Update 66 Preview 2: AOE Ranged Attacks

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Arsont

Well-known member
All yall talking about how big of a nerf losing HE is, but I'm over here sat thinking, "Isn't that the point?" I imagine the devs think of Ranged, and don't see a high enough risk-reward ratio to justify letting them keep that much damage.

People keep talking about Adrenaline too, and I'm surprised it didnt take a bigger hit. I think as we gain more levels, we can expect to see Adrenaline get a similar nerf.

My guess is that the devs are trying to tone down the damage we do currently, to pave the way for adding more damage with more levels, without having to just keep inflating mob hp (although that will still happen to a degree).

As someone who loves bow builds in particular, I agree, I don't like the nerf (similarly, I don't like the nerf to Carrion Swarm for my Blightcasters). But it makes sense, and I think it's objectively more healthy for the game to tone down player power than to continue inflating everything. We saw some of that with the stat squish; I think the only reason we haven't seen more of that sooner is because, as has been evident with the u66 threads, people get riled up when you take things away.

It'd be nice if the devs cross pollinated their intentions with things like this instead of leaving it in dev streams, but a small team needs to do what makes sense.

All that being said, I do think it's time to remove the penalty to IPS, and perhaps add some additional Ranged damage in trees/EDs.
 

Jack Jarvis Esquire

Well-known member
The general argument that they're nerfing stuff to prevent power creep as we go to 40 is a bit of a chimera though. For 2 reasons it makes no sense to me:

1. They already cleared the decks to make room for power creep with the Stat Squish at 30. This was the stated point of it.

2. There absolutely SHOULD be much greater power at 40 than at 32 or 34, on all sides - that's surely the whole point. Can you imagine if sitting at 30, L22 quests were just as tough as they were when you were 22? Anchoring power to the current capped quests makes no sense. At 40, toons, gear, and quest difficulties should all be magnitudes higher than they are today, and everything we have now should be pretty much obsolete.

So, as a general rule, power creep is what we should see on the journey to 40 and there is no reason to nerf anything purely on that basis.

Balancing between playstyles and classes is a different argument though.

And that needs looked at on the basis of numbers, not just pictures.

If, for whatever reason, players don't engage with that openly and honestly, then it's hardly surprising that the Devs may overshoot their aim from time to time.

For my money, compensating balance should broadly look like awarding melee a premium in the order of 25%-50% in DPS and burst peak damage output (with variations on these two types dependant upon classes/builds) over non melee due to the increased risk involved. This regardless of whatever the level cap may happen to be.
 

Elminster

Former Pollster, Beloved by the DDO Forums.
The whole level cap thing is grating. I actually don't want to even play endgamr anymore.

What's the point? It's all going to be obsolete anyway?
 

PraetorPlato

Well-known member
Do you have any maths to back this up? My THF certainly doesn't hit anything like that, never mind substantially more.

Max I've EVER seen is 220k. Normally more in the 80-120k range.

Now I reckon I'm about 20-25% off of optimal DPS (as have compromised on MP and STR a bit), and whilst correcting that could take me to 100-150k I guess, that's on THF, so still substantially less than posited for a THF build.

I also don't see me getting anywhere near a max of 400-500k, never mind substantially more, using self-applied debuffs.

What is the contribution from external debuffs to get to these numbers, and what are the principal stacking constituents of them?

I need a bit more light on this to better understand what I'm missing here. Nothing like it is apparent in game for me. 🤔
What are your numbers like? On TWF look something like 250-300 base damage (weapon dice+damage+deception), 100% ds, almost 500 MP in low burst (action boosting but nothing special)=3k-3.6k pre-debuffs, add vuln and dust=5k-6k.

A full well-debuffed crit without time stop in full burst mode would be something like:

Deception+seeker for ~320 base damage*100% DS*500 MP*1.3 (FnF)*7 multi*3.25 (adrenaline)*(-60 PRR)*1.2 vuln=218k

That's being pretty conservative on MP in full burst, iirc you can almost hit 600 without compromising in full burst if everything's aligned right.

Stars aligned, you get 2 more multi for 19-20, let's say 10 more damage for a solid roll, time stop for an extra 2.2 instead of 1.2 vuln=530k.

Then you add offhand.

