Sholekar
Well-known member
Can this scale with Spellpower so the fire portion can... not suck?
Update 66 Preview 2: AOE Ranged Attacks
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Ahpuch
Well-known member
In preview one it did work with AOE (pin and scattershot were avaialble). So you could HE and pin for a large AOE dmg. Once that was revealed without Devs coming in and saying, "Yeah, that's intended" it was likely gonna get changed do disallow the combo. Either you couldn't use HE with an AOE attack or HE no longer affected the next shot. They, not suprisingly, chose the latter.
Elves United
Well-known member
So Shatter Defenses. Reduced from 4 shots ( repeater builds take the extra clip feat ) to 1.
So if I shoot at a single target that would be a 75% reduction in damage
Hit 2 targets that would be a 50% reduction in damage.
Hit 3 targets that would be a 25% reduction in damage.
Hit 4 targets that would finally break even.
But having tested this on Lamania the AOE is not that big and hitting 4 targets at the same time would be quite rare.
End Result? These changes go through as they are I gotta remove Shatter Defenses and Thunder-shock from my hot bar as its a severe losses of DPS. Even the epic strikes aren't any good anymore. My hot bar is going to get pretty empty.
Even if the doubleshot penalty was removed that wouldn't have much of an effect as I don't prioritize doubleshot in my repeater build because of the penalty. ( which will still apply to 95% of my attacks )
The best solution if the devs are deadset against making all shots explosive would be that only the first shot explodes while the other 3 are non-explosive. If that is not possible then make it a multi-select option whether the attack is AOE or not. Or maybe just have it so repeaters don't have AOE attacks at all.
PonySoldier
Member
Fire portion of Inferno Shot needs some sort of scaling, may be damage should be instantaneous, currently DOT is useless. You don't throw a match in the crowd and call it inferno.
Final Strike should be called Regular AOE Strike because it practically does nothing special. It's tier 5 ability, DWS gets auto crit AOE, but AA only adds 7% damage, what sence does that make?
(btw it doesn't even add stacks correctly, if target already has stacks, the skill adds just 1 on top)
Well if the goal is to go all in on ranged AoE attacks lets go all in on "the new thing."
Suggestion add a ranged AoE attack at t2 to ninja spy in the ki attack multi selector. Does additional poison damage if target is immune grants temporary vulnerability to magical poisons.
At t5 make a ranged AoE version of shadow double called shadow shot.
Also in falconry at t4 might want to consider making coordinated shot an AoE ranged attack as well.
Suggestion add a ranged AoE attack at t2 to ninja spy in the ki attack multi selector. Does additional poison damage if target is immune grants temporary vulnerability to magical poisons.
At t5 make a ranged AoE version of shadow double called shadow shot.
Also in falconry at t4 might want to consider making coordinated shot an AoE ranged attack as well.
Elves United
Well-known member
I tested the AOE shots in Lammania in some dungeon areas mostly using Pin. When it came to moving targets it was very hard to hit more than 1 target. The area of effect is simply not that large. Non-moving targets I could hit 2 or 3 if they were bunched up but they most often weren't. Which is a shame because players should be excited for this new attack form. But those combining hunt's end with Sniper shot, Shoot later, or arrow of slaying are going to see a big drop in damage. Repeaters will lose so much damage from AOE attacks compared to normal attacks that their users simply won't use AOE attacks. And these AOE attacks simply can't make up for it.
My suggestion is this. Return Hunt's End to how it worked before and simply have a restriction that it doesn't work with AOE shots. Either make AOE only work with the first shot of a repeater or not work with repeaters at all. Otherwise AOE which is supposed to be improving ranged combat will be blamed for nerfing it.
My suggestion is this. Return Hunt's End to how it worked before and simply have a restriction that it doesn't work with AOE shots. Either make AOE only work with the first shot of a repeater or not work with repeaters at all. Otherwise AOE which is supposed to be improving ranged combat will be blamed for nerfing it.
