Update 72: The Unbalanced Monk

[TeachrSyncletica]

The only time ranged has ever been "good damage" is when Inquis was overperforming 5 years ago, and now. Ranged is a necessary evil for high reaper raid boss encounters, because reaper raids are not balanced. Melee (non THF) is the gold standard for doing "good damage".

Not the right thread or subforum for this, but my Dark Hunter/Horizon build does 5000-30000 damage. And I'm not much into min-maxing. It's just a brutally punishing combination.

Starthrowers are the only Monks whose DPS remains so crazy that I've soloed a few old raids with them. They are the squishiest of Monks, but only if you hit them a lot before you're killed, and that's not likely with good gameplay.

 

[PraetorPlato]

Not the right thread or subforum for this, but my Dark Hunter/Horizon build does 5000-30000 damage. And I'm not much into min-maxing. It's just a brutally punishing combination.

Starthrowers are the only Monks whose DPS remains so crazy that I've soloed a few old raids with them. They are the squishiest of Monks, but only if you hit them a lot before you're killed, and that's not likely with good gameplay.

that's not particularly good damage—rc melee, for instance, gets >5k fronts at literally 3x the attack speed of ranged.

 

[Ying]

Not the right thread or subforum for this, but my Dark Hunter/Horizon build does 5000-30000 damage. And I'm not much into min-maxing. It's just a brutally punishing combination.

Melee trump sustained damage and burst damage. Period. As it should be balanced, since melee take the greatest risk with death being in melee range. Ranged/nukers can perch and never be meleed, or they can kite while still doing damage.

Ranged damage doesn't even come close to melee, except when it overperforms like Inquis. You're not even defining the difficulty, accounting for number of attacks/min, or which debuffs are in play with your anecdotal numbers. An opening strike of 25k on R10 with zero debuffs (which is possible by melee) is very different than 25k in non-reaper with a mob debuffed by vuln/dust/shattered device/etc.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

Starthrowers are the only Monks whose DPS remains so crazy that I've soloed a few old raids with them. They are the squishiest of Monks, but only if you hit them a lot before you're killed, and that's not likely with good gameplay.

u have apparently never played a well build Shintao

 

[Teh_Troll]

u have apparently never played a well build Shintao

The more I read of this thread I don't believe many of these people have ever play monk at all.

Monks are in a great spot now. If you're monk is under performing the problem exists between the keyboard and the chair.

 

[Ying]

The more I read of this thread I don't believe many of these people have ever play monk at all.

Monks are in a great spot now. If you're monk is under performing the problem exists between the keyboard and the chair.

Too many players want to get lost in the fantasy of a character and prioritize that over game mechanics. Then they wonder why they struggle to do elite content.

 

[woq]

Too many players want to get lost in the fantasy of a character and prioritize that over game mechanics. Then they wonder why they struggle to do elite content.

Well in an ideal world the fantasy of a character should support power. The problem seems to be - looking at almost any archetype other than dragon lord - that the devs understand fantasy, but not mechanics or synergies, or what is required for a powerful character in this game or how to make the most of leaning on fantasy in a way that doesn't land in useless territory above low/middling difficulties.

There is nobody awake at the balancing team wheel.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

Well in an ideal world the fantasy of a character should support power. The problem seems to be - looking at almost any archetype other than dragon lord - that the devs understand fantasy, but not mechanics or synergies, or what is required for a powerful character in this game or how to make the most of leaning on fantasy in a way that doesn't land in useless territory above low/middling difficulties.

There is nobody awake at the balancing team wheel.

Nah it was an incredibly smart idea to give dragon disciple spells MCL 30 with NOTHING to support it
u cant even go some funky Splits with wildmage because its Locked behind the lv 18 and 20 cores

I genuinely wonder if player council is even remotely part of such processes and if are they just ignored?

 

[Teh_Troll]

I genuinely wonder if player council is even remotely part of such processes and if are they just ignored?

Better question . . . are the people on that council experienced enough to have opinions worth listening to?

 

[Phaedra]

The new monk changes made a lot of weird choices.

