Epic Destiny overhaul, so now's the perfect time for us to make changes based on what's too strong and what needs help :) That's why several Epic Strikes are gaining damage or utility (EA going from 1d6+6 to 1d8+8, Shadowdancer's becoming AOE and losing a chunk of its cooldown, Magus' going from 1d6+6 to 1d8+8 and then increasing further versus certain enemies, etc) and why we feel it's appropriate to adjust Dragon Breath's damage down while also decreasing its cooldown so it can be used more often. If you feel like there's still more to do to equalize the strikes in terms of usability and fun-factor, that's great feedback and we would love to hear more about what you feel is still behind the curve!
Reflection of Blackrazor should be adjusted so that it does the same damage as a base Great Sword.
Fun coincidence - pulling the Schism Shard weapons off the curve is something that's finally gotten to the top of my to-do list, and will be in an upcoming preview.
 

l_remmie

Well-known member
It's astonishing how much a little honest communication can prevent countless pages of anger and vitriol.

Small nerfs sure, call it that and we get it.

66% nerfs, removing abilities that fundamentally change the entire destiny and play style you better communicate a bloody good reason.

Just like the tumbling change. You don't bother fixing something many people love you just take it away completely. Nerf it, change some% don't just flip the switch and call it an early night. You are a f'in game designer.
 

Falkor

Well-known member
I'm sorry but the whole 'we are making changes for down the road' does nothing for me. I see it as an excuse, not a reason. The 'down the road' is some imaginary place where we are given no information, and told to trust in a company and devs who have repeatedly demonstrated that they cannot be trusted.

Want proof? This is why top tier builds are no longer posted to the forums. This is why people believe Lam and responding is worthless. This is why people are frustrated at the store and on-going issues that aren't being acknowledged. AND SO MANY MORE DETAILS.

I have to log out. I'm reaching the 'have nothing nice to say, don't say anything' stage involving this update.

It's bad. And it could be awesome. That's all on ya'll and your decision making process.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
I agree with most of your post, but I just have to snipe this part. Its not just devs.... Many players seem to treat melees as a homogeneous population as well, when there are two groups: those that work well (razorclaw, shadarkai, adrenaline, etc..) and those that leave a lot to be desired... :whistle:
I agree, the same thing that there are very developed and underdeveloped toons in both playstyles, and that is very noticeable in the efficiency.

But if you look closely, there is generally more pressure for nerf casters from the melees, than the other way around, which is usually asking for improvements instead of nerfs. There are some well-known anti-magic players in these forums who have created a very harmful trend (which has created many dissidence and fights here) to nerf the other group, instead of asking for their group's shortcomings to be solved. That type of people who act in bad faith is what has really been poisoning these forums for a long time, and has also led to bad perceptions of the real situation of each playstyle.

Right now there is no doubt that melee is in a dominant position. Yes, there are build types within this group that need help, it's true. Spell damage is not in a good position now. Yes, there are classes within this group that are much better than others. All this true. Is it fair to ask for caster nerfs in this situation? No, hell. Does this mean that there are nothing of melee playstyle that don't need to be improved? No, hell, there are things that should be improved.

Even so, as you can see, day in and day out there are also people poisoning the forums against those of the other group. I have never understood the desire to turn a cooperative game into a fight between players.
 

SunTzu

Well-known member
so now's the perfect time for us to make changes based on what's too strong and what needs help :) That's why several Epic Strikes are gaining damage or utility ... Shadowdancer's becoming AOE and losing a chunk of its cooldown,

Only caster's Nightmare Lance became AOE and shortened its cooldown.

IS SHADOWDANCER ED ONLY FOR INSTAKILL CASTER?

WHY DO YOU INSIST IT'S HYBRID TREE?
WHEN SHADOWSTRIKE HAVE INTERNAL COOLDOWN, SO TWF OR SWF DOES NOTHING TO IT.
WHEN ROGUE CAN'T TAKE WORKING WEIRD FROM ITS OWN TREE.
WHEN EVERY TACTICAL CHOICES FROM OLD SHADOWDANCER ED ARE GONE.
WHEN SHADOWDANCER'S T4/T5 FOR NON-CASTER IS JUST JOKE.
 
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Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
This is, in fact, that "later down the line tweak the numbers" portion of the original Epic Destiny overhaul, so now's the perfect time for us to make changes based on what's too strong and what needs help :)
I think the issue is that the harsh dragonbreath nerf is not coinciding with other balance changes. Heroic spells are much stronger and not getting nerfed, and the 33% spell damage nerf in reaper is still in place and doesn't seem to be changing either. Macrotechinic strikes now to more damage than dragon breath and have no save, and have a better aoe style.

If macrotechinic is the balance standard (d6+6 no save), I would say draconic should be d6+10 (with save for half), upgrading to d6+15, and then cap the max caster level to prevent extreme endgame (level cap raising) issues.
 

