Update 72: The Unbalanced Monk

[TeachrSyncletica]

As the creator of the old Monk guide, it's clear that I loved Monks so much that I wanted to help those to play it better.
While cumbersome at first, Finishing Moves allowed a lot of diverse attacks, buffs and debuffs.

With Update 72, all Finishers are gone. This wasn't initially a serious concern for me, as I've been playing the Sacred Fist, a Monk-like Paladin with no Monk stances or ki regeneration, and it works very well. Similarly, starthrowers ("shuricannons") also couldn't use finishers.

But the 72 changes have effectively killed the melee Ninja Spy, made confusing additions to Shintao that made even more so of a mere pugilist with far fewer party support options. Only the Mystic tree gained a few benefits but at the expense of the Shintao's abilities.

I'm playing mostly Sacred Fists now, some starthrowers and Tabaxi Mystics. Many of the finishers could've been changed to philosophy and level restricted Feats. But this didn't happen, and I'm left looking at other classes and rethinking my subscription. Here's my review.

 

[TeachrSyncletica]

My review is a clear indicator that it's not worth the time (if I had more) to build any other guides for the class. I appreciate the work that the devs have made over the years. But this recent change strongly suggests that someone just moved crap around without understanding the benefits or deficits present from each tree.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

We acting Like melee Ns was ever viable? Lmao

 

[Mokune]

I've been a huge Monk fan since I started in 2009 and followed many of your guides through the years.

Finishing Moves were one thing specific and unique only to Monks like Alchemical Reactions are for Alchemist.

It's disappointing to say the least.

 

[TeachrSyncletica]

Of all the class trees, the Ninja Spy was able to kill more than a Shintao in one form or another. In melee, the Ninja's ability to stay off aggro allowed me to kill anything that wasn't a devil or machine (both poison and/or negative energy/level immune) with impunity. And unlike some classes, I could also outrun what I couldn't outgun.

So yes, I AM noting how Ninja Spies were powerful melees. Your gameplay (obviously) may vary. Starthrowers were and still are DPS beasts, surpassed only by some Ranger builds.

We acting Like melee Ns was ever viable? Lmao

 

[Shear-buckler]

Ninja spy was probably the least used tree in the game, that they didnt double down on the awefulness is a good thing.

 

[saekee]

hey, great writeup! Good to see you here again too.

The devs could have left the finishers/combos in place. It would have cost nothing.

The ninja tree seems almost entirely geared for epic or even legendary play except for the doublestrike in Tier 5, which is very strong in heroics and epics but almost neglible or overdone at cap (unless you are a hybrid build that could not fit in doublestrike stuff). The melee power was a welcome addition and deadly striker is so much better than having the multi at level 18. There is no PRR in the tree but I guess the idea is you grab it from the other two.

A sad element for me is that kamas only end up, at best (with swords to plowshares) to 16-20/3 (yes Brush hooks are sick but that stops at level 24). That is worse than a level 3 bard. There is no manriki chain attack in tier 5 like a Kusarigama; a race gets it (and since a race, even as a cleric or whatever) but ninjas do not (ridiculous, too, as the inspiration for SDK having this ability clearly came from the 80's fascination with ninjas). I advocated it on the Lam threads but it did not get through; what would it have cost to add that feat? Core 5 could have upgraded the chain attack, for example.

They considered having poison vulnerability debuff in the ninja tree but pulled it. So all that reliance on poison encounters a lot of trouble against poison-immune enemies, so much so that I just use the acid one out of henshin as the imbue.

My favorite toon to play is an Alt which uses the ki bolt setup by Tilomere. I use a dex-based toon but now, with the new trees, I only do enough in ninja spy for shadow veil. I went SWF for centered with kukris, getting me the +20 MP out of vistani and lots of doublestrike; I actually took tier 5 and Henshin capstone. I am experimenting still and might switch back to TWF, losing a big chunk of melee power but at least having two powerful debuffers. Will see; but it has been very fun and great in raids. If they nerf the synergy between draconic mantle and ki bolt, I will probably not bother much with the toon as it will become a generic damage dealer.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

Of all the class trees, the Ninja Spy was able to kill more than a Shintao in one form or another. In melee, the Ninja's ability to stay off aggro allowed me to kill anything that wasn't a devil or machine (both poison and/or negative energy/level immune) with impunity. And unlike some classes, I could also outrun what I couldn't outgun.

So yes, I AM noting how Ninja Spies were powerful melees. Your gameplay (obviously) may vary. Starthrowers were and still are DPS beasts, surpassed only by some Ranger builds.

I swear with every sentence your comedy skit is getting funnier How are u not filling Halls?

Shuriken is certainly decent dps but Wraps is more lol

NS melees > Shintao whats next SWF arti is also better than RC fighter/barb?

 

[TeachrSyncletica]

Whatever, dude.
This is the Monk section, not the "My Build's Better Than Yours" section.
When it comes to Monks, I've forgotten more than you'll ever know.

 

[Ying]

But the 72 changes have effectively killed the melee Ninja Spy, made confusing additions to Shintao that made even more so of a mere pugilist with far fewer party support options. Only the Mystic tree gained a few benefits but at the expense of the Shintao's abilities.

