Update 66 Preview 1 - Epic Destiny Refresh

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popejubal

Avatar of Jell-O
SSG should be grateful for the passionate objections they’re hearing. Because that means people care about the game.

The alternative to passionate objection isn’t acceptance - it’s giving up and quietly leaving because you don’t care anymore. I did that once. Needed an escape and DDO is still my favorite first person shooter, so I came back after a few years away. I was going to try some melee life for a while (I actually TR’d into a melee the day before this was announced) so it isn’t going to effect me much, but I’m still making my voice heard about the garbage changes that SSG is making because I still care.

Real talk, Jerry - be thankful for the feedback you’re getting.
 

Redoubt

Well-known member
Have you ever considered... that the Devs are right?

All I'm hearing is "Rheeee! Rheeeeeeeee! My class is getting nerfed! Muuuh class is NeRFeD!!"

Face it, the developers have the numbers and are considering every aspect of the game in an unbiased, fair, and balanced way.

I listened to Cord's Fridays at Four and I was shocked by Tonquin's level of consideration for all the variables when balancing.

On the show, if you actually care to listen, he went through the thought process of each balancing change in ED's. Every number was accounted for,
Tonquin even talked about difficulty in aiming and positioning as part of the consideration for assigning damage to certain spells.

I was extremely impressed!

...

So fellas, let's stop whining about changes that you all knew was coming!

Thanks!
I"m not going to argue about offensive power. My concern is the removal of so much healing from EA. Did they say why they are doing that?
 

Redoubt

Well-known member
I posted this over on discord, but I figured I'd post this here too as it sums how I see the EA changes overall.

"I think they want less passive game play like the current EA aura. Realistically, with the changed EA barrier system (and that they're looking into making it pulse heals & damage on those inside it), you just need to occasionally cast a fire/light/heal spell to keep it up... and EA tree gives people those, so you could keep it up by just using those vs it being pure passive."
Does it trigger from warlock blast??? If not, its a problem.
 

DBZ

Well-known member
Why waste the time when you can just consecrate that ed will still work

Isn't consecration an aura that heals too should it not be romoved also
 
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Mary

Well-known member
excellent stuff - will be making a react video to this and will try to test the changes out on lamania

This is one of my feelings however that Weird the spell should be available to any arcane caster that can do illusion magic - it should not be tied to shadowdancer in any way; yes you can give an SLA verson of it in shadowdancer, but any arcane caster should be able to also access it via their spellbook, meaning some casters could cast it x2 in a row, the sla and the memorized version - this would bring this spell in line with all the other spells that wind up as SLAs and also be in line with D&D and what players of other D&D games would expect when coming and playing here in ddo.
 

Archaic

Well-known member
Yeah that would be a solid change if they were worried about everybody having it. (Might need to figure out a FVS way too, not sure how many turn uses they would have with it? So HEALERS would still have access, and I guess pally too)

Give it a duration like cleric aura etc.

Maybe add a certain # of uses per FVS or cleric level
The ability to turn undead is granted in the Destiny tree already...
 

JaynChar2019

Well-known member
With over 59 pages of negative feedback I really hope
Hi all! I hope your 2024 is treating you well!

With Update 66 we're embarking on a pretty large overhaul of the current 13 Epic Destinies in an effort to adjust their structure, balance, and presentation. This takes the form of some universal changes that apply to all trees, and some specific changes that apply to certain abilities within certain trees. Without further ado, let's get right to it!

Changes to All Trees​

All Epic Destiny Trees have received the following:
  • A pass over their individual icons for readability and iconography - this includes several new icons and edits to existing ones to provide a cleaner and more cohesive within-tree look.
  • All Mantle ability icons now have a color-coded border around their Icon for maximum readability on a hotbar or within a tree.
  • All Strike ability icons now have a color-coded border around their Icon for maximum readability on a hotbar or within a tree.
  • All abilities that upgrade a Mantle or a Strike now have an appropriate border that matches the border of what they're upgrading for maximum visual clarity.
  • Trees have been reordered and rearranged to support more clear Prereq lines in cases where ability upgrades are required - for example, an ability that says "Your Destiny Mantle gains this specific bonus" is now in a line with that Mantle and has arrows to properly convey its relationship.
  • A ton of tooltips have been rewritten, reworded, color coded, and simplified or expanded depending on their needs.
You'll notice this section is almost all about how the trees are presented - and it's something that we hope really makes a difference. But now, onwards to the funky stuff!