For reference, I've seen a 240k crit in r3 on a wraps build. That's 440k mainhand in elite, and there could have been better debuffing.

THF should be really big on base damage—think 220 or so char sheet+100 in weapon die or so? Idk, haven't run the numbers recently. Add an extra multi to the numbers above on top of that, and you're scraping 800k or so. Add monk debuffs, etc. to breach a million, optimize for MP over DPS to go even higher.

EDIT: looking back at this, I think my THF char sheet damage suggestion is actually on the low side for a char boosting.

122 str (130 is possible)=56 mod *2.5=140 damage
15 enh bonus
15 trance (should be more like 20 with full swaps)
21 deadly
3 qual deadly
3 artifact deadly
3 profane deadly
3 filigrees (if you’re running shattered device, it’s more like 5)
10 power attack
6 ancient power
3 monk

That’s 220 relatively conservatively before anything from EDs or enhancement trees, reaper cores, or good hope etc.

Otoh, I forgot that you’re probably using a falchion, so it’s more like ~70 damage from weapon dice. Should be in the upper 300s for total damage regardless, then add deception on top of that, and seeker for crits. Big base damage numbers-with just deception and 400 MP, you’re looking at 400*5*2=4k base hits pre-debuffing.
 
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Mickeymouse

Well-known member
you can add razor claw shifter +3 dmg. even if that dmg don´t show up on the UI they are there.. tested it myself a few times at lvl1 and even then its hard to spot if it adds up...
 

PraetorPlato

Well-known member
you can add razor claw shifter +3 dmg. even if that dmg don´t show up on the UI they are there.. tested it myself a few times at lvl1 and even then its hard to spot if it adds up...
oh yeah, that's not anywhere near exhaustive, I'm missing a ton, I just got to 220 and stopped counting. I'm ball parking about 60 higher than that.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
you can add razor claw shifter +3 dmg. even if that dmg don´t show up on the UI they are there.. tested it myself a few times at lvl1 and even then its hard to spot if it adds up...
Those will be in the plus tab next update.
Melee Attack Bonus, Melee Damage Bonus, Ranged Attack Bonus, and Ranged Damage Bonus now are tracked in the Details(+) Tab in your character sheet.
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
Well... after HE nerf Consecration+Crusade upgrade must be next best Epic Strike for ranged toons, lol. At lest, it still works with all this new-upgrade AoE... And 5+ KoTC Pally lvl instead 6+ DWS Ranger... 🤣
 

Jack Jarvis Esquire

Well-known member
What are your numbers like? On TWF look something like 250-300 base damage (weapon dice+damage+deception), 100% ds, almost 500 MP in low burst (action boosting but nothing special)=3k-3.6k pre-debuffs, add vuln and dust=5k-6k.

A full well-debuffed crit without time stop in full burst mode would be something like:

Deception+seeker for ~320 base damage*100% DS*500 MP*1.3 (FnF)*7 multi*3.25 (adrenaline)*(-60 PRR)*1.2 vuln=218k

That's being pretty conservative on MP in full burst, iirc you can almost hit 600 without compromising in full burst if everything's aligned right.

Stars aligned, you get 2 more multi for 19-20, let's say 10 more damage for a solid roll, time stop for an extra 2.2 instead of 1.2 vuln=530k.

Then you add offhand.

For reference, I've seen a 240k crit in r3 on a wraps build. That's 440k mainhand in elite, and there could have been better debuffing.

THF should be really big on base damage—think 220 or so char sheet+100 in weapon die or so? Idk, haven't run the numbers recently. Add an extra multi to the numbers above on top of that, and you're scraping 800k or so. Add monk debuffs, etc. to breach a million, optimize for MP over DPS to go even higher.

EDIT: looking back at this, I think my THF char sheet damage suggestion is actually on the low side for a char boosting.

122 str (130 is possible)=56 mod *2.5=140 damage
15 enh bonus
15 trance (should be more like 20 with full swaps)
21 deadly
3 qual deadly
3 artifact deadly
3 profane deadly
3 filigrees (if you’re running shattered device, it’s more like 5)
10 power attack
6 ancient power
3 monk

That’s 220 relatively conservatively before anything from EDs or enhancement trees, reaper cores, or good hope etc.

