Svirfneblin
Well-known member
3 second durations make Panda So So SAD.
Update 69 Preview 3: New Feats
- Thread starter SteelStar
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Rosze
Well-known member
I had so many high hopes for titans blood. But it not stacking and really just being worth same as one augment just makes me probably never take it. I was hoping a way to help some squishy casters out a bit.
Maybe allowing it also raise your base hit die. Would make little difference to most, but boots in areas that need it.
Maybe allowing it also raise your base hit die. Would make little difference to most, but boots in areas that need it.
Rosze
Well-known member
Yes pretty please. Preferably let’s one also use the spells so maybe removes immunity for 5s
in4theride75
Well-known member
First, it's 15-20x5 vs 15-20x6. Second you are underestimating the attack speed impact. As far as pure primary damage is concerned the math breaks down like this.
Attack speed | dmg increase with feat |
1 | 1.02558139534884 |
1.05 | 1.03100775193798 |
1.1 | 1.03594080338266 |
1.15 | 1.04044489383215 |
1.2 | 1.04457364341085 |
1.25 | 1.04837209302326 |
1.3 | 1.05187835420394 |
1.35 | 1.05512489233419 |
1.4 | 1.05813953488372 |
1.45 | 1.06094627105052 |
1.5 | 1.06356589147287 |
What this means is that even at the highest attack speed in the game if you get more than 6.3% of your total DPS from anything other than primary physical damage you take a DPS nerf.
About Patience
With no added damage, increasing a typical crit profile of 2.1 (like 15-20/x4, 19-20/x6) to 2.4 (like 15-20/x5, 19-20/x7) is a **14.3%** dps increase if you ignore fortification (and if you ignore seeker and overkill).
Decreasing attack speed from 1.15 to 1.05 is a **9.5%** dps loss.
Combined, Patience would be a 4.4% dps gain if you don't have imbues or sneak dice. 4.4% is obviously well worth a feat (comparable with Overwhelming Critical, in terms of power. or 15 melee power).
I'd say almost everyone without sneak/imbues will certainly take this by default.
And then there are builds that can make better use of it. Like those with higher attack speed (going from 1.5->1.4 is a smaller hit, relatively), many crits (adrenaline or active autocrits) or builds with attack cooldowns (adrenaline, etc.) since they don't get 10% increased (so relatively more active attacks). And I'm not even talking about builds where attack speed is just a minor factor in dps, like crossbows (and throwers?) with reloading animations and/or hard speed caps.
We've seen that "+20% more damage -20% slower speed" could easily be abused (and "10 melee power, so +3% more damage, -10% slower speed" could not). This feels like more or less the same thing, only with +14% -10% as numbers this time, so I think it'll end up the same way (nerfed). But with imbues and sneak not being factored it's some tricky math, certainly not an auto-include for everyone.
With no added damage, increasing a typical crit profile of 2.1 (like 15-20/x4, 19-20/x6) to 2.4 (like 15-20/x5, 19-20/x7) is a **14.3%** dps increase if you ignore fortification (and if you ignore seeker and overkill).
Decreasing attack speed from 1.15 to 1.05 is a **9.5%** dps loss.
Combined, Patience would be a 4.4% dps gain if you don't have imbues or sneak dice. 4.4% is obviously well worth a feat (comparable with Overwhelming Critical, in terms of power. or 15 melee power).
I'd say almost everyone without sneak/imbues will certainly take this by default.
And then there are builds that can make better use of it. Like those with higher attack speed (going from 1.5->1.4 is a smaller hit, relatively), many crits (adrenaline or active autocrits) or builds with attack cooldowns (adrenaline, etc.) since they don't get 10% increased (so relatively more active attacks). And I'm not even talking about builds where attack speed is just a minor factor in dps, like crossbows (and throwers?) with reloading animations and/or hard speed caps.
We've seen that "+20% more damage -20% slower speed" could easily be abused (and "10 melee power, so +3% more damage, -10% slower speed" could not). This feels like more or less the same thing, only with +14% -10% as numbers this time, so I think it'll end up the same way (nerfed). But with imbues and sneak not being factored it's some tricky math, certainly not an auto-include for everyone.
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Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
Some builds are 14-20x4. My build is 14-20x4.