Draconic Incarnation​

Most of these adjustments are about Dragon Breath, an ability that we think is quite strong but has overshadowed the other caster-based Epic Strikes and (more importantly) outpaced the intended difficulty of our content. To that end, we're lowering its damage, but are also lowering its AP cost and its cooldown. Other Epic Strikes are being adjusted as well, Draconic just happens to be first and we're starting here!
  • Dragon Breath is now a 1-rank, 2AP Ability.
  • Dragon Breath damage adjusted to 1d6+3 damage per caster level.
  • Energy Burst now increases Dragon Breath's damage to 1d6+7 damage per caster level.
  • Gaping Maw now increases Dragon Breath's damage to 1d6+7 damage per caster level.
  • Dragon Breath cooldown adjusted to 12 seconds.
  • Dragon Breath and Attune the Arcane have swapped places in the tree.

Fatesinger​

Fatesinger's largest adjustments are in how it calculates its DCs for its CC abilities. It's also the first tree in alphabetical order to have its cores adjusted, which means this is a great place to talk about our new Core structure for certain destinies.

Quick Interlude for a Chart!​

Going forward, we've standardized the HP and SP so that certain destinies match each other based on their intended playstyle. This mostly resulted in a bump to HP for the Martial Destinies, but we're happy to have a good standard to fall back on when iterating on this system.
Destiny TypeDestiny TreesHP Per CoreSP Per Core
MartialDivine Crusader, Grandmaster of Flowers, Legendary Dreadnought, Fury of the Wild25-
HybridShadowdancer, Fatesinger, Machrotechnic, Shiradi1525
SpellcasterDraconic Incarnation, Magus of the Eclipse, Primal Avatar, Exalted Angel-50
Unyielding SentienelUnyielding Sentienel3520

Back to Fatesinger​

Where were we... right! Fatesinger!
  • Core abilities now grant +15 HP
  • Renamed "The Rhythm to Reign" to "Pianissimo"
  • Renamed "Reign" to "The Rhythm to Reign"
  • DC for Discord abilities (melee/ranged) is now 20 + highest mod + stun DC
  • DC for Greatest Shout + Discord (spell) is now 20 + highest of int/wis/cha + evocation DC

Magus of the Eclipse​

Magus is the first of the trees to get a more significant overhaul to its structure. The big goal here was to provide more traditional spellcasters a way to better utilize the whole tree. We also wanted to significantly boost the damage of the Epic Strikes to make them a more attractive choice for damaging spellcasters.
  • Moon Lance and Gloom Spear now deal 1d8+8 damage per caster level
  • Chill Aura is now multiselected with: "Flash of the Eclipse: While in your Magus of the Eclipse Destiny Mantle, your Cold and Negative spells have a chance to blast your target for an additional 1d6+6 damage per character level of the same type as the spell used, as well as applying one stack of Shattermantle. Each element can only strike once every 5 seconds, tracked separately."
  • Share the Light now requires Chill Aura as a prereq
  • Null Magic Strike is now multiselected with Share the Light and moves down in the tree to Tier 3
  • New Tier 4 where Null Magic Strike was: "Lunar Studies: While in your Magus of the Eclipse Destiny Mantle, you gain Spell Resistance, Magic Resistance Rating, and Magic Resistance Rating Cap equal to 3 times the number of Metamagic feats you've acquired."
  • Grand Summoner moves to multiselect with New Tier 4 Lunar Studies, and is now part of the Destiny Mantle
  • New Tier 1 where Grand Summoner was: "Moontouched: +2/4/6 Magic Resistance Rating. Rank 3: +5 Negative, Cold, Force, and Universal Spell Power"
  • Lunar Imbuement is now: "Casting Moon Lance or Gloom Spear grants you +5 Negative, Cold, Force, and Universal Spell Power for 12 seconds, and these spells apply 5 stacks of Vulnerability to the enemy struck."
  • All Core abilities now grant +1 Spell Penetration each
  • Core 4 now grants +3 Spell Pen (which is still total of 7 across all 4 cores + 3 from core 4, but is now spread out a bit and easier to access)
  • Lunar Power is now: "+10 Negative, Cold, Force, and Universal spell power. Your Moon Lance and Gloom Spear spells now deal 1d12+16 damage to enemies with 0 or less Spell Resistance."
  • AP costs of several abilities have been adjusted to try to get this tree closer to the goal of 60-ish AP for all abilities like other Destiny Trees. It's still below other trees, but now the margin is less severe.

