Update 69 Preview 3: New Feats

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Mindos

CHAOTIC EVIL
famously a bad-faith arguer here. You dont interact with him to get him to learn anything, you just use him as a foil, a source of bad arguments you can refute, for the benefit of everyone else reading (including, hopefully, the devs
Plot-Twist: But what if he was devs the entire time? :eek:
 

Spook

Ghostly Troll
They've hit their self imposed design ceiling. There's a dome overtop that they will keep bumping into. In the future, it would be easier to remove the words Epic and Legendary. Instead, think of them as just randomly named things, like Feat List A, and Arbitrary Feat Level List B.

There's a lack of imagination here. And the word Epic and the word Legendary bring lofty visions to mind. You gotta tamp those dreams down lest ye wish disappointment.
Sure but legendary aim was always underwhelming when it was revealed, I dont bother taking it on my ranged builds. It could use a slight boost (nothng too dramatic maybe 2% doubleshot or something)
 

SpartanKiller13

Why do I have 411 .ddocp files
The choice isnt between "massively OP power creep feat" or "feat with enough penalties attached to hurt yourself"

Those are both bad designs...one doesnt make the other a good design. The good design is in the middle, its a feat that provides a reasonable benefit to some builds (without being OP BiS for every relevant build) but provides little to no benefit to others. That might mean just tweaking the numbers to keep it in the Goldilocks zone, it might mean changing the mechanics to make it less applicable to some scenarios.

In other words, a good feat should run from "+0 to +10" depending on your build, using arbitrary units of power. "-5 to +5" is a bad range. "+10 to +20" is a bad range.
Like +1 multi and -10% AS? Some builds benefit (maybe not enough?), some don't (maybe too many?) but it's not clear BiS for everyone?

At an eyeball it's more like -5 to +15 on your arbitrary scale, IMO. That seems like a fine design space to me, but YMMV. I don't think it can be narrowed while still giving +1 multi (just moved), because the value of +1 multi is vastly different across different builds.

Changing it to -5%, for instance, would make it into a +0 to +20 IMO - which is bad.

Maybe I'm ignoring no-crit proc builds, for which it's just a negative even at -1% AS. But for those it seems like a fairly clear skip, same as Improved Crit, so that's ok to me.
 

Weaponalpha

Well-known member
People are hilarious. These are new feat CHOICES. You do not have to choose them if they do not fit your build just like every other feat choice. People wanting them to be different because they don't want to choose them is juvenile. They are like all the other feats i.e. good for some, bad for others. Move on.
 

Rull

Well-known member
Eerie Aim
We are adding onto this feat, which now reads "You gain +5% Dodge Bypass, +5% Deflection Bypass, and +10 to Attack.

Lol, weapon focus gives +1, this gives +10, you're a real person of finesse, aren't you?

Although weapon focus mainly gives mp/rp, I know. But still, I find the choice of bonus attack value for either feat hilarious.
 

Spook

Ghostly Troll
People are hilarious. These are new feat CHOICES. You do not have to choose them if they do not fit your build just like every other feat choice. People wanting them to be different because they don't want to choose them is juvenile. They are like all the other feats i.e. good for some, bad for others. Move on.
....oh dear its not that we dont want to choose them - we dont want a game where we have to explain to new players why their dps went down. Most people on these boards can make an informed decision most players dont read the forums though.
 

Xgya

Well-known member
Inspiring Bond
We are looking into whether we can get this to hold the rez if the Hire/Pet is under a resurrection-blocking effect until they're no longer under that effect. No promises yet, but we'll get that in if we can.

If you can't, any idea on adding an active effect that rezzes your pets?
It's not as shiny or useful as one that automatically works :( , but at least it fits the intent behind the feat.
Heck, just give a True Rez clickie on it, so it gives something for people without hirelings.
 

AMess

Winter is Coming
People are hilarious. These are new feat CHOICES. You do not have to choose them if they do not fit your build just like every other feat choice. People wanting them to be different because they don't want to choose them is juvenile. They are like all the other feats i.e. good for some, bad for others. Move on.
Your point is well taken.

