Update 69 Preview 3: New Feats

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Col Kurtz

Well-known member
In the lava or spike pits and then they die again right away. This assuming that the reaper rez lockout is managed in the coding.

The way to make this work is to make the feat trigger on a killing blow by healing for 100% and granting invulnerability for 30 seconds, only once per 3 minutes. No Jack in the Box hirelings and unlikely to confuse the AI since they'll just continue to do what they are doing until invulnerability goes down and they likely die again with no save this time.
LMAO...the hires staying Dead is Better right now!

enemy troops usually attack the hires soulstone for quite a few seconds... some tough fights I send the hire(s) in 1st and watch them die; often I'll get 3+ rounds of combat and free strikes on the mobs.

Hire boost is cool, but need a toggle for that auto-Rez
 

Spook

Ghostly Troll
Summary of data for TLDR. For auto attack builds in the most common threat ranges and multipliers it take approximately 41 damage or 12d6 damage from effects to negate the DPS increase of the +1 crit multiplier.
Sweet. I have 55...





...At level 18
 

Dielzen

Well-known member
Reverberating Shout
We're thinking of changing the name of this feat (open to suggestions), but otherwise have no plans to change this feat at this time.

Intimidating Roar/Cry
Battlecry of the Berserk(er) Horde
Bloodlust Ballad
Shriek of the Damned
Tumultous Ferocity
Unrestrained Roar
 

Sylvanush

Well-known member
You know the hunt's end change was to deal with an issue it caused with aoe attacks where aoe attacks would get the boost to every unit hit while adrenaline only boosts the damage to a single hit on a single target as intended right?
You know ranged being balanced entirely around hunt's end in epics while the old version was terrible for repeaters and dual crossbow was a large reason those weapon styles were strictly inferior in epics and now with the current version of hunt's end repeaters and dual crossbow are actually competitive?
You know hunt's end being split off into it's own attack outside the epic strike system has opened up alternatives and currently for most ranged styles single target DPS is higher than before because now you can use The Pluck of a String and Hunt's End as separate abilities
and in addition gaining servicable aoe and thus leveling is much better than before.

The reason for the change to hunt's end was not to nerf ranged, it was because ranged in this game is simply not able to function as intended with such a mechanic because a shot's modifiers snapshot from the moment the projectile leaves the character and can not dynamically update for buff effects being consumed.
Sure but we are not talking here about the reason hunts end got revamp we are talking about 40 melee power from the tumbling feat and why melee don't have the feat. But sure let's use your arguments let's do the melee attacks AoE and make adrenaline like hunts ends and you can get your 40 melee power from tumbling feat if that's the case and I'm not talking about strike through but don't come to post here that no body want or hate melee because is not true and range characters are getting something at least to mitigate the destruction of the hunts end and I'm talking about specifically archers.
 

SpartanKiller13

Why do I have 411 .ddocp files
Summary of data for TLDR. For auto attack builds in the most common threat ranges and multipliers it take approximately 41 damage or 12d6 damage from effects to negate the DPS increase of the +1 crit multiplier. For reference a dino bone weapon provides 138 average ancillary damage per attack.
Sweet! I really appreciate seeing the numbers and tables ya made :)

Once again ignoring active attacks, but that's ok we'll get to that in a minute. You're also assuming a hit on a one, which isn't quite accurate but it's reasonably close. Makes the math a bit nicer though XD

I'm gonna start with the math with my last Barb life since that's what I have numbers for and we're vaguely optimizing, yes?

9.25(2d4+6)+254 with mid-term buffs, with 29 seeker = 399 base, or 408 w/Patience (seeker scales better with Multi). w/331 MP x 2.15 Crit x AS = 4255, or 5364 w/Haste Boost (not used to putting AS here but it'll do for this calc). w/331 MP x 2.45 Crit x AS-10% = 4523, or 5815 w/Haste.
268 or 6.3% gain, or 451/8.4% w/Haste. Proc damage on that build is 116 Frenzy, 304 SA, 53 Dino = 473. Losing 41 or 32 (depending Haste Boost) ends us at +227 damage or +418 during haste (per 1x attack speed, these numbers are inflated by attack speed). Actual percentage 5.344% or 7.798% DPS gain (with or without Haste).

Considering Overwhelming Crit is "mandatory" and only gives 4.87% damage increase (2.15/2.05) this seems fine to me.

And we're ignoring the main reason I think it'll be good: active attacks - making Adrenaline + BM 13.7% larger, and flat Adrenaline 23% larger is excellent.