Machrotechnic​

Only one change - and it's cooldown timer related.
  • The cooldowns of the Hammer Time spells and the damaging Epic Strikes have swapped places - leaving the Sonic and Electric Epic Strikes at 10 seconds and the Hammer spells at 15 seconds.

Divine Crusader​

Only one change - adjusting the cores to match the aforementioned chart.
  • Core Abilities now grant +25 HP

Exalted Angel​

Another tree to receive a larger overhaul. Most of these changes are centered around the Mantle and the Epic Moment. A new mechanical sub-theme within this tree is abilities that boost your Armor Class and Physical and Magical Resistance Rating. Furthermore, we boosted the damage of the Epic Strikes significantly.
  • Holy Fireball damage adjusted to 1d6+4 Fire and 1d6+4 Light damage per caster level. Cooldown Adjusted to 10 seconds.
  • Divine Protection is now: +1/2/3 Armor Class and Physical and Magical Resistance Rating. Rank 3: +5 Fire, Light, Positive, Alignment and Universal Spellpower.
  • Metamagic Attunement II in tier 5 no longer grants spell power (was moved to tier 2 Divine Protection)
  • Metamagic Attunement II now has proper feat prereqs
  • Sun Pillar and Flame Pillar now deal 1d8+8 damage per caster level
  • Angelic Form is now: "Casting a Fire, Light, or Positive spell causes a flaming blade barrier ring to erupt around you. Enemies entering or leaving the ring take 1d6 Fire and 1d6 Light damage per caster level, and allies entering or leaving the ring are healed for 1d6 plus 1 per caster level in positive energy (this healing and damage has a short cooldown to prevent weirdness). The flaming ring lasts for 5 seconds per spell cast, but subsequent casts extend the duration by 5 seconds each up to a maximum of 30 seconds."
  • Angelic Body is now: "While within your Exalted Angel Destiny Mantle, you gain +5 Armor Class and Physical and Magical Resistance Rating, and are immune to Natural Poisons and Natural Diseases.
  • Angelic Soul is now: "You also apply Consecrated Cinders to enemies when they touch your flaming Blade Barrier ring, and apply Consecrated Sparks to allies that touch your flaming Blade Barrier Ring. Consecrated Cinders: -5 Armor Class and Physical and Magical Resistance Rating. Consecrated Sparks: +5 Armor Class and Physical and Magical Resistance Rating"
  • Holy Presence and Angelic Soul have swapped places
  • Holy Presence is now: "While in your Exalted Angel Destiny Mantle, you gain 15% damage absorption to all Elemental (Fire, Cold, Electric, Acid, Poison, Sonic) and Alignment (Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic) damage."
  • Blessed Water's Rank 3 now also grants +15 Magical Resistance Rating if you have the Font of Life feat
  • Shadows Upon You now also reduces Armor Class and Physical and Magical Resistance Rating by 1 per stack.
  • Ascendance is now: Epic Moment. For the next 20 seconds, your single-target Cure Wounds spells you cast on any target now instead apply to all allies. These spells cannot crit. For the duration of this ability, Raise Dead and Resurrection also raise your target to full HP like True Resurrection does.

