Variant Iconics

[Aelonwy]

I think the initial idea behind Iconics was a good one but often it is implemented in a corrupted, unappealing fashion. We need Variant Iconics that meet the classical definition of the word "Iconic."

To that end I suggest creating:

Jorasco Halfling Cleric Iconic
Faerun Drow of Eilistrae Bard Iconic
Talenta Halfling Barbarian Iconic
Gnome Artificier Iconic
Dwarven Barbarian Battlerager Iconic
Faerun Dwarven Defender Fighter Iconic
Aasimar Paladin Iconic
Halforc Druid Gatekeeper Apprentice Iconic
Dragonborn Sorcerer Iconic
Tiefling Warlock Iconic
Vulkoorim Drow Ranger Iconic

I admit I'm not sure what is most iconic to Warforged, or Half-elf, or what is absolute most Iconic for rogue but the above are all very iconic to their setting and would actually be race/class combos people desire to play. These would encourage sales and be meaningful characters within the lore of the worlds in which we play.

PSA: Just in case any are still unaware... Suggestion threads have a voting mechanism to the far right of the initial post. Likes and comments are welcome but if you like the idea please upvote there---------------------------->

 

[Lazuli]

Want to play an iconic spellcaster called an Elf Wizard or a Dragonborn Sorcerer? You ALREADY CAN.
No additional work necessary.

That is not true. We do not have the sun elf race as a base race, and its iconic is a cleric. The basic elf race that we have is not the elf mage archetype, is much more focused on archery than magic. An authentic iconic sun elf focused on widradry would be very appropriate, and is not currently represented. Sun elf as a basic race would also be interesting, it must be said.

There are various subraces of both elves, dwarves and halflings that we do not currently have represented and could be interesting to have.

Although I have to say that I am not interested in an iconic dragonborn sorc. I would like an iconic genasi.


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I really hate the first set class level on iconics. It should disappear and that the specialization is given by its iconic tree. It is contrary to the essence of DDO to restrict the construction of builds in this way

 

[Aelonwy]

When i asked for examples, the goal is "What makes this option not something players already have access to?"

When they created the first Iconics back with Shadowfell they told us the impetus to do so was to give players that bought said expansion an option to jump right into the content and yes I'm certain their reasons for making Iconics evolved as the game evolved but so do ours for what we choose to play and why. As the game continues to go higher in level to cap, I am just as certain that players old, new, and returning would want more options to play and get there at whatever pace meets their playstyle, play time and needs.

My main goal was to expand the Iconic options with choices that met the classic definition of Iconic. My secondary goal was to choose from among the available races and classes things that wouldn't cost too much dev time or effort but could be potentially fun for players if available.

Can players currently create a dragonborn sorcerer? Yes, at level 1. What if someone wants to start a sorcerer as close as possible to epics? MotU? Here, a dragonborn sorcerer Iconic would be exactly what they would want. Can someone start a Tiefling Bard at level 1? sure. But somehow the devs made a Tiefling Scoundrel unique and I have confidence they could do the same with Dragonborn Sorcerer Iconic.

And yes Lazuli, I would love a Genasi Sorcerer Iconic but that would assume they add Genasi to the game. In lieu of assuming they add an entirely new race with new animations, new frames, new textures... I gave the most classic example I could within the racial options available, as per my secondary goal.

 

[Xgya]

Can players currently create a dragonborn sorcerer? Yes, at level 1. What if someone wants to start a sorcerer as close as possible to epics? MotU? Here, a dragonborn sorcerer Iconic would be exactly what they would want.

See, if I thought THAT was the goal of the new Iconics, I'd instead be suggesting something like Veteran 4: start a character at level 15.
No artificial limits, like forcing it to only apply to a few select class/race combos, but, like the other veteran modes, only available for freshly created characters, to right into new content, or as close to epic as the devs will allow players to start as. (it could be higher than 15)
It might give a free TR to newer characters, but at this point into the game, I no longer think it's egregious.