---------

Common crit profiles (assuming focus on crit profile and miss on a 1):
  • Barb - FB Falchion - 15-20/x4, +3 on 19-20 - 2.45/2.15 = 13.95% increase. 115% or 145% AS (depending on Haste Boost) = 0.913 or 0.931 respectively = 4.04% or 6.09% basic attack damage gain.
  • Barb - Ravager GAxe - 17-20/x3, +2 on 19-20 = 1.95/1.75 = 11.4% increase. 115/145% = 1.74% or 3.74% respectively. Don't play this for DPS lol.
  • Monk - Wraps - 17-20/x3, +3 on 19-20 - 1.85/1.65 = 12.12% increase. 115/145% = 2.37% or 4.39% respectively. Drifting Lotus being 11.67% larger is the real winner here IMO.
  • Monk - Stick - 16-20/x3, +3 on 19-20 - 2.00/1.75 = 14.28% increase. 130/160% = 5.49% or 7.14% respectively. Rogue is similar math, but lots of SA = probably not worth it.
  • Pally - Greatsword - 16-20/x3, +2 on 19-20 = 15.15% increase. 115/145% = 5.13% or 7.21% respectively. Lots of procs and less active attacks (esp w/DC) = likely not that good, but probably not a nerf still.
  • Pally - Longsword SWF - 16-20/x4, +2 on 19-20 = 13.2% increase. 145/175% = 5.35% and 6.69% respectively. Still lots of procs.
  • Pally - Longsword SWF w/Fellblade - 14-20/x4, +2 on 19-20 = 15.9%, x 145/175% = 7.92% and 9.28% respectively. Fun with Drifting Lotus :D would definitely recommend at least for leveling.
I think it'll be good for Vanguard since their shields have a capped hit rate but I don't know the math for any of that and avoid shields lol.

I think the two parts you might be missing when doing the "how much proc damage do I need to overtake base damage" are A) seeker and B) you need to be comparing 7-9% of your proc damage (whatever you're losing via AS) with whatever increase you got. So like GSword Pally if you're hitting for 1200 base x crits and your procs are 600, taking Patience will gain you 62 base DPS and cost you 54 proc DPS. Not worth a feat for that build with those stats, but also not a nerf.

Heavy imbue/sneak attack/proc builds and anyone without the ability to crit (no Fort Bypass, greatclub flavor build, etc) without good active attacks - y'all should avoid this. Builds with low proc damage or good active attacks - you should probably be taking Patience. At least from the numbers I've been running.

Also if you're not using Haste Boost you probably should be XD
 

SpartanKiller13

Why do I have 411 .ddocp files
Sweet. I have 55...

...At level 18
Assuming you're on a mid-grade crit build (GSword Pally not using SoS lol) with 16-20/x3 (no + on 19-20 yet either). So you'd go to a 1.70x crit multi vs 1.45x, a gain of 17.2% in crit profile.

Assuming you're hitting for 50 non-proc base damage/swing, you hit on a 2, have sufficient bypass but no active attacks, and have no attack speed boosts whatsoever:

10 x (50 x 1.45 base + 55) = 1275 damage in 10 swings
9 x (50 x 1.75 base +55) = 1282.5 damage in 9 swings

I mean I might be overestimating you, but hitting for 50 non-proc per swing seems pretty doable by level 18. More damage would favor Patience, more imbue/procs will favor no Patience lol. This example is already >50% proc damage, which is firmly in the range of "you probably shouldn't be using Patience" and it's still not a nerf or game-breaking etc etc.

I'll be happy to redo the math if you provide accurate numbers for your build.
 

Dandonk

Beater of Dead Horses
So much whining... and from melee that is king in Legendary already. Fun but also a bit sad
I don't disagree that melee is in a decent place DPS-wise. But I still don't think it should be possible to take a feat that leaves you worse off (depending on build etc) than if you took, say, Skill Focus: Swim. I just don't think that's good design.
 

mikarddo

Well-known member
I don't disagree that melee is in a decent place DPS-wise. But I still don't think it should be possible to take a feat that leaves you worse off (depending on build etc) than if you took, say, Skill Focus: Swim. I just don't think that's good design.
I do get that point.

However, DDO has a long tradition of letting the players really costumize builds including building something really awful - unlike many other games. Sure, in some ways this feat pffers a new design path but it still keeps with the overall tradition of putting the burden of choice on the player. I like that overall design.