Grandmaster of Flowers​

Almost all of the adjustments here are centered on the Epic Strikes.
  • Core Abilities now grant +25 HP
  • Drifting Lotus Epic strike now deals +10/20/30% damage
  • Orchid Blossom Epic Strike now deals 1d6+10 damage per caster level
  • Fixed ranged power scaling on Orchid Blossom
  • Fixed tainted creature boost on Orchid Blossom

Legendary Dreadnought​

Only one change - adjusting the cores to match the aforementioned chart.
  • Core Abilities now grant +25 HP

Shadowdancer​

Another tree to get a slightly more in-depth overhaul, focused on beefing up the Mantle a bit and boosting the Epic Strike.
  • Core abilities now grant +15 HP and +25 SP.
  • Epic Strike: Becomes a beam like Lightning Bolt instead of being single target. Cooldown adjusted to 8 seconds. (note: the Lightning Bolt targeting is not working in this preview!)
  • Shadow Mastery Epic Moment's activation time has been significantly reduced
  • Weird is now a SLA instead of a Spellbook Spell, with the same cost and cooldown as it had before
  • Consumed by Shadows debuff attack from t5 now also applies Shadow Loss and 3 stacks of Darkness to affected enemies.
  • Mantle t5 upgrade's shadowy floating vfx and feather fall moves to the T2 Mantle upgrade, Depths of Darkness
  • New t5 to replace Greater Shadowform: Unholy Feeding: On kill, you gain 6 temp HP per sneak attack dice. You also gain +10 Force and Universal Spell Power and are immune to Pressure Plates and Bear Traps.

Fury of the Wild​

Most of the adjustments here center on the tree's Epic Strikes. We wanted to boost Quick Cut to make it a more attractive choice versus Adrenaline.
  • Core abilities now grant +25 HP
  • Great Leveler now applies a 2 second no save knockdown against targets who succeed against the 6 second knockdown. Tool tip upgraded to indicate the save is vs the Balance Skill.
  • Adrenaline's cooldown has been adjusted to 9 seconds
  • Quick Cut's animation upgraded to use whirlwind (2 hits in a 360 degree area)
  • Cutter now always applies to all creatures hit without requiring you to be Quick
  • Quick now always applies to you (assuming you hit a creature)
  • Cutter damage reduced from 4d6 to 3d6 and is now slashing damage, not bane.

Primal Avatar​

Note: this entire tree's adjusted state is not in this preview! These changes are entirely about the tree's Epic Strikes.
  • Carrion Swarm DOT damage bug fixed to actually be 1d6+1 per 2 character levels.
  • Carrion Swarm gains a saving throw interval to remove the dot.
  • Spring to Summer AOE damage adjusted to 1d6+6 per Caster Level.
  • Storm Catcher single target damage adjusted to 1d8+8 per Caster Level. DOT damage adjusted to 1d6 every 2 seconds per Caster Level.

Shiradi Champion​

For this tree, we wanted to make Fey Lights stronger and broaden the tree's ranged DPS appeal. This is also the debut of a cool new feature, Exploding Arrows, the details of which are in another thread!
  • Core abilities now grant +15 HP, +25 SP
  • Feywild Attunement's Base Attack Bonus now works regardless of weapon type.
  • Fey Lights now deals 1d6+3 Force damage per caster level, scaling with Force Spell Power.
  • Core 4 is now: "You gain +1 Saves vs Spells, with an additional +1 for every Favored Enemy feat you've acquired. +1 Maximum Manyshot charge."
  • Hunt's End goes from an 8 second to a 9 second cooldown
  • Pin is now: "AOE Ranged Attack: Make a Ranged Attack that shatters on impact, hitting all enemies in a small area around where it lands. If a moving enemy is affected, they are slowed for 12 seconds. 15 second cooldown."
  • Otto's Whistler's Immobilize and Dance effects when upgrading Pin have been reduced to a 6 second duration (though still with no saving throw) as Pin's ability to lock down groups is now significantly stronger.