Lazuli

Well-known member
This is, in fact, that "later down the line tweak the numbers" portion of the original Epic Destiny overhaul, so now's the perfect time for us to make changes based on what's too strong and what needs help :) That's why several Epic Strikes are gaining damage or utility (EA going from 1d6+6 to 1d8+8, Shadowdancer's becoming AOE and losing a chunk of its cooldown, Magus' going from 1d6+6 to 1d8+8 and then increasing further versus certain enemies, etc) and why we feel it's appropriate to adjust Dragon Breath's damage down while also decreasing its cooldown so it can be used more often. If you feel like there's still more to do to equalize the strikes in terms of usability and fun-factor, that's great feedback and we would love to hear more about what you feel is still behind the curve!

Fun coincidence - pulling the Schism Shard weapons off the curve is something that's finally gotten to the top of my to-do list, and will be in an upcoming preview.
Any comments then regarding my proposals to extend the activation of mantles to any spell such as the draconic mantle, given that this gives more freedom of choice to casters without bypass immunity? That would also allow more EDs to be compatible to the warlock's eldrith blast.

To improve the draconic's wings, since they have a huge cooldown for a tier 5 ability and you are nerfing the ED?

To solve that all the abilities that do negative damage of both the Magus and the draconic do not work with an unholy avatar, thereby healing the undead?

To eliminate CL cap from all epic strikes, since having the cap at 20 when they are obtained at level 20 doesn't seem epic at all?
 

somenewnoob

Well-known member
No one likes the proposed EA changes. And its not just about hate generation, a multiselector isnt going to solve this. People want the aura, simple as that.

This is quite possibly the least popular major change that's been implemented in...a long long time, not sure when something else has been this unanimously unwanted and improperly justified

This isnt a "tweak it a bit for Preview 2" problem. This isnt a "throw some extra bonuses on the mantle" problem. This is a "completely scrap this idea and take it back to the drawing board" problem.

I know you've done it before after overwhelmingly negative feedback, and if there's ever been a situation where its warranted more than any other, this would be it.

New page bump for this post. He saw the nail, rolled a 20 and hit it on the head.
 

Sorccadin

Well-known member
This is, in fact, that "later down the line tweak the numbers" portion of the original Epic Destiny overhaul, so now's the perfect time for us to make changes based on what's too strong and what needs help :) That's why several Epic Strikes are gaining damage or utility (EA going from 1d6+6 to 1d8+8, Shadowdancer's becoming AOE and losing a chunk of its cooldown, Magus' going from 1d6+6 to 1d8+8 and then increasing further versus certain enemies, etc) and why we feel it's appropriate to adjust Dragon Breath's damage down while also decreasing its cooldown so it can be used more often. If you feel like there's still more to do to equalize the strikes in terms of usability and fun-factor, that's great feedback and we would love to hear more about what you feel is still behind the curve!

Fun coincidence - pulling the Schism Shard weapons off the curve is something that's finally gotten to the top of my to-do list, and will be in an upcoming preview.
Great job incorporating feedback! Now, the next challenge lies in ensuring that every Epic strike feels truly impactful. In terms of damage output, the new Dragon Breath (1d6+5/1d6+10) seems to set a solid foundation for AOE damage spellcaster strikes. It's commendable that additional points are needed to further scale it up; otherwise, acquiring it at level 20 might deter players from enhancing their strikes until reaching the cap. While the buffs to single-target strikes are appreciated, there's a concern that they might not be enticing enough to choose over AOE options.

In my opinion, a single-target strike should ideally have around twice the scaling of an AOE strike. For instance, if the Dragon Breath deals 1d6+10 damage, an equivalent single-target strike, let's call it EA strike, should potentially reach 1d8+20 after upgrading to T4. This way, players would find it worthwhile to use single-target strikes, especially for swiftly eliminating priority targets. It's assumed, of course, that the caster level of all strikes is uncapped; if not, the damage comparison could be a closer call. Personally, I don't see an issue with uncapped caster levels, as strikes are meant to be a defining aspect of Destinies, and players can only utilize one at a time.

One significant issue arises with melee/ranged strikes, as they consistently fall short in comparison to Adrenaline and Hunt's End. These two strikes are undeniably powerful, making it challenging to justify choosing anything else. While the concept behind most strikes is appealing, their practical use often ends up limited to Adrenaline or Hunt's End. To diversify choices, consider buffing other strikes. For instance, granting them cleave effects (similar to Whirlwind Attack) could make them more appealing, with 2 hits for Single Weapon Fighting/Two-Handed Fighting and 4 hits for Two-Weapon Fighting. Additionally, introducing enhanced critical range/multiplier could vary based on the strike's additional effects. For instance, a strike with excellent crowd control, like Dire Charge, might not need to deal excessive damage, allowing for more strategic usage.

Lastly, Fatesinger strike could significantly benefit from cleaving, especially in the endgame. As it stands, its effectiveness at the cap leaves something to be desired.
 

CBDunk

Well-known member
Fun coincidence - pulling the Schism Shard weapons off the curve is something that's finally gotten to the top of my to-do list, and will be in an upcoming preview.

Nice. I like the consistency of the curve overall, but there should always be exceptions for items that require exceptional effort to obtain.
 
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