The above I'd fully support.
It demands some level of dev time (to create Veteran 4 gearsets), but a minimal amount for the net gain of opportunities to "start characters as close as possible to epics".
It's a decent goal, one worth considering.
Creating brand new Iconic builds with abilities unique enough to warrant them existing as something other than "The same thing, but better" is beyond it.

Iconics in DDO are NOT the classical definition of Iconic.
The thing which represents the classical definition of Iconic already existed in DDO long before a few devs decided to call something else Iconic.
It was called a "character build", meant to represent a specific existing icon. I had a friend that refused to play anything that wasn't a Drow Ranger dual-wielding swords. So he did.

The problem is more of a wording issue than an actual issue with build availability
If the real problem is that what DDO calls an Iconic isn't what most people call Iconic, then just ask to have DDO change the word.
Here's the brand new Warforged Paladin *Divergence*. (heh, not my best work)

I'm fully ready to admit there ARE a few iconic builds that AREN'T available right now, and those we COULD implement. But it goes without saying that many classically iconic builds are already available without any extra work necessary.

 

[Anurakh]

For sure. The current design of the iconic ones has always annoyed me.

 

[Ungermax]

I think the initial idea behind Iconics was a good one but often it is implemented in a corrupted, unappealing fashion. We need Variant Iconics that meet the classical definition of the word "Iconic."

To that end I suggest creating:

Jorasco Halfling Cleric Iconic
Faerun Drow of Eilistrae Bard Iconic
Talenta Halfling Barbarian Iconic
Gnome Artificier Iconic
Dwarven Barbarian Battlerager Iconic
Faerun Dwarven Defender Fighter Iconic
Aasimar Paladin Iconic
Halforc Druid Gatekeeper Apprentice Iconic
Dragonborn Sorcerer Iconic
Tiefling Warlock Iconic
Vulkoorim Drow Ranger Iconic

I admit I'm not sure what is most iconic to Warforged, or Half-elf, or what is absolute most Iconic for rogue but the above are all very iconic to their setting and would actually be race/class combos people desire to play. These would encourage sales and be meaningful characters within the lore of the worlds in which we play.

PSA: Just in case any are still unaware... Suggestion threads have a voting mechanism to the far right of the initial post. Likes and comments are welcome but if you like the idea please upvote there---------------------------->

I think this is a great idea and particularly the Aasimar Paladin feels the most appropriate there, although Dwarven (Duergar?) Battlerager and Dragonborn Sorcerer also appeals as a concepts.

Most on your list are way more appropriate to the term iconic than what we currently had. Like no D&D player woke up one day and said I want to make an elf, like the elfiest elf you ever saw, YES OF COURSE ITS A CLERIC! Nobody said that before DDO. An iconic elf would be a fighter/wizard made in the image of Corellan Larethian, or possibly a Rogue that fully embodies the espionage associated with House Phiarlan. An elf might make a decent cleric character in a real D&D campaign but its pretty far from iconic.

So yeah, I'd be very interested in Iconic Variants. Every single race should have at least one iconic option, if not two.

P.S. Personally I would say Artificer would suit a Warforged as it is supposedly the same power that made them, so could be played off as being their most natural magic much like sorcery would be to a Dragonborn. But thats just me A gnome artificer does feel as appropriate though, if not more.

 

[jmervyn]

I think it's a sound concept (upvoted). As I understood it, part of the reason for Iconics was to allow enjoyable play of higher-end content (Sharn) without getting all grindy or having to keep extensive stashes of gear.

Along the same lines, I wonder why Veteran III (level 10) hasn't been seen since, what, January 2022? Is there some reason it's considered so precious that it can't be sold as an account benefit, or at least available for active VIP?