Wrt this particular feat vets will atleast be alert and should a non-vet pick the feat and overall get less dps but more enjoyment from higher crits that might not even be bad. Compared to other choices that might leave a build at only a feaction of the power of a strong build I am fairly sure the effdct isnt major.

Basically, I like that DDO lets you make build choices extremely freely which includes making something really bad.
 

Dandonk

Beater of Dead Horses
Basically, I like that DDO lets you make build choices extremely freely which includes making something really bad.
At least in most cases you can read the explanations and see what it does. This feat will take a spread sheet to figure out the effect. It feels like a gotcha against new players. I really don't care for that.

EDIT: But hey, I'm sure SSG has done the maths, right? And done them right. So in the interest of their player base, they will share the calculations with us so everyone can make informed decisions. Right?
 
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mikarddo

Well-known member
At least in most cases you can read the explanations and see what it does. This feat will take a spread sheet to figure out the effect. It feels like a gotcha against new players. I really don't care for that.

EDIT: But hey, I'm sure SSG has done the maths, right? And done them right. So in the interest of their player base, they will share the calculations with us so everyone can make informed decisions. Right?

For this feat you can also read the explanation. It tells you exactly what it does. How the combined effect is with the rest of your build is up to you. Thats no different from taking +1 abjuration SF - it also says exactly what it does but maybe not that you dont have any spells that can use that dc.
So, I dont really see what the fuss is about - thats how DDO is setup :)
 

in4theride75

Well-known member
Sweet! I really appreciate seeing the numbers and tables ya made :)

Once again ignoring active attacks, but that's ok we'll get to that in a minute. You're also assuming a hit on a one, which isn't quite accurate but it's reasonably close. Makes the math a bit nicer though XD

I'm gonna start with the math with my last Barb life since that's what I have numbers for and we're vaguely optimizing, yes?

9.25(2d4+6)+254 with mid-term buffs, with 29 seeker = 399 base, or 408 w/Patience (seeker scales better with Multi). w/331 MP x 2.15 Crit x AS = 4255, or 5364 w/Haste Boost (not used to putting AS here but it'll do for this calc). w/331 MP x 2.45 Crit x AS-10% = 4523, or 5815 w/Haste.
268 or 6.3% gain, or 451/8.4% w/Haste. Proc damage on that build is 116 Frenzy, 304 SA, 53 Dino = 473. Losing 41 or 32 (depending Haste Boost) ends us at +227 damage or +418 during haste (per 1x attack speed, these numbers are inflated by attack speed). Actual percentage 5.344% or 7.798% DPS gain (with or without Haste).

Considering Overwhelming Crit is "mandatory" and only gives 4.87% damage increase (2.15/2.05) this seems fine to me.

And we're ignoring the main reason I think it'll be good: active attacks - making Adrenaline + BM 13.7% larger, and flat Adrenaline 23% larger is excellent.

---------

Common crit profiles (assuming focus on crit profile and miss on a 1):
  • Barb - FB Falchion - 15-20/x4, +3 on 19-20 - 2.45/2.15 = 13.95% increase. 115% or 145% AS (depending on Haste Boost) = 0.913 or 0.931 respectively = 4.04% or 6.09% basic attack damage gain.
  • Barb - Ravager GAxe - 17-20/x3, +2 on 19-20 = 1.95/1.75 = 11.4% increase. 115/145% = 1.74% or 3.74% respectively. Don't play this for DPS lol.
  • Monk - Wraps - 17-20/x3, +3 on 19-20 - 1.85/1.65 = 12.12% increase. 115/145% = 2.37% or 4.39% respectively. Drifting Lotus being 11.67% larger is the real winner here IMO.
  • Monk - Stick - 16-20/x3, +3 on 19-20 - 2.00/1.75 = 14.28% increase. 130/160% = 5.49% or 7.14% respectively. Rogue is similar math, but lots of SA = probably not worth it.
  • Pally - Greatsword - 16-20/x3, +2 on 19-20 = 15.15% increase. 115/145% = 5.13% or 7.21% respectively. Lots of procs and less active attacks (esp w/DC) = likely not that good, but probably not a nerf still.
  • Pally - Longsword SWF - 16-20/x4, +2 on 19-20 = 13.2% increase. 145/175% = 5.35% and 6.69% respectively. Still lots of procs.
  • Pally - Longsword SWF w/Fellblade - 14-20/x4, +2 on 19-20 = 15.9%, x 145/175% = 7.92% and 9.28% respectively. Fun with Drifting Lotus :D would definitely recommend at least for leveling.
I think it'll be good for Vanguard since their shields have a capped hit rate but I don't know the math for any of that and avoid shields lol.