The "caster monk" is now a tank, except the "punchy monk" still has AC, saves, and healing amp in the cores and PRR in the tree.

 

[I dont Like gimps]

Better question . . . are the people on that council experienced enough to have opinions worth listening to?

the council attempts to have diverse members in Both experience and flower sniffing vs r10s no?

 

[DDO Noob]

Of late, I found that Ninja Spy + Feydark Mystic's Color Spray was absolutely brutal in stopping even Reapers in their tracks with the right DCs.
The reason for Feydark was that (1) they gained Force shortswords at Level 1 (Ninjas love 'em, all but golems hate 'em) and (2) the key DPS of Ninjas was Sneak Attack + Helpless damage for a VERY quick slice and chop of half of a paralyzed mob before they unfreeze and you repeat the death-dealing.

I just wanted to mention that I've been playing with Feydark Color Spray for a few levels now in heroics on a handwraps monk. I'm blown away by how good Color Spray is. I'm still on the fence on whether I prefer a handwraps or quarterstaff build. I think they are both viable.

The real dilemma for me is whether I continue with Color Spray once I reach epic levels. I just don't know if the CC's will work on mobs in epic quests. If it's not viable, then I will feat swap out Magical Training with Fred and pick up Precision or Power Attack and will have more points to put into the monk enhancement trees. Has anyone tried to keep with Feydard Color Spray on a dedicated monk in epics? Did it work for you?

 

[Ying]

GCS efficacy without gearing for Illusion DCs is completely dependent on the content you're doing and if reaper difficulty increased saving throws apply. Pre-expansion content like Marketplace+House quests, Gianthold, Vale, etc are not a good litmus test. I doubt you reliably land GCS in heroic R1 Sharn or Vecna to make mobs helpless. WIS builds can have some early success with GCS because WIS is one of three stats considered for GCS DCs.

 

[Sormiron]

I thought about going for feydark color spray but I thought the investment required to make it work in r8-10s to harsh for a passing life.
I've played a centered vistani alchemist with the deep gnome version. I used harpers and int to damage though. it worked against some monsters and some not. it was reliable once you learned what it worked on.
If you can fit in illusion dc feats and quicken then you should be good. I didnt bother with spell penetration.
you got to take every darned wisdom stat you can though.

the problem for me is the feats. I opted to not go for it this life but the dream is burst of glacial wrath + greater color spray.

when I tried the combo on the centered alchemist I had no problem getting the dc's good enough for epic leveling.
getting it to work well at cap was much harder.

Glacial wrath was much more difficult to make work and failed against a lot of tanky melee mobs.
greater color spray worked against almost everything.
just keep in mind of what type of mobs might have high\low will save for color spray and fort save for for glacial wrath if you pick that up.

Deep gnome gives +2 wisdom and+3 illusion dc in the tree and 20 wisdom start. (also awsome invis on tumble)

the con is that you need a +1 lesser heart or you miss class capstones. also you cant use the colorspray in the deep gnome tree since it is int based. (sadness)

also keep in mind that I am playing on a completionist so dreams might die with this sentence if you are a first lifer.

 

[DDO Noob]

I thought about going for feydark color spray but I thought the investment required to make it work in r8-10s to harsh for a passing life.
I've played a centered vistani alchemist with the deep gnome version. I used harpers and int to damage though. it worked against some monsters and some not. it was reliable once you learned what it worked on.
If you can fit in illusion dc feats and quicken then you should be good. I didnt bother with spell penetration.
you got to take every darned wisdom stat you can though.

the problem for me is the feats. I opted to not go for it this life but the dream is burst of glacial wrath + greater color spray.

when I tried the combo on the centered alchemist I had no problem getting the dc's good enough for epic leveling.
getting it to work well at cap was much harder.

Glacial wrath was much more difficult to make work and failed against a lot of tanky melee mobs.
greater color spray worked against almost everything.
just keep in mind of what type of mobs might have high\low will save for color spray and fort save for for glacial wrath if you pick that up.