 

[Hobgoblin]

i want dwarf barb battlerager

i want a new halfling called a kender and be a rogue

wf - scout ranger

 

[Sophie The Cat Burglar]

I intensely dislike all existing Iconic characters. If more get added, please make Class, Iconic, and Race feats work like Epic feats--let us pick the ones we want when resetting from 30 to 1.

Edit: To be clear, I do not wish to denigrate all the Iconic ideas in this thread. I realize Iconic races are popular. I am asking for a better solution for those of us who would rather play a character we enjoy to obtain extremely useful feats.

 

[PurpleSerpent]

i want a new halfling called a kender and be a rogue

Yeah, that one's not happening. Partially because the Dragonlance rights cost way too much, and partially because the Kender are... controversial among D&D fans, even after the 5E rewrite.

 

[Aelonwy]

Addendum: Adding the suggestions put forward by others in this thread.

Warforged Juggernaut Fighter Iconic
Half-elf Rogue Iconic (House Medani)
Sunelf Wizard Iconic (maybe access to a slightly altered Palemaster Tree that reflects the Baelnorn tradition of Elves)
Sulatar Drow Firebinder Sorcerer Iconic (access to some Giant-ish fire magic as per their continued bond with the Fire Giants)

I'd like to do a Shadar-kai Warlock Iconic but I'm confused as to whether the followers of the Raven Queen are the same type of Shadar-kai as those connected to the Netherese and Shar.

 

[Xgya]

I'd like to do a Shadar-kai Warlock Iconic but I'm confused as to whether the followers of the Raven Queen are the same type of Shadar-kai as those connected to the Netherese and Shar.

This is more about the retcon betweeen 3.5 and 5e Shadar-Kai.
There's technically three kind. (cursed fey, human netherese, elf)
The DDO kind are the extraplanar fey kind - several quests mention their extraplanar nature and, what is unique to the fey kind, the Shadow Curse.

 

[Purr]

One of the Eberron novels had a guy with thr mark of storm. I'd love to see the dragon marked characters get a ton of love.

 

[Aelonwy]

This is more about the retcon betweeen 3.5 and 5e Shadar-Kai.
There's technically three kind. (cursed fey, human netherese, elf)
The DDO kind are the extraplanar fey kind - several quests mention their extraplanar nature and, what is unique to the fey kind, the Shadow Curse.

So they are the cursed fey type but work with/for the Netherese? So a Raven Queen Warlock Patron is possible but the problem is cold is already taken, so what would be an appropriate pact damage? or could they be an alternate cold pact? Raven Queen is anti-undead, that could feature in somehow. I'll mull over it some more.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Addendum: Adding the suggestions put forward by others in this thread.

Warforged Juggernaut Fighter Iconic
Half-elf Rogue Iconic (House Medani)
Sunelf Wizard Iconic (maybe access to a slightly altered Palemaster Tree that reflects the Baelnorn tradition of Elves)
Sulatar Drow Firebinder Sorcerer Iconic (access to some Giant-ish fire magic as per their continued bond with the Fire Giants)

I'd like to do a Shadar-kai Warlock Iconic but I'm confused as to whether the followers of the Raven Queen are the same type of Shadar-kai as those connected to the Netherese and Shar.

maybe not a sun elf - but an elf of the undying court?

aeranal i think?

would work with the pm tree imo

 

[Xgya]

So they are the cursed fey type but work with/for the Netherese? So a Raven Queen Warlock Patron is possible but the problem is cold is already taken, so what would be an appropriate pact damage? or could they be an alternate cold pact? Raven Queen is anti-undead, that could feature in somehow. I'll mull over it some more.

