Variant Iconics

[Aelonwy]

I think the initial idea behind Iconics was a good one but often it is implemented in a corrupted, unappealing fashion. We need Variant Iconics that meet the classical definition of the word "Iconic."

To that end I suggest creating:

Jorasco Halfling Cleric Iconic
Faerun Drow of Eilistrae Bard Iconic
Talenta Halfling Barbarian Iconic
Gnome Artificier Iconic
Dwarven Barbarian Battlerager Iconic
Faerun Dwarven Defender Fighter Iconic
Aasimar Paladin Iconic
Halforc Druid Gatekeeper Apprentice Iconic
Dragonborn Sorcerer Iconic
Tiefling Warlock Iconic
Vulkoorim Drow Ranger Iconic

I admit I'm not sure what is most iconic to Warforged, or Half-elf, or what is absolute most Iconic for rogue but the above are all very iconic to their setting and would actually be race/class combos people desire to play. These would encourage sales and be meaningful characters within the lore of the worlds in which we play.

PSA: Just in case any are still unaware... Suggestion threads have a voting mechanism to the far right of the initial post. Likes and comments are welcome but if you like the idea please upvote there---------------------------->

 

[Phaedra]

I'd vote a suitable Iconic for Warforged would be Fighter. They were litterally manufactured for war - so thematically it works.
Half-Elf, would be a good race for Rogue - and introduce the Dragonmark of Detection along side/exclusive to them.

House Lyrandar Half-Elf Sorcerer Archetype: Storm Summoner Sorcerer
Remove Earth Elemental tree for a new tree with some multiselectors (example: ice storm/lightning storm), an upgradable elemental (Air/Water) a la the Pale Master skeleton, (Iconic)Racial tree add Sovereign Dragonmark of Storm and other Dragonmark enhancements.

 

[Phaedra]

Well there is already an iconic for Aasimar but you didn't object to the Paladin variant, and multiple drow and halfling suggestions. The whole idea behind Variant Iconics besides character concepts that are actually lore based "Iconic" concepts to that race is that there can be multiple versions of an iconic character to that race. Look at drow for example - Iconic to the lore of Faerun drow are Cleric of Lolth, Wizard of the Underdark, Warrior of the Spider Queen, and Bard of Eilistrae. Since we try not to dabble in Evil characters in DDO; I selected Bard of Eilistrae.

I think that DDO's Iconics should preference Eberron lore, and although FR does have a share of Iconic D&D characters (Really just two, prior to BG3), one's "Iconic" because he's deliberately atypical, and the other is iconic because he's basically FR-Gandalf.

 

[Phaedra]

I want to say Dismissal/Banishment but we all know how poorly those work in DDO so if they used them in the racial tree it would be corrupt-a-wish.

Instead of the terrible banishment/dismissal spells, give them Turn Undead Outsiders.

 

[Aelonwy]

House Lyrandar Half-Elf Sorcerer Archetype: Storm Summoner Sorcerer
Remove Earth Elemental tree for a new tree with some multiselectors (example: ice storm/lightning storm), an upgradable elemental (Air/Water) a la the Pale Master skeleton, (Iconic)Racial tree add Sovereign Dragonmark of Storm and other Dragonmark enhancements.

I like this suggestion. I once made a Half-elf artificier to use the synergies between the Dragonmark spells and the class spells but dragonmark spells just didn't have enough castings/utility to make it worthwhile. But making it between elec vs cold almost makes it like Stormsinger.

I think that DDO's Iconics should preference Eberron lore, and although FR does have a share of Iconic D&D characters (Really just two, prior to BG3), one's "Iconic" because he's deliberately atypical, and the other is iconic because he's basically FR-Gandalf.

These aren't iconic characters like everyone knows them (per your example Drizzt and Elminster) these are iconic to the lore such as you would see in the racial section of the PHB where it will say the favored/favorite class(es) of that race.

Instead of the terrible banishment/dismissal spells, give them Turn Undead Outsiders.