I think the two parts you might be missing when doing the "how much proc damage do I need to overtake base damage" are A) seeker and B) you need to be comparing 7-9% of your proc damage (whatever you're losing via AS) with whatever increase you got. So like GSword Pally if you're hitting for 1200 base x crits and your procs are 600, taking Patience will gain you 62 base DPS and cost you 54 proc DPS. Not worth a feat for that build with those stats, but also not a nerf.

Heavy imbue/sneak attack/proc builds and anyone without the ability to crit (no Fort Bypass, greatclub flavor build, etc) without good active attacks - y'all should avoid this. Builds with low proc damage or good active attacks - you should probably be taking Patience. At least from the numbers I've been running.

Also if you're not using Haste Boost you probably should be XD
You are correct, I made an error in my tables on the ancillary damage needed. They are off by 1 decimal place or 1/10 the amount needed. I need to eat some humble pie.
My tables includes all attack speeds and all crit profiles possible in the game and decrease in attack speed is accounted for.
They evaluate without melee power because it's a linear scalar and not required for base damage calculations.
They also assume no damage resistance, no fort, and no seeker.
They also do not include class specific 19-20 crits or ED t5 19-20 crits since those decrease the % change and the goal was to make the most conservative calculations for patience to look the best it could.

As far as your math it's not quite right. You are calculating 2.15 and 2.45 which is a base calculation when you plan to exclude seeker. This is the reason I explicitly don't calculate seeker for tables because it makes each multiplying coefficient unique.

9.25[2d4+6]+254 is 355.75 average for regular attacks.
29 seeker is 384.75 before crits meaning:
1539 on 15-18
2693 on 19-20
Average damage per strike 808.36
multiplied by your attack speed of 45% for 1172.126 Base DPS.
after melee power 5051.86

With patience this become 355.75 on hits
1923.75 on 15-18
3078 on 19-20
Average strike of 923.79.
Attack speed of 35% for 1247.11 Base DPS.
after melee power 5374.57

This specific build has a 14% increase in primary damage for each attack and a 6.4% increase in primary DPS during haste boost.
Assuming your frenzy and sneak attack are being shown after melee power is applied, this means their base damage plus dino is 150
After applying these to average strike we get.
958.36 base strike damage
1102.11 base standing DPS
1389.62 base DPS during haste boost

1073.79 w/patience strike damage
1127.48 w/patience standing DPS
1449.62 w/patience DPS during haste boost

This specific build's auto attack damage would increase by 4.3% during haste boost and 2.3% without haste boost.
 
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SpartanKiller13

Why do I have 411 .ddocp files
You are correct, I made an error in my tables on the ancillary damage needed. They are off by 1 decimal place or 1/10 the amount needed. I need to eat some humble pie.
My tables includes all attack speeds and all crit profiles possible in the game and decrease in attack speed is accounted for.
They evaluate without melee power because it's a linear scalar and not required for base damage calculations.
They also assume no damage resistance, no fort, and no seeker.
They also do not include class specific 19-20 crits or ED t5 19-20 crits since those decrease the % change and the goal was to make the most conservative calculations for patience to look the best it could.

As far as your math it's not quite right. You are calculating 2.15 and 2.45 which is a base calculation when you plan to exclude seeker. This is the reason I explicitly don't calculate seeker for tables because it makes each multiplying coefficient unique.

9.25[2d4+6]+254 is 355.75 average for regular attacks.
29 seeker is 384.75 before crits meaning:
1539 on 15-18
2693 on 19-20
Average damage per strike 808.36
multiplied by your attack speed of 45% for 1172.126 Base DPS.
after melee power 5051.86

With patience this become 355.75 on hits
1923.75 on 15-18
3078 on 19-20
Average strike of 923.79.
Attack speed of 35% for 1247.11 Base DPS.
after melee power 5374.57

This specific build has a 14% increase in primary damage for each attack and a 6.4% increase in primary DPS during haste boost.
Assuming your 893 from frenzy, sneak attack, and dino is being shown after melee power is applied, this means their base damage is 207.19
After applying these to average strike we get.
1015.55 base strike damage
1078.25 base standing DPS
1472.55 base DPS during haste boost

1130.98 w/patience strike damage
1187.53 w/patience standing DPS
1526.82 w/patience DPS during haste boost

This specific build's auto attack damage would increase by 3.7% during haste boost and 1.7% without haste boost.
There's also an error on X4 w/OC, and I've made plenty of my own lol. It's still really nice tables lol, but personally I'd rather see examples on builds vs calculating what a 20/x5 build will do with Patience. YMMV though XD

Melee power is required to calculate, because most procs scale differently or not at all with it. Like Dino bone 15d6 procs are significantly less percentage of your damage than you'd expect if you ignore MP, and SA scales at 150%, and imbues are up to 200%. Saying a 15d6 weapon proc is equivalent to 52.5 base damage is disingenuous at best. 52.5 base damage with 200 MP and a 2.15 crit profile = 338.6 proc damage.