I have a couple builds where I get to 30+ and there is no clear winner OR the choices will have no impact to game play at all. For me, I want to feel stronger upon choosing a feat, the way I do for heroics. Plus devs asked for feedback and we gave...though I'm not stuck on it, just happy to be a part of the conversation. :)
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
....oh dear its not that we dont want to choose them - we dont want a game where we have to explain to new players why their dps went down. Most people on these boards can make an informed decision most players dont read the forums though.
Patience is low on the list of things that new players needs to have explained to them. Such a weird complaint.
 

Spook

Ghostly Troll
Yes but it still pales in comparison to taking the wrong feat. There are infinite ways to mess up a character in far worse ways than taking patience.
Opportunity cost is an acceptable trade off to have meaningful choices -
its ok to not get better if you choose badly
its not ok to get worse because you choose badly
 

rabidfox

The People's Champion
Nothing else in game will make their character worse just for taking the feat
Improved fortification. But at least that one is clear cut that they're dying because they're no longer receiving heals. Folks who take patience won't know if they're doing better or worse unless they're the type of player that tests their damage out on certain high HP mobs and/or does a bunch of math.
Yes but it still pales in comparison to taking the wrong feat. There are infinite ways to mess up a character in far worse ways than taking patience.
Taking the wrong feat, like being on SWF fighter build and taking improved crit: throwing, doesn't reduce ones damage; it simply results in a zero DPS gain. Taking patience can result in doing worse damage than before you had the feat if you're build doesn't support it. There's a vast difference there; it's a feat that can result in a net loss to damage; and unless one understands the math/reasons, folks will make poor choices because it's confusing.
 

droid327

Well-known member
Like +1 multi and -10% AS? Some builds benefit (maybe not enough?), some don't (maybe too many?) but it's not clear BiS for everyone?

At an eyeball it's more like -5 to +15 on your arbitrary scale, IMO. That seems like a fine design space to me, but YMMV. I don't think it can be narrowed while still giving +1 multi (just moved), because the value of +1 multi is vastly different across different builds.

Changing it to -5%, for instance, would make it into a +0 to +20 IMO - which is bad.

Maybe I'm ignoring no-crit proc builds, for which it's just a negative even at -1% AS. But for those it seems like a fairly clear skip, same as Improved Crit, so that's ok to me.

Maybe you're right - running the numbers now, it might not actually go into the negatives for any realistic crit profile. Even at a bare minimum like 15% 18-20/x3 (ie Haste and a 20/x2 with IC and +1/+1 enhancement), your factor goes from 1.495 to 1.523. Very negligible, but not a nerf.

But the point wasnt the numbers in this specific case, at any rate, but the design philosophy itself. The goal should always be that "0 to 10" range
 

Dandonk

Beater of Dead Horses
Don't forget elemental, sneak, imbues and fortification of targets plus the chance to not confirm the crit.

As well as procs and slower stacking of any debuffs.
 
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droid327

Well-known member
Arcane Actions
Torc's original vision for this Feat was to have it primarily support hybrid builds, and to that end we've changed this feat to read "Whenever you use an Action Boost, you gain a +50 Competence Bonus to Universal Spell Power and +2 to Imbue Dice for 6 seconds." We've halved the Spell Power, doubled the duration, and changed the Spell Penetration (which wasn't really relevant to the intent) to Imbue Dice.

I still dont think 6 seconds is an appropriate benefit that accomplishes the intent you just communicated. Its an Action Boost, so its necessarily gated by both a long cooldown and limited charges (unlike, e.g., the Tumble based bonuses). And Action Boosts are primarily used for tougher fights, which last longer. 6 seconds is not enough time to get many spells/attacks off, and the benefit is only marginal even for the ones you do.

I think at least 12 seconds provides adequate value for the cost of a Feat, but really the full 20 seconds of the AB duration is probably better. Or if you want to keep it 6 seconds, the benefit should be palpably substantial for those few spells/attacks you do get off...like 200 USP and +6 Imbue Dice.
 
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