Unyielding Sentinel​

This tree actually received no changes!

Conclusion​

This is an early preview, which means we're very interested in your thoughts and feedback on these changes. Please let us know what you think!
With over 59 pages of negative feedback I really hope you and your team can start to understand your proposed changes for angelic presence and dragon breath are HIGHLY unpopular with your player base. If you guys could just at least throw us a bone and make angelic presence a healing aura again for the player themself, yeah go ahead and nerf it like your planning on for the dragon breath but at least some sort of healing for yourself at least would be nice. And by making dragon breath, as Strimtom said "most likely not even to be affective anymore" after these 66% nerfs maybe scale it back to where it would actually be worth taking anymore. People are Sooo upset because they have created several whole builds around these destiny trees and by going forward with these massive changes their builds no longer make any sense to even play. In essence people feel like they have waisted a massive amount of time, effort and MONEY on builds that are no longer going to be even playable anymore. I'm not talking about the completionists, hardcore, and reaper maxed folks I'm talking about myself, only been playing three years and all the hundreds of folks I raid with regularly and all the folks I have gotten to join our guild as a friendly non judgmental place to come have fun and not worry about if you can do reaper 10 or not, none of us can. I have been talking with my guildies and friends in game and can tell you without a shadow of a doubt you will be really screwing everyone I have gotten to spoken to. My 74 year old friend who's only joy in life is to play with us and heal and rez folks, she doesn't enjoy killing, she just wants to be able to hang out with folks and feel good when she helps us survive the raid. So if you go forward with these changes kudos to you, you will be letting a poor old woman whos only joy in life is to help others completely down and all of the rest of us as well.
 

Grundable

Active member
no to every thing lested here but the added fort. i take it you never made a tank before
Not sure what youre asking me here based on this entire statement. Yes I have a tank that I have made, thats fun to play and successful to the degree I am comfortable with. I would welcome any constructive feedback you could provide that might make my tank better.
 

DarthBUNBUN

Active member
I'm a bit confused by the addition of a saving throw on a Damage over Time spell. Even with flawless DC, monsters will still save 5% of the time when they roll a natural 20 and reset the stacks to 0 everytime this happens. This is obviously worse if the DC was lower and the monster can make it's save more often.

I believe the idea of a DoT spell should be to encourage using it in longer fights, where it is most effective when the stacks are fully built. With this change, it isn't very effective in longer fights, nor in shorter ones due to its lower damage.

Also, what was the internal damage before? Is this actually a nerf?

I'd like to echo this. With the changes to carrion swarm it needs to have it's duration straight up doubled.

Moving on to dragon breath. The crux of the issue for me is - Is it worth casting? 1d6+3 is not, period. 1d6+7 as a SLA maybe but as a epic strike it's honestly not worth hot-keying and having to keep up with the CD. Other than ruin intensified and dragonbreath DI is pretty lackluster. For DI to be viable it needs an epic strike worth casting. DB no doubt might have been too attractive compared to it's competition but it IS the caster DPS ED, and this effectively kills it. If the dmg change to DB is going to go through I would propose one of two things. One - DB now has a 6 second CD. Two - daunting roar now affects 100% of targets DC will save vs evocation.

Also DI notably lacks an epic spell. Combine daunting roar and improved Dragon breath at tier 3. Replace Improved dragonbreath in core 4 with "Hellball".
DI T4 - Hellball : This grants the epic feat hellball. If you already have the epic feat hellball, your hellball does an addtional 1d6+4/caster level of your dragon energy type.
 

SpardaX

Well-known member
* Provide beneficial temporary protections to people that you heal: Alignment absorption/resistances, temporary hitpoints/spellpoints, increased HAMP -- you get the idea. Dare I say: Add Force absorption for a single target (tank). There's a hint of this in Angelic Soul (T3) with +5 AC, PRR, MRR. Extend that further.