We already have pacts for all the energy types (and negative)
A pact with both positive energy might be interesting to look at, even though it'd only work on very specific foes.
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Second check, the NPC Shadar-Kai are the cursed fey kind, but PC Shadar-Kai count as humans, so they're either not the same kind of creature, or DDO introduced the Netherese human version, and gave them the Shadow Curse)

 

[Aelonwy]

We already have pacts for all the energy types (and negative)
A pact with both positive energy might be interesting to look at, even though it'd only work on very specific foes.
--------------------------------
Second check, the NPC Shadar-Kai are the cursed fey kind, but PC Shadar-Kai count as humans, so they're either not the same kind of creature, or DDO introduced the Netherese human version, and gave them the Shadow Curse)

See, I said our Shadar-kai are very confusing. They may count as human but they neither get the first level bonus feat nor the extra skill points humans do. DDOwiki says they are Extraplanar, from the plane of shadow. So Human? Elven? Fey? Outsider? which is it?

 

[Xgya]

See, I said our Shadar-kai are very confusing. They may count as human but they neither get the first level bonus feat nor the extra skill points humans do. DDOwiki says they are Extraplanar, from the plane of shadow. So Human? Elven? Fey? Outsider? which is it?

All of them are extraplanar save the elf kind, so we've at least ruled one out.
None of them are outsiders. Extraplanar just means the spells that specifically send someone back to their home plane work on them. A Wizard that Plane Shifts to the Abyss becomes Extraplanar so long as he remains there. He's not a native, he can be Banished from there.

One of the remaining options is a Fey(extraplanar), the other is a Humanoid(human, extraplanar), both native to the Plane of Shadow (or Shadowfell)

The one the players play seems to be the Human sort.
The NPCs are the Fey sort.
You'll notice a complete lack of Shadow Curse on players, but the NPCs definitely have it.

 

[Aelonwy]

How could they have implemented the Shadow Curse on players anyway? If its the one from the Raven Queen that would just mean Shadar Kai treat death as semi meaningless and care very little about their physical bodies. They know their soul goes back to the Shadowfell and the Raven Queen will resurrect them for her further purposes. Oh gee look, our characters resurrect at shrines in taverns and guildships... except for the going back to the Shadowfell seems we already treat it like we're cursed.

 

[Kraft Lorance]

I think 3 of them are excluded because they are still considered Premium classes Alchemist, Artificier, and Favored Soul? right? Maybe they can overcome that hurdle by including the purchase of the base class with the Iconic? But certainly the other three should get an Iconic first. Preferably one that makes sense to our worlds.

I think what they should do (as a larger revamp of the Favor systems), is have a Dragonborn Iconic that's a favored soul of Bahamut. "Dragonborn of Bahamut" was a 3.5 D&D class, so mining that for anything useable and making it a racial tree, and giving us a platinum dragonborn as a lead-in to metallic Dragonborn would be awesome. And then have that Iconic be pegged to the same favor reward that unlocks Favored Soul.

(To be fair, I had this idea back before they restructured what was Pay2Play, and my original idea included having the Dragonborn race at unlocked at that benchmark too).

I know you prefer Dragonborn sorcerer, though. I'm not opposed to that. And every other suggestion you made in your original suggestion is something I would also love to see.

 

[Kraft Lorance]

This is more about the retcon betweeen 3.5 and 5e Shadar-Kai.
There's technically three kind. (cursed fey, human netherese, elf)
The DDO kind are the extraplanar fey kind - several quests mention their extraplanar nature and, what is unique to the fey kind, the Shadow Curse.

(Sorry for the double post) Don't forget that Shadowfell conspiracy is using 4th edition lore.

"Officially, the Shadar-Kai have a different origin in the Forgotten Realms in 4E. In The Realms, at least as of 4E, The Raven Queen does not exist (The FRs are not the default setting of 4E). In The Realms, the Shadar-kai are the result of the Spellplague mingling humans (of the Netherese Empire, who fled the fall of their empire to the Shadowfell) with shadow magic and producing a new race. Their basic attributes and behavior are the same as in the 'Core' 4E world.
Source: Dragon Magazine #391, p.13"

You can find a nice little write up of Shadar-Kai in all 3 editions here. I'm quoting the 4th edition addendum verbatim