Deep gnome gives +2 wisdom and+3 illusion dc in the tree and 20 wisdom start. (also awsome invis on tumble)

the con is that you need a +1 lesser heart or you miss class capstones. also you cant use the colorspray in the deep gnome tree since it is int based. (sadness)

also keep in mind that I am playing on a completionist so dreams might die with this sentence if you are a first lifer.

Thanks for your thoughts. I think context is everything and regarding my character, I'm only midway towards completionist and only play R1 to R4 as an average player as I slowly work my way through Racial lives. Because of the difficulty I play at, I think GCS is a far more viable option as opposed to you completionist monsters who like to solo R7 to R10 content.

 

[Sormiron]

Thanks for your thoughts. I think context is everything and regarding my character, I'm only midway towards completionist and only play R1 to R4 as an average player as I slowly work my way through Racial lives. Because of the difficulty I play at, I think GCS is a far more viable option as opposed to you completionist monsters who like to solo R7 to R10 content.

in all honesty I do not have the expectations to solo r7s when I try new stuff. definititely not while leveling.
r2 is isualy the solo leveling place, r4 if it goes smooth. at cap I aim to be usefull in r10s becouse that is where a lot of my friends play at.

the difference in dc requirements from evening star to ravenloft and up has always been a big hurdle to overcome. But generaly it has been relatively easy to get dc's high enough for epic leveling if I max the required stat, feats and craft the usual insightful bonuses and such.
the exceptions being trip & stunning blow dc's wich I used some year ago and caused me to have a meltdown and take a break.
I dont know if it was fixed but the dc's just didnt work.

I think you will atleast be able to use gcs on most melees and if you go for glacial wrath it will work on most casters.

I'm using falconry now and that is also pretty sweet. the aoe blind bird attack doesnt open for sneak attack wich is a bit annoying, but it is still very good to use in a full room defensively.
The lvl 18 core in ninjaspy has suprised me with it's usefullness while leveling. it's an on demand tank that diversion dummy. anything that can be intimidated goes for it and it lasts a while.

 

[TeachrSyncletica]

I just wanted to mention that I've been playing with Feydark Color Spray for a few levels now in heroics on a handwraps monk. I'm blown away by how good Color Spray is. I'm still on the fence on whether I prefer a handwraps or quarterstaff build. I think they are both viable.

The real dilemma for me is whether I continue with Color Spray once I reach epic levels. I just don't know if the CC's will work on mobs in epic quests. If it's not viable, then I will feat swap out Magical Training with Fred and pick up Precision or Power Attack and will have more points to put into the monk enhancement trees. Has anyone tried to keep with Feydard Color Spray on a dedicated monk in epics? Did it work for you?

You'll need to add in more Spell Focus. But I found Color Spray absolutely effective in Epic and Legendary.
Being able to stop Reapers cold is a cool bonus if you get your numbers up just right.

 

[Vertigo]

41 shintao 23 henshin 16 ns should have the most melee power, with haste boost, and extra boosts from ns.

Just tried monk again... funny enough ended up with this exact AP split. I find it a bit odd that Ying still stalwarts the older falcon-monk which may lead to better DC´s, helpless dmg and also 5% quality HP but omg having to rely on that annoying birdstrike to refill your trance is beyond annoying, esp in good groups. will also end up with 12 less MP, a useless imbue and worse dodge cap.

I'm not building for Quivering Palm at this point. It's too much of an investment to get there. Just use it on low save mobs. Most mobs you want to use it on are immune anyway. With quick strikes you don't have to cap doublestrike either but it is still good to build close to it for those random misses and/or raid boss beatdowns. My standing is 93% I think right now.
There's a ton of flexibility in monk, which is really really cool. There are a lot of effective builds and because the capstone is so good, I think the best monk builds will still effectively be 20 monk.

I´m using the same reasoning.... most things that aren´t reds have a survival time of .5 seconds in general.

I still think monk hits like a noodle despite all these changes but they are fun to play due to movement and effectiveness vs non-reds also great group utilities I still think DL-monks are superior DPS to standard 20 monk..