This reminds me of an ability I had in 4e on a cleric once. TL;DR: The ability was once per encounter, (So it might make a really nice epic moment) When a healing spell I cast brought someone up to full health and there was still healing available (So like, if I was on 7/10 HP and the healing spell healed for 5 damage, so I'd be brought back to 10/10 with 2 healing left over), that remaining overheal was given as temporary HP. I don't know how hard this would be to implement, but what about an Exalted Angel Epic Moment that, for 20 seconds, all healing done above full health applied a stacking with all other tracks but not itself stack of temp HP over the limit.

You could hit your epic moment as an EA and just spam the heal or mass heal spell to bring everyone in the party up to whatever a healer spec'ed cleric's Heal spell is worth these days. I don't know what that number is but I imagine it'd be at least able to give most people in the party 2-4k temp HP.
 

Weslok

Well-known member
With over 59 pages of negative feedback I really hope

With over 59 pages of negative feedback I really hope you and your team can start to understand your proposed changes for angelic presence and dragon breath are HIGHLY unpopular with your player base. If you guys could just at least throw us a bone and make angelic presence a healing aura again for the player themself, yeah go ahead and nerf it like your planning on for the dragon breath but at least some sort of healing for yourself at least would be nice. And by making dragon breath, as Strimtom said "most likely not even to be affective anymore" after these 66% nerfs maybe scale it back to where it would actually be worth taking anymore. People are Sooo upset because they have created several whole builds around these destiny trees and by going forward with these massive changes their builds no longer make any sense to even play. In essence people feel like they have waisted a massive amount of time, effort and MONEY on builds that are no longer going to be even playable anymore. I'm not talking about the completionists, hardcore, and reaper maxed folks I'm talking about myself, only been playing three years and all the hundreds of folks I raid with regularly and all the folks I have gotten to join our guild as a friendly non judgmental place to come have fun and not worry about if you can do reaper 10 or not, none of us can. I have been talking with my guildies and friends in game and can tell you without a shadow of a doubt you will be really screwing everyone I have gotten to spoken to. My 74 year old friend who's only joy in life is to play with us and heal and rez folks, she doesn't enjoy killing, she just wants to be able to hang out with folks and feel good when she helps us survive the raid. So if you go forward with these changes kudos to you, you will be letting a poor old woman whos only joy in life is to help others completely down and all of the rest of us as well.
Yeah. I stated earlier we will both likely quit if this EA mantle change goes through...
 

Weslok

Well-known member
Seriously folks, if people have to tie a character in knots, hunt gear for 3 months, do god knows how many past lives, and get some fantastic super powerful build as a result then why are you so hell-bent on taking it away from them? They earned it!!! I don't have ANY meta characters, but I sure don't care that Joe down the street has one... I LIKE it when so and so posts he hit for 50 000! I go WOW and congrats... Just leave it alone really!!!! I have a few decent characters I can raid with and maybe R2 max and I am happy with that... You are really really gonna hurt my toon and my partner's toons with this plan you have and it's just not fair to us casuals... We play daily but we don't TR often and we don't want to TR often... Please just leave us alone, doing what we enjoy.
 

Dergex

Well-known member
At this point.. I kinda wish there was a 'nerf bat' pass to all of the 'meta' ED's including Fury and Shiradi.. in combination with a nerf pass on monsters so things were brought much more in line with each other. Because at this point, it really feels like they're fine with the crazy effects of the meta builds but are too hesitant to introduce anything of similar power to other areas leaving people with little choice but to go with the current meta options.
 

somenewnoob

Well-known member
The only "answer" we got so far is form the Friday's at Four stream, and the answer was basically "we don't like passive healing, so it's gone"

And I don't like that they don't like passive healing. So me and the EA Aura might be hanging out together somewhere else.

And it's the height of stupidity to remove something players love for no reason other than that. And if there was another reason, you've been invited to share it multiple times.
 
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