Noite Talo
Member
The more I think about the changes here the less I like then.
Does ranged need some real AoE? Yes, because IPS is too late and a joke. But where I really needs it is from low heroics for leveling (which there is some of that here) and for AoE CC attacks at end game. If the AoE damage isn't doing substantial quantities of a trash mobs hp value, then I'd rather ranged stick in their well developed niche of single target damage.
However a lot of the epic shots are canabilising high single target dmg shots to make them AoE, combined with the Hunt's End nerf leaves a substantial loss of single target potential.
I have also noticed that a lot of the ranged AoE shots that have a cleave melee counterpart are still running half the % dmg which makes no sense at all. If the melee counterpart is AoE then the ranged should scale similarly.
Also, it should do projectile ricochet chain lightning style, not a circle AoE.
Does ranged need some real AoE? Yes, because IPS is too late and a joke. But where I really needs it is from low heroics for leveling (which there is some of that here) and for AoE CC attacks at end game. If the AoE damage isn't doing substantial quantities of a trash mobs hp value, then I'd rather ranged stick in their well developed niche of single target damage.
However a lot of the epic shots are canabilising high single target dmg shots to make them AoE, combined with the Hunt's End nerf leaves a substantial loss of single target potential.
I have also noticed that a lot of the ranged AoE shots that have a cleave melee counterpart are still running half the % dmg which makes no sense at all. If the melee counterpart is AoE then the ranged should scale similarly.
Also, it should do projectile ricochet chain lightning style, not a circle AoE.
This. I couldn't have said it more perfectly. I really hate having my single target damage lowered, simply because I have AoE options now. Hunts end should lock out AoE skills, but still allow us to use things like shoot later. IPS lets you target an archer in the distance, killing him while hitting all the melee chasing you as well. The AoE arrows do not have that option, only hitting people very close and bunched up, making it slightly more convenient for groups, where IPS could still work decently well.
I really would be completely on board with these changes despite the small arrow AoE, if hunts end was not being changed. Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate attention being given to ranged AoE, but this is not a buff to ranged. As it stands, ranged is losing thousands of damage at endgame for a slightly more convenient AoE option over IPS. Its a terrible trade.
Jack Jarvis Esquire
Well-known member
I disagree. Sitting on a perch, kiting out of range or hiding behind a tank is far less risky than being in face slap range of several mobs when cleaving. The comparative damage is IMO an attempt to reflect that risk-reward balance and is entirely appropriate. Indeed one could argue it doesn't go far enough, but I'll leave that line alone for now. ?
Pins upgrade gives "Overwhelming Force: Pin now applies 10 stacks of Track to enemies struck"
That has its situational uses. Besides that modern repeater and inquisitives have 12-15 uses of endless fusilate = DPS. Depending on content those toons can be more or less imbue builds (gives for "free" 3 more from shiradi after update). Even hunts end remains the same because none that i know of tried to max crit the first bolt of a volley.
Throwers, shuricannons, bow users (most of all arcane archers with arrows of slaying) will be nerfed to oblivion. The crit with hunt end now for some reason really looks like 1/3 of what it was not sure how thats even possible when missing "just" something like sniper shot to multiply it
(Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Deals +20%Damage. Performs a ranged attack with a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. )
But yes aeo ranged attacks are nice if want to solo on tr train on r1s to cap. So those have that use. No clue why at the same time devs will nerf before mentioned ranged types to extinction at endgame
Noite Talo
Member
I would argue that while kitting you are only liable to hit 1-3 mobs vs a melee who would be hitting say 6-9 mobs in a clump, which is inherently a lot more so melee damage is much higher which is fine because kitting. Perching is a valid point, but if you are perched damage is mostly irrelevant. Also balancing around that is a bad idea.
If we can assume a tank, can we also assume there is someone with aoe cc, the melee themselves, a caster the ranged or the tank, and if positioned well on a melee shouldn't take too many hits with a good tank.
