Update 66 Preview 2: AOE Ranged Attacks

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rabidfox

The People's Champion
Warlock does that automatically though why does it need ea and then you also need fire stripping
EA will be an extra 5 MRR/PRR debuff from the light/fire barrier (and another 5 MRR/PRR from Shadows Upon You in EA). It's a solid combo to mix with a fire warlock (or a cleric/FvS) for making the whole party/raid do more damage. Group tactics have big payoffs; even for solo, it would likely be quite nice.
 
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DBZ

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Fire bomber works too with voltaic and caustic prr mrr debuffs since they do have stripping
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
100/200 = 0.5x
100/(200-65) = .74x
Ratio = 1.48x or +48% damage

100/100 = 1x
100/(100-65) = 2.86x
Ratio = 2.86x or +186% damage

Just lower the hitpoints to half (or less) and everyone is back to normal (or better) but for the debuffing.
 
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PraetorPlato

Well-known member
100/(100-65) = 2.86x
100/(200-65) = 1.35x
Thankfully, that's not actually how debuff math works (otherwise -100 PRR would be infinite damage, which it isn't, and we'd see 5m+ melee hits on big crits with ~-80 PRR)
It's actually x% more at -x prr, so it's 1.35 vs. 1.65.

EDIT—that's *still* not how debuff math works, it's 1.48 vs. 1.65
 
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Oliphant

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Thankfully, that's not actually how debuff math works (otherwise -100 PRR would be infinite damage, which it isn't)

It's actually x% more at -x prr, so it's 1.35 vs. 1.65.

EDIT—that's *still* not how debuff math works, it's 1.48 vs. 1.65
You're claiming you hit and tested out -100 PRR? Or is there a dev post somewhere saying the stated formula is an oversimplification and they have their own pocket math?

When you do a little bit of negative PRR it will look quite a bit like positive PRR, but the distortion grows as negative PRR gets larger.
 

PraetorPlato

Well-known member
You're claiming you hit and tested out -100 PRR? Or is there a dev post somewhere saying the stated formula is an oversimplification and they have their own pocket math?

When you do a little bit of negative PRR it will look quite a bit like positive PRR, but the distortion grows as negative PRR gets larger.

This is also clear if you test dust+ooze, it's not +81% damage.

Giving all mobs 100 PRR would be ...interesting—the player with 0 PRR reduction would go to half damage, the players with -60 PRR debuff would go to 71% damage from 160% damage (in other words, 60 PRR would translate to a 42% damage increase rather than a 60% damage increase)

I've also seen and tested a big number of PRR reduction (I forget the exact number but 78 sounds familiar?) and it's def not >4x damage from base, although that would be quite funny
 
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Oliphant

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This is also clear if you test dust+ooze, it's not +81% damage.

Giving all mobs 100 PRR would be ...interesting—the player with 0 PRR reduction would go to half damage, the players with -60 PRR debuff would go to 71% damage from 160% damage (in other words, 60 PRR would translate to a 42% damage increase rather than a 60% damage increase)
This causes me to again wonder if -100% threat is actually the multiplicative inverse of positive threat to match this method. If so then -100% threat would mean 50% actual threat reduction.
 

Jack Jarvis Esquire

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Nice! Those numbers are pretty solid.

You're going to *love* getting a source of LGS Dust (Dino Melthorn). It's -7 prr, stacks x5. Very good on your main weapon, and then you can swap for ooze (tar) once every 10 seconds).

That's -35 dust, -10 shattered, -10 tar, and then the last 5 would come from someone in shadow dancer or post-patch EA, and probably only on raid boss.

If you run with a really good debuffer, they'll get you another ~-20 prr+monk debuffs for really big numbers.
Cool - I'll give these a try. Already got Tar, so I'm looking at adding 45% damage from self-debuffs between Melthorn and Shattered.

I think I will indeed love it! 😁👍

Thanks again for laying it all out. I've certainly learned a lot. 👍

Then I just need to persuade my PUG buddies to dust off their Timestops! 😉👍😂
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
They could still add MRR and PRR to mobs, reduce the hit points accordingly with no impact to folks not using debuffs, while still nerfing debuffing. There is no design obstacle for this. If we're nerfing the players because the game is too easy, start right at the top.
 