Now that is an inspired idea.

 

[Phaedra]

These aren't iconic characters like everyone knows them (per your example Drizzt and Elminster) these are iconic to the lore such as you would see in the racial section of the PHB where it will say the favored/favorite class(es) of that race.

And even aside from my own distaste for FR (it's both sooo generic and "fantasy kitchen sink"), nothing about iconic classes requires them to be based on FR lore, especially when Eberron is also more iconically DDO.

I'd like to see more House Iconics, but we're probably better served in general by adding a Dragonmark Heir Universal(ish) tree.

If they fix pet AI and scaling, a Talenta Halfling Barbarian with Dino pet would be great.

 

[The_Apocalypse]

Half-Orc Beastmaster (Barbarian Arch - Ranger mix - tiger pet)

 

[Aelonwy]

And even aside from my own distaste for FR (it's both sooo generic and "fantasy kitchen sink"), nothing about iconic classes requires them to be based on FR lore, especially when Eberron is also more iconically DDO.

I'd like to see more House Iconics, but we're probably better served in general by adding a Dragonmark Heir Universal(ish) tree.

If they fix pet AI and scaling, a Talenta Halfling Barbarian with Dino pet would be great.

Part of the point is that we can do both. FR and Eberron and whatever other campaigns they add. As you can see from the list I posted in the OP, there are both FR and Eberron lore-based iconics. And Talenta Halfing is third on the list.

 

[Phaedra]

Part of the point is that we can do both. FR and Eberron and whatever other campaigns they add. As you can see from the list I posted in the OP, there are both FR and Eberron lore-based iconics. And Talenta Halfing is third on the list.

I mean... We, you and I the rest of th community, can present as many ideas as we want, but SSG has to make them, which is the real bottleneck.

My question is, how is a Faerun Drow Bard of Eilistrea (for example) iconic and differentiable from any other drow bard. Eberron already has "Drow but not evil" the only thing arguably interesting about the Faerun version is irrelevant when it isn't cast as the sole alternative to "all dark elves are evil"

 

[Xgya]

Look at drow for example - Iconic to the lore of Faerun drow are Cleric of Lolth, Wizard of the Underdark, Warrior of the Spider Queen, and Bard of Eilistrae. Since we try not to dabble in Evil characters in DDO; I selected Bard of Eilistrae.

I do like your Beast Lord idea for a druid variant... or would that be an archetype?

It's really hard to see the Archetype/Iconic demarcation.

I wish DDO devs actually traced that line, but I also like that it's an open design space.

As for tying an iconic to an archetype, DDO already did it to some extent, with the Iconic Eladrin. Though I doubt they'd do it for Warlock because Acolyte exists, there IS precedent.
Sure, you can eventually create a normal Sorc Chaosmancer, but that's obviously not the intent behind the Iconic.

As for the Drow ideas, seeing we have Dark Apostates available, I'd be okay with evil-ish things. My pick would be Warrior of the Spider, if only to give Shadar-Kai Chain attacks to a class it makes sense on. (chains are an exotic weapons, Fighers tend to have enough feats to consider those, other classes, not so much.)

 

[Phaedra]

As for the Drow ideas, seeing we have Dark Apostates available, I'd be okay with evil-ish things. My pick would be Warrior of the Spider, if only to give Shadar-Kai Chain attacks to a class it makes sense on. (chains are an exotic weapons, Fighers tend to have enough feats to consider those, other classes, not so much.)

I think Dark Apostate is better justified by Eberron's "grey and grey morality" We can have Paladins for Vol and the Undying Court, so in Eberron, Necromancy isn't always evil. Making PC Lolth-worshippers either breaks open the hard boundary of allowing evil PCs, or breaks the lore.

 

[Xgya]

I think Dark Apostate is better justified by Eberron's "grey and grey morality" We can have Paladins for Vol and the Undying Court, so in Eberron, Necromancy isn't always evil. Making PC Lolth-worshippers either breaks open the hard boundary of allowing evil PCs, or breaks the lore.