I'm playing mostly Sacred Fists now, some starthrowers and Tabaxi Mystics. Many of the finishers could've been changed to philosophy and level restricted Feats. But this didn't happen, and I'm left looking at other classes and rethinking my subscription. Here's my review.

NS T5/capstone melee hasn't ever really been a thing outside of flavor or meme builds. Handwraps have always eclipsed every other weapon for melee monks. And for that Shintao T5+capstone was and remains the most optimal damage.

Deep NS investment is only relevant for throwers. And the U72 changes to NS are a step down from prior versions utilizing Horizon Walker. By the numbers: Not being T5 HW you lose 34 RP, and you only gain 15 back (10 of which doesn't work). You also lose 10 dshot from HW. H/T to @Lominal for the analysis.

Henshin has been terrible since it was introduced. Part of that was because quarterstaves absolutely sucked (and still do) compared to other weapon options. Removing the quarterstave restrictions didn't really improve the tree. It's cute that it has a WIS trance now.

Sacred Fist doesn't have access to a trance, which severely hampers it's damage and tactical prowess.

The builder and finisher system was unique, quirky, and had the highest skill ceiling in the game. It was cool while it lasted.

 

[Lotoc]

the big strong points of henshin are melee power in every core (which got nerfed a bit years back) and +1 stacking crit multi inside cauldron, which now can have a 100% uptime. Cauldron also lets you stack arcane warrior's melee power and stacks it very fast as far as options go.
Henshin is genuinely underrated.

 

[Xgya]

When a name this known for their love of Monks says things about Monks, you LISTEN.
Hope this review gets the traction it needs.

 

[Rusty_helmet]

the big strong points of henshin are melee power in every core (which got nerfed a bit years back) and +1 stacking crit multi inside cauldron, which now can have a 100% uptime. Cauldron also lets you stack arcane warrior's melee power and stacks it very fast as far as options go.
Henshin is genuinely underrated.

SHHH

 

[DDO Noob]

NS T5/capstone melee hasn't ever really been a thing outside of flavor or meme builds. Handwraps have always eclipsed every other weapon for melee monks. And for that Shintao T5+capstone was and remains the most optimal damage.

Deep NS investment is only relevant for throwers. And the U72 changes to NS are a step down from prior versions utilizing Horizon Walker. By the numbers: Not being T5 HW you lose 34 RP, and you only gain 15 back (10 of which doesn't work). You also lose 10 dshot from HW. H/T to @Lominal for the analysis.

Henshin has been terrible since it was introduced. Part of that was because quarterstaves absolutely sucked (and still do) compared to other weapon options. Removing the quarterstave restrictions didn't really improve the tree. It's cute that it has a WIS trance now.

Sacred Fist doesn't have access to a trance, which severely hampers it's damage and tactical prowess.

The builder and finisher system was unique, quirky, and had the highest skill ceiling in the game. It was cool while it laste

If we look beyond just the most optimal damage, which monk weapon is now best for CC? There seem to be quite a few CC options in all 3 trees now and I think it would be interesting to try to build towards that with cherry picking from all the trees.

 

[Ying]

If we look beyond just the most optimal damage, which monk weapon is now best for CC? There seem to be quite a few CC options in all 3 trees now and I think it would be interesting to try to build towards that with cherry picking from all the trees.

Monk has plenty of CC with handwraps: Stunning Fist, Tomb of Jade, Kukan-Do, Nauseate, Dismissing Strike, Quivering Palm and with Drifting Lotus, EiN in EDs. Monk CC is so good it was fundamental to our R10 FoM completion.

Dismissing optimal damage is why players pigeonhole themselves with self-limiting beliefs of "I can't do reaper" or "I can't do raids".

Henshin is genuinely underrated.

DDO is way too frenetic to be standing in one spot long enough for cauldron to be relevant. It's terrible for blazing through quests.

 

[woq]

DDO is way too frenetic to be standing in one spot long enough for cauldron to be relevant. It's terrible for blazing through quests.

But it is absolutely fantastic for maintaining 90+ dodge cap in special circumstances and threat tanking in low/mid reaper raids.

Edit: I recommend you try out the radius you can play around in with Cauldron. You have plenty of room to turn around bosses and tumble in.

 

[Ying]

You're in the realm of specialized builds for niche circumstances. Sure, a dodge tank has done well in some high skull raids. But push raids are always going to be a highly controlled raid comp, with people on eyebrow raising builds to solve specific problems for that challenge.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

You're in the realm of specialized builds for niche circumstances. Sure, a dodge tank has done well in some high skull raids. But push raids are always going to be a highly controlled raid comp, with people on eyebrow raising builds to solve specific problems for that challenge.

why be organized if u can Pug push raid /s

 

[Holmgang]

You're in the realm of specialized builds for niche circumstances. Sure, a dodge tank has done well in some high skull raids. But push raids are always going to be a highly controlled raid comp, with people on eyebrow raising builds to solve specific problems for that challenge.

So what do you think would be a good viable build for 20 monk now

 

[Alternative]

41 shintao 23 henshin 16 ns should have the most melee power, with haste boost, and extra boosts from ns.

Kinda sad extra boosts in ninja cost 2ap per rank, while dlord ravager just got them for 1ap.