Otoh, I forgot that you’re probably using a falchion, so it’s more like ~70 damage from weapon dice. Should be in the upper 300s for total damage regardless, then add deception on top of that, and seeker for crits. Big base damage numbers-with just deception and 400 MP, you’re looking at 400*5*2=4k base hits pre-debuffing.
Thanks for setting this out.
Interesting, and I'll do the sums my end. On first review I don't think, on first impression, my base damage is an issue. More MP, and the debuffs.

Couple of questions for clarification/accuracy:

What's FNF 1.3?
What contribution is -60PRR in terms of a multiplier?
When you say 500 MP, do you mean 400, giving a 5x multiple?
If you mean 500MP and 600 is possible, can you break those down please?
 

PraetorPlato

Well-known member
Thanks for setting this out.
Interesting, and I'll do the sums my end. On first review I don't think, on first impression, my base damage is an issue. More MP, and the debuffs.

Couple of questions for clarification/accuracy:

What's FNF 1.3?
What contribution is -60PRR in terms of a multiplier?
When you say 500 MP, do you mean 400, giving a 5x multiple?
If you mean 500MP and 600 is possible, can you break those down please?
Fast and furious x 1.3
-60 PRR is a 1.6 multi
I do mean 500. Barb is going to be one of the harder ones to hit that on, something like a kensei fighter will be easier, but the breakdown is basically "literally every source possible," something like this for a barb:

Epic Levels60
Legendary Levels12
Tome4
Reaper24
Filigree90
Enhancement (should be 12, but 12 doesn't drop)10
Profane15
Artifact15
Destiny Cores55
FB23
Greater Rage10
VKF capstone20
Scion20
Reaper Rings+Neck12
Reaper Bonuses on Items (going with a mid-value)10
Mythic (same)8
standing388

Then you throw on 20 arcane warrior, 50 prowess, 10 blood rage for 468 pre-pot on a 18/1/1. IDK how to build a THF barb, somebody who does could probably pull better numbers out of this tbh. Kensei or pally is what I was basing the above on, which gets a bunch more MP.

EDIT-oops, missed 10 from THF feats. 478 before pot. I also think barb can get away with 33 FB, which means enough for 5 more out of ravager core, so 483—500 in burst with pot. Again, kensei, pally etc. will get you higher up there.
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
Was amusing to see folks popping in this thread, supposed math gods, discounting the DPS nerf to single target ranged dps. N'ere a mention of the loss of burst dps options with old HE allowing you to hold off between fights to get off cool down for a second shot in rapid succession, or lay low during fights to get off cool down for the double burst. Kinda like malpractice from under qualified, no-skin-in-the-game math know-it-alls. So, in addition to making wrong assumptions in the first place to cite silly discounts to the HE nerf, add to that no accounting of direct attack whiffs (basic error) or the loss of double HE burst option (basic error). Sad.
 

Sholekar

Well-known member
Was amusing to see folks popping in this thread, supposed math gods, discounting the DPS nerf to single target ranged dps. N'ere a mention of the loss of burst dps options with old HE allowing you to hold off between fights to get off cool down for a second shot in rapid succession, or lay low during fights to get off cool down for the double burst. Kinda like malpractice from under qualified, no-skin-in-the-game math know-it-alls. So, in addition to making wrong assumptions in the first place to cite silly discounts to the HE nerf, add to that no accounting of direct attack whiffs (basic error) or the loss of double HE burst option (basic error). Sad.
???
 

Jack Jarvis Esquire

Well-known member
Thanks again for being so helpful in setting this out Praetor. 👍

From my end I'm looking at 380 average base, 100% Double Strike, 1.5 Boulder's Might, 404MP, 8 crit multi, which with 3.25 Adrenaline, I think, gives 149k without debuffs.

With 1.2 Vuln this becomes 179k, and I do have that in play, over time.

Adding what I don't have: -60 PRR and I'm at 286k
Tmestop 2.2 instead of Vuln and I'm at 525k. Yikes! 😲

So the stuff I'm missing is a fair bit of MP (heavy Con investment currently, but can see how I may add some in), but the biggest factors missing I think are -60PRR and Timestop.

Timestop is outside my direct control, but where do/can I source -60PRR from? How close does Dino Tar and Shattered Device IV get me, do they stack? is there better? 60% is huge Vs the extra 20% from sweating MP (I know Gaxe comprises overall DPS but I prefer it for adrenaline hits 😁).