The necromancy bit I could give or pass, so would that imaginary "hard boundary".

Good point on the lore breaking bit though, given FR characters are eventually recruited to fight Lolth, having one of her agents seems like it might cause a kerfuffle.
I really thought this was a good way to add another access points to those chain attacks though.

One of the few sample monsters we have in the original Monster Manual that uses a chain is an ex-human Vampire Fighter, so giving it to a "evil" Fighter just made sense to me.

 

[Anurakh]

It's really hard to see the Archetype/Iconic demarcation.

Realistically the only difference is that iconic characters start at 15 and have a fixed class level.

The devs have never pursued creating iconic characters (by lore) with the iconics, so the iconic character was from the beginning "a character with a vague background connection and special mechanics different from the base class that has a default". Since the latter is what happens with archetypes, the difference between the two is currently null. The only difference is that iconics have the differences in the racial tree and the archetypes in the class trees. But the idea behind both is the same. Exchange one tree for another.

If the devs fixed the iconic characters to be really iconic to the lore it would be different. But currently iconic and archetypes are exactly the same, with the only difference being the level at which they start and the scam to sell +1 hearts that the iconic characters have attached.

 

[Uska]

That is brilliant, I'd love to see more of the Houses demonstrated in the game. I don't know how they would translate the SLAs of the Mark of Detection, they seem like Divination type magic of which we understandably have very little in DDO.

Well it’s pretty easy for lesser and greater see invisible true sight

 

[Uska]

The necromancy bit I could give or pass, so would that imaginary "hard boundary".

Good point on the lore breaking bit though, given FR characters are eventually recruited to fight Lolth, having one of her agents seems like it might cause a kerfuffle.
I really thought this was a good way to add another access points to those chain attacks though.

One of the few sample monsters we have in the original Monster Manual that uses a chain is an ex-human Vampire Fighter, so giving it to a "evil" Fighter just made sense to me.

There is no chain using vampire in my original 1978 monster manual

 

[Phaedra]

Good point on the lore breaking bit though, given FR characters are eventually recruited to fight Lolth, having one of her agents seems like it might cause a kerfuffle.
I really thought this was a good way to add another access points to those chain attacks though.

I know we already have Dragonlord, but they could be a great fit for another Fighter Archetype.
You could even give it a multiselector for chain attacks that are functionally the same as SDK, a version that works with Exotic melee weapons, or one for 2handers maybe by losing the +1W off the basic version and the +10% damage off the Greater version.

Have it replace the Kensai tree:
Core 1 Multiselector: Chain Attack (Light Melee Req as SDK) Exotic Weapon Master: (Req at least 1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency, as SDK Chain without the +1W) Great Weapon Master (Chain attack as SDK, with the +1W, req 2-hander)
Core 2: Vicious Chain
Core 3: Forceful Chain but higher of dex or str (Passive +1 Competence Bonus to crit mult for all weapons)
Core 4 Multiselector (req Core 1 version) Greater Chain Attack (as SDK) Exotic Greater Chain Attack (as SDK without the +10% damage; req exotic instead of req light) 2H Greater Chain Attack (as SDK without the +10% damage; req 2H instead of req light)
Core 5: +5% Doublestrike and +10% Strikethrough +10 MPow; Activating Haste Boost reduces the cooldown on your chain attacks by 1 sec
Core6 Multiselector: +4 STR +15% Doublestrike +20 MPow +2 Action Boost Uses +2 Tactics DC or +4 DEX +15% Doublestrike +20 MPow +2 Action Boost Uses +4 Trip DC

 

[Xgya]

There is no chain using vampire in my original 1978 monster manual

I meant the original 3.5 manual

 

[Uska]

I meant the original 3.5 manual

oh the bad monster manual all of them are bad after 1st ed including 2nd edition the best monster manual for a d&d style game is the Hackmaster 5th edition one it even looks like a monster