A ranged is more likely to have aggro of fringe mobs as when not hitting an aoe should be shooting ranged or caster mobs that scattered and so are probably still taking more attacks than the melee. Ofc encounter structure is something you can never guarantee one way or the other but point is the opposite scenario exists and would be my plan playing a ranged.
Ofc my main point was that end game aoe shots that are damage based aren't a great idea anyway, but if we are getting them irrespective, and at expense of single target dmg shots, can they at least not be set on a lower dmg curve vs other existing aoe options.
PonySoldier
Member
Since Slaying Arrow completely lost its use after rework of Hunts End, I'd suggest to compensate it with +0.5 to radius of Inferno Shot and Final Strike in AA capstone.
Sholekar
Well-known member
What if the old hunt's end was put into the T5 as a multi-selector with the spellcaster DCs? The two are (almost never) useful on the same build, but that would allow ranged DPS to maintain their single/priority target niche. Make it not interact with AoE attacks if needed, but I have friends and many of my own build which, with the loss of the Hunt's End boost are heavily impacted. Their entire capacity for single target dps heavily reduced.
Elves United
Well-known member
The problem with that is there is one build, Arcane Archer, that does use spell DCs for paralyzing arrows and the Hunt's End boost with arrow of slaying or sniper shot.
If Hunt's End interaction with AOE is the reason for this change then simply make it so Hunt's End doesn't work with AOE attacks.
Maybe AoE ranged should work more like Strikethrough... you hit your initial target and then, if there are enemies nearby (i.e. in an area similar to melee strikethrough range) you have a % chance to hit a second, and a smaller % chance to hit a third, et cetera. Maybe they introduce a new 'shoot through' statistic or maybe it is a fixed percentage thing. For example, 60% chance of hitting each additional target in the area after the first (i.e. 2 = 60%, 3 = 36%, 4 = 21%, etc).
That should allow the single target damage to remain unchanged... while also letting you whittle down packs fairly consistently w/o always hitting every mob in the area. IPS could be changed to have this same effect on every shot (i.e. no special damage boost / effects).
That should allow the single target damage to remain unchanged... while also letting you whittle down packs fairly consistently w/o always hitting every mob in the area. IPS could be changed to have this same effect on every shot (i.e. no special damage boost / effects).
This, from top to bottom, is pretty not good.
I very much like to play 'peeters on occasion, and this would suck.
However... I never used shatter defenses (maybe I should have), but is the effect being applied 4 times?!?! So -20 ac, -40% fort? Because that is pretty strong if it is...
PonySoldier
Member
A thought regarding IPS, probably not the first time on this forum. I could never understand 20% damage penalty, logically speaking isn't ability to penetrate multiple bodies would require larger force? In fact, IPS should have bonus to damage like 5% for the first target and lose damage progressively for every next one. Something like 105% ->85% -> 65% ->45%....
Ying
5000+ hours played
Ranged will continue to be the red-headed stepchildren of DDO until damage between melee and ranged isn't a huge chasm like it is now. There will be niche situations where ranged are desired in a raid, such as the LOB pillars. Or maybe you like to solo kite as a ranged and take much longer to complete content than if you were a melee. But beyond that? Just bring a melee instead.
Kiting could be solved tomorrow if bosses summoned you to their spot and/or chained you. It's how other live service games have solved kiting for more than two decades, and it works.
LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
But sniper shot is literally +2 mult and sneak attack triggering, and the stats on Hunt's End are I think the same, you just cannot combine them? Is there some bug with the new HE stats then? Maybe it is not properly double shoting?
Elves United
Well-known member
Yes but speaking from my own repeater arty who has a combat mastery item, very high int, and uses the harper int trance .... he still doesn't have enough tactical DC to get that to take effect against most of his attacks. While its probably possible to get DC high enough that it debuffs reliably artificers have a lot of gear needs ( spell power, spell crits, etc ) and most of the tactical gear was designed for fighter types. For me at least it just isn't worth the sacrifices of other needs to max out Sunder tactical DC.
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