Or, do I really just need to run with better debuffers? 😂👍

On MP it's-self I could see my way to adding another 40-ish with some compromise elsewhere in gear/filis under the prospective changes coming this week, but I'll struggle to pick up 50 or more beyond that from the likes of VKF capstone and reaper/mythic loot bonuses as things stand.

So, how about the source of that PRR debuff then..? 😁
 

PraetorPlato

Well-known member
Thanks again for being so helpful in setting this out Praetor. 👍

From my end I'm looking at 380 average base, 100% Double Strike, 1.5 Boulder's Might, 404MP, 8 crit multi, which with 3.25 Adrenaline, I think, gives 149k without debuffs.

With 1.2 Vuln this becomes 179k, and I do have that in play, over time.

Adding what I don't have: -60 PRR and I'm at 286k
Tmestop 2.2 instead of Vuln and I'm at 525k. Yikes! 😲

So the stuff I'm missing is a fair bit of MP (heavy Con investment currently, but can see how I may add some in), but the biggest factors missing I think are -60PRR and Timestop.

Timestop is outside my direct control, but where do/can I source -60PRR from? How close does Dino Tar and Shattered Device IV get me, do they stack? is there better? 60% is huge Vs the extra 20% from sweating MP (I know Gaxe comprises overall DPS but I prefer it for adrenaline hits 😁).

Or, do I really just need to run with better debuffers? 😂👍

On MP it's-self I could see my way to adding another 40-ish with some compromise elsewhere in gear/filis under the prospective changes coming this week, but I'll struggle to pick up 50 or more beyond that from the likes of VKF capstone and reaper/mythic loot bonuses as things stand.

So, how about the source of that PRR debuff then..? 😁
Nice! Those numbers are pretty solid.

You're going to *love* getting a source of LGS Dust (Dino Melthorn). It's -7 prr, stacks x5. Very good on your main weapon, and then you can swap for ooze (tar) once every 10 seconds).

That's -35 dust, -10 shattered, -10 tar, and then the last 5 would come from someone in shadow dancer or post-patch EA, and probably only on raid boss.

If you run with a really good debuffer, they'll get you another ~-20 prr+monk debuffs for really big numbers.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
imestop is outside my direct control, but where do/can I source -60PRR from? How close does Dino Tar and Shattered Device IV get me, do they stack? is there better? 60% is huge Vs the extra 20% from sweating MP (I know Gaxe comprises overall DPS but I prefer it for adrenaline hits 😁).

Or, do I really just need to run with better debuffers?
LGS(dino) Dust (Melthorn) -35 PRR, Ooze (Tar or Shadowhorn) -10 PRR, Shattered Device -10 PRR; all those stack. And then if you've got a monk in the part Jade for another 10% vuln.

When you see top end parties/raid groups ripping thru stuff, it's because they bring all the debuffs. dust, ash, ooze, vuln, etc. It's a world of difference when a group has them all being applied.
 
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Oliphant

Well-known member
They should have just skipped this whole revamp and gave mobs some non-zero MRR/PRR so the debuff math is not so ridiculous. -65 PRR is much more intense when mobs have zero to start with.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
Whos going to be using EA just curious on that
Debuff warlock with EA for those debuffs plus
"Taint the Aura: Against targets marked by your Consume attack: Your melee, ranged and Eldritch Blast attacks reduce the Spell Resistance, PRR and MRR of the target by -2 for 10 seconds. The effect stacks up to 5 times."
Could be pretty solid to have around. Or a healer that's good at debuffing between heals would work too.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
They should have just skipped this whole revamp and gave mobs some non-zero MRR/PRR so the debuff math is not so ridiculous. -65 PRR is much more intense when mobs have zero to start with.
If the mobs suddenly had 100 MRR/PRR, they'd still take massive extra damage from debuffs but average players would simply do a lot less damage. The big difference I find between average pug groups and organized parties is bringing debuffs, CC, heals, tanks, etc. to work as a team; people get so caught up on soloing setups that many don't realize or appreciate what a properly balanced party brings to the table.
 

DBZ

Well-known member
Warlock does that automatically though why does it need ea and then you also need fire stripping
 
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