Want to reduce lag/server load? Cap AOE targets affected

droid327

Well-known member
Unpopular suggestion, I'm sure, but having unlimited targets affected by AOEs just encourages the kind of zerg-herd-burn gameplay that, I'm sure, puts acute load on the server. IF AOE abilities had a max target count - nothing too limiting, about as much as you "should" encounter in the biggest single spawn (like 8 or 9?) - then that would encourage smoother, steadier combat, and eliminate the incentive to herd and burn.
 
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Dude

Well-known member
Unpopular suggestion, I'm sure, but having NPCs, combat arts, spells, epic destinies, and enhancements just encourages the kind of combat behavior that puts an acute load on the server. Removing all of these to allow pure exploration would definitely cut down on the load each server faces from having people play the game.
 

Visik

Well-known member
So we should penalize what is arguably the best strategy for casters to stretch their Spell Points when soloing?

That doesn't sound like a solution; soloing a caster is easier than it was before SLAs, but I don't think it's ready for this.. at least not for newbies.

Besides, it's possible you're just exchanging one set of lag-inducing calculations for another.
 
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Smokewolf

Well-known member
Unpopular suggestion, I'm sure, but having unlimited targets affected by AOEs just encourages the kind of zerg-herd-burn gameplay that, I'm sure, puts acute load on the server. IF AOE abilities had a max target count - nothing too limiting, about as much as you "should" encounter in the biggest single spawn (like 8 or 9?) - then that would encourage smoother, steadier combat, and eliminate the incentive to herd and burn.
I'd be more in favor of stepping away from the system that adds massive numbers of mobs to increase challenge.

In the short-term this was fine and dandy, yet it's pretty apparent that the servers can no longer keep up with even a modest number of players. Bring back the concepts of stealth and team play that were so essential to pen and paper play. Where there were clear role divisions that required more build throught than just simpy maximizing DPS.
 

Zoveride

Member
Unpopular suggestion, I'm sure, but having unlimited targets affected by AOEs just encourages the kind of zerg-herd-burn gameplay that, I'm sure, puts acute load on the server. IF AOE abilities had a max target count - nothing too limiting, about as much as you "should" encounter in the biggest single spawn (like 8 or 9?) - then that would encourage smoother, steadier combat, and eliminate the incentive to herd and burn.
Alternatively - reduce monster spawn. Perhaps the high amount of monsters thrown into every quest is herding players into using any and all types of AoE to move through quests.
 
With a wizard as my primary, this is a wholehearted no. Nerfed DPS and limited spell points will make a psuedo-ineffectual class useless.
 

droid327

Well-known member
I'd be more in favor of stepping away from the system that adds massive numbers of mobs to increase challenge.

In the short-term this was fine and dandy, yet it's pretty apparent that the servers can no longer keep up with even a modest number of players. Bring back the concepts of stealth and team play that were so essential to pen and paper play. Where there were clear role divisions that required more build throught than just simpy maximizing DPS.

Alternatively - reduce monster spawn. Perhaps the high amount of monsters thrown into every quest is herding players into using any and all types of AoE to move through quests.

This is also a good suggestion, and one I've made separately - moving away from only having spawns of 5-6 trash mobs filling every quest, to maybe having spawn points hold 2-3 double-HP mob "parties" where they boost each other's efficacy (like in Pilgrims Peril), or single "miniboss" mobs with 5-6x HP and greatly increased offense and special abilities (and even more if they roll as Champs).

But, while that'd help reduce the advantage of AOE for individual encounters, it doesnt solve the problem of herding - it just lets you train them farther before you need stop to take out the herd. I think that'd just incentivize it even more, by reducing the effectiveness of DA in preventing people from blitzing quests, which is the main anti-zerg mechanic right now.

I just dont see any way around it besides capping mobs affected. Melee AOE has a kind of soft cap, because you can only fit so many mobs into your hitbox, but casters have a much wider range. Range AOE likewise is pretty small, or has less useful geometries like straight-line AOE. That means casters are getting effective individual DPS that's like 8x higher than melee. That's way more than is warranted from the tradeoffs of lower defense, and its always going to be that way as long as casters can hit like 16 mobs at once.
 

Blaster

Well-known member
and cap damage, cap procs, cap debuffs, cap effects and remove reaper points.

Or just move to 64 bit server, problem solved.
Unfortunately the 64-bit servers are not a catch-all solution for lag; in their respective appearances on Fridays at Four, both Severlin and Tolero stated as such.

There are multiple factors that contribute to lag, including coding in individual quests, and since it is the quest itself that is causing lag, the problem persists on both 64-bit and 32-bit servers. (Tolero specifically pointed to White Plume Mountain and how things such as the ambient lighting in the crab boss fight causes an issue.)

DDO will most likely never be lag-free, with all the time work the team can put into adressing it, it may become less severe or consistent, but lag doubtfully can be fully eliminated.
 

Buddha5440

Trainer of those