So in conclusion, for many builds its a straight up DPS increase even for auto attacks but when considering burst damage with active attacks its a significant increase. I am not sure what you think we disagree on?
Spook
Ghostly Troll
Except most active attacks also have animations that are affected by attack speed
in4theride75
Well-known member
Who builds a toon that does only physical damage? No elemental, no alignment, no sneak attack, nothing? Do you really have a build that does that? I've never seen a single build in the game that doesn't have some kind of auxiliary on-hit dmg.
Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
The cooldown is still the limiting factor though.
Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
Maybe we will see some new builds then
All in all, a great feat with lots of potential. Clearly not designed as a general DPS feat and that is a good thing.
Spook
Ghostly Troll
I mean this is fine as a goal but they would need to tweak the numbers so that it would always result in a buff
Spook
Ghostly Troll
The problem is DDO doesnt have the tools to assess if this is a buff or a nerf to your dps so its going to be a noob trap.
in4theride75
Well-known member
Maybe we will see some new builds then
All in all, a great feat with lots of potential. Clearly not designed as a general DPS feat and that is a good thing.
Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
Yeah ranged is a whole other thing...
Still I think you underestimating the benefit for builds with 2-5 multi-hit aoe attacks. My current build with wwa (x2 attacks), quick cutter (x2 attacks) and rapid attack (x3 attacks) and 14-20x4 crit profile is going to benefit greatly in clear speed from this feat without any adjustments.
in4theride75
Well-known member
I'm not underestimating them, they are also affected by attack speed so all your animations will become slower and you will get fewer auto-attacks between animations plus lower boss DPS. You will see higher numbers on your attacks and do less DPS. The only Way it will affect positively is if the damage pushes you over the 1 shot threshold.
Shear-buckler
Master of reactions
Oh well. Devs, please buff the feat it is trash tier ?
There are **two** ways that a decrease in attack speed influences active attacks. Not only is their animation speed relevant, but also their cooldown because it influence the active attack/noactive attack ratio.
Imagine an active ability that takes 1.5 second, with a 10 second cooldown. and regular attacks taking 1 second.
So in 100 seconds, you get 10 active attack (15s). And 85 regular attacks. Now say the active attack has +100% dmg, for simplicity. So that is '105' damage in 100 seconds.
Now there are three "10% slower" scenarios imaginable:
1. active attacks don't get slower but regular attacks do (this is NOT the case for many active attacks). Were that the case, you get 10 active attacks (15s) and 77.3 (85s) regular attacks . That results in 97.3 'damage' in 100 seconds.
2. active attacks do also get slower (as far as I know how many active attacks work). You get 10 active attacks (16.5s) and 75.9 (83.5s) regular attacks . That results in 95.9 'damage' in 100 seconds.
3. active attacks do also get slower *and their cooldown is increased by 10% to 11 seconds* (this will NOT be the case). Would this be the case, you'd get 9.1 active attacks (15s) and 77.3 (85s) regular attacks. That results in 95.5 'damage' in 100 seconds. now **this would be the only true 10% dps loss**.
Maybe people are pointing out the difference between 1 and 3. And you point out the slower animation speed, so the difference between 1 and 2, which although true is not complete. there is still a difference between 2 and 3, so an attack speed reduction and equal damage increase does indeed favor active attacks (that are worth it, dps-wise) slightly.
(for those good at math who have spotted the difference between 10% slower and 10% longer animation, read all this with 11.11% slower in mind but it's symmetrical in all scenarios, the point is that because of cooldowns a slower attack speed and more damage is actually slightly favorable)
in4theride75
Well-known member
Your math is correct but conclusion is not. It is ~4% increase in DPS from purely physical sources. Anyone with ancillary effects like lightning strike, 3rd degree burns, sneak attack, fire imbue dice, etc. Would have a DPS decrease if that part of their damage was more than 4% of their total damage. Meaning that for almost all builds in the game it is a automatic don't take it by default.
VinoeWhines
Well-known member
Legendary Strike: Your next Melee Attack delivers 400% Strikethrough while Two Weapon Fighting. 12 second cooldown. All Melee Special Attacks get a -2 second reduction in cooldown for the next 20 seconds.
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