You can ignore Doublestrike because it applies equally, but not MP.

I'm down with that math, let's go with it.

I have no clue where you got 893 proc damage, I listed 473. Frenzy is 27 > 116.4 w/MP, SA is 51 > 304.2 w/MP, and 15d6 Acid = 52.5, or 52.5 w/MP. Is part of why you need to calculate w/MP, because just assuming that's all 100% MP scaling leaves you fairly off.

Take the 808 avg/strike, multiply it by MP = 3484, then add the 473 proc = 3957 damage + procs, and multiply all that by 1.45 AS = 5738.
Take the 924 avg/strike, multiply it by MP = 3981, then add the 473 proc = 4455 damage + procs, then multiply it all by 1.35 AS = 6014.

4.81% increase during Haste Boost, or 2.78% without Haste Boost. Considering OC is adding 4.37% constantly, but Patience buffs active attacks, this seems more than reasonable to me. If they make the AS penalty smaller, this goes from "pretty good or situationally good" to "must-take" which I'm firmly against.
 

in4theride75

Well-known member
There's also an error on X4 w/OC, and I've made plenty of my own lol. It's still really nice tables lol, but personally I'd rather see examples on builds vs calculating what a 20/x5 build will do with Patience. YMMV though XD

Melee power is required to calculate, because most procs scale differently or not at all with it. Like Dino bone 15d6 procs are significantly less percentage of your damage than you'd expect if you ignore MP, and SA scales at 150%, and imbues are up to 200%. Saying a 15d6 weapon proc is equivalent to 52.5 base damage is disingenuous at best. 52.5 base damage with 200 MP and a 2.15 crit profile = 338.6 proc damage.

You can ignore Doublestrike because it applies equally, but not MP.

I'm down with that math, let's go with it.

I have no clue where you got 893 proc damage, I listed 473. Frenzy is 27 > 116.4 w/MP, SA is 51 > 304.2 w/MP, and 15d6 Acid = 52.5, or 52.5 w/MP. Is part of why you need to calculate w/MP, because just assuming that's all 100% MP scaling leaves you fairly off.

Take the 808 avg/strike, multiply it by MP = 3484, then add the 473 proc = 3957 damage + procs, and multiply all that by 1.45 AS = 5738.
Take the 924 avg/strike, multiply it by MP = 3981, then add the 473 proc = 4455 damage + procs, then multiply it all by 1.35 AS = 6014.

4.81% increase during Haste Boost, or 2.78% without Haste Boost. Considering OC is adding 4.37% constantly, but Patience buffs active attacks, this seems more than reasonable to me. If they make the AS penalty smaller, this goes from "pretty good or situationally good" to "must-take" which I'm firmly against.
It was a mistake. Misread dino as dino = 473. It has already been corrected in OP. Was unaware SA was 150% scaling.
 

Eme

Well-known member
Patience
We do not intend to change Patience at this time. There's been a lot of debate as to its exact power and utility which we've read over in detail, but it has a place in many builds, and is not a mandatory take.
You say it's not mandatory, but you don't give us an in game way to check how it exactly performs for different builds. We need a DPS measurement on guildship turrets & training dummies to be able to make that decision properly, because judging it by how it 'feels' is an attempt to obfuscate the realities of this feat's negatives.
 

Shear-buckler

Well-known member
You say it's not mandatory, but you don't give us an in game way to check how it exactly performs for different builds. We need a DPS measurement on guildship turrets & training dummies to be able to make that decision properly, because judging it by how it 'feels' is an attempt to obfuscate the realities of this feat's negatives.
That is equally true for all choices regarding DPS.
 

Dandonk

Beater of Dead Horses
Power Attack can result in dps lost if the -5 to hit makes you gaze and miss more that you would without. It's been in the game for years. I don't see no one cry ever about it
One, it has a toggle. Two, for many years, -5 to hit has been relatively minor. Three, people tend to use Precision if they can (ie. not raging).
 
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