PraetorPlato

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Compressing the spectrum between more and less optimized players is IMO the exact issue that's currently causing all the caster problems. Casters scale a lot less than melee from the low to the high end, so if you balance casters at the high end correctly, they make low end content look utterly stupid, and if you balance lower-op characters correctly, they make high-end casters useless. It's good to provide accessible ways for players to optimize, especially rewarding good group tactics, which exactly what debuffing does
They could still add MRR and PRR to mobs, reduce the hit points accordingly with no impact to folks not using debuffs, while still nerfing debuffing. There is no design obstacle for this. If we're nerfing the players because the game is too easy, start right at the top.
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
They could still add MRR and PRR to mobs, reduce the hit points accordingly with no impact to folks not using debuffs, while still nerfing debuffing. There is no design obstacle for this. If we're nerfing the players because the game is too easy, start right at the top.
If you think the game is too easy, go run r10 raids. As far as I'm aware, most people don't even run mid-skull reapers quests. The current system rewards players based off how they play. Solo on flavor build, fun times to be had. Optimize a solo build, yay. Run in a party, more poeple to overwhelm mobs. Optimize all 6 or 12 people as collective, really push the limits. If they add MRR/PRR to mobs, then the color of people's attacks floating damage number would change because of damage reduction, and no one enjoys seeing their damage reduced all the time; there's more joy in seeing one's numbers go purple and grow.
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
If you think the game is too easy, go run r10 raids.
The stated reason for the nerfs is the players outpaced the intended difficulty of the game. I agree, they don't need to do any nerfs, but I'm not an MBA working for a video game company worrying about jeweler kit sales.
 
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rabidfox

The People's Champion
The stated reason for the nerfs is the players outpaced the intended difficulty of the game. I agree, they don't need to do any nerfs, but I'm not an MBA working for a video game company worrying about jeweler kit sales.
The nerf'd the abilities that were outperforming everything else. Now people that didn't use hunt/snipe combos will be more on par. Now those that didn't go DB for an epic strike will perform similarly. Up until now, if one didn't go with certain ED combos, one was effectively a flavor build. Now they're all much more the same for output (sure that output is way less, but the gap between them has just been knocked out).
 

Oliphant

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The nerf'd the abilities that were outperforming everything else. Now people that didn't use hunt/snipe combos will be more on par. Now those that didn't go DB for an epic strike will perform similarly. Up until now, if one didn't go with certain ED combos, one was effectively a flavor build. Now they're all much more the same for output (sure that output is way less, but the gap between them has just been knocked out).
I'd be ok with them nerfing the numbers of HE but they are ruining their most lag/ping resistant mechanic. A twelve second boost state is the only thing they've come up with in years that does not fart into oblivion with the slightest ping. Did they take this away from Adrenaline? They did not nerf the over performing playstyle, that would be optimized melee dps and Razorclaw.
 

Lazuli

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The nerf'd the abilities that were outperforming everything else. Now people that didn't use hunt/snipe combos will be more on par. Now those that didn't go DB for an epic strike will perform similarly. Up until now, if one didn't go with certain ED combos, one was effectively a flavor build. Now they're all much more the same for output (sure that output is way less, but the gap between them has just been knocked out).
And the skills that were underperforming will continue underperforming. Removing DB and HE only harms playstyles that are not the ones that currently have the most dps. But it does not bring any balance.

Underperforming options are not used, they are forgotten. Strikes will simply become rarely used options. Great for skills that are supposed to be epic.
 
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Oliphant

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Glad they added threat reduction to Shiradi at least. I suspect my boss dps will not be harmed too badly due to the extra threat reduction as that has been my limitation lately anyway. Loss of highly functioning HE mechanic will likely result more in a dramatically reduced set of options for trash on R10s.
 

Elminster

Former Pollster, Beloved by the DDO Forums.
People will continue to use Adren over Crap Cutter.

This is one aspect the Devs don't seem to get, a lot of the buffs to raise other skills were at such a low point that it didn't do much to get them to parity with the "super" abilities.
 

Elminster

Former Pollster, Beloved by the DDO Forums.
Might as well keep using Adrenaline since they only feather dusted it.
You have no idea how disruptive that 1 extra second is. Just due to how it gels with boulders, it will throw off a lot of people's rotation. Substantially lowering DPS.

Even still, it's still the far and away better choice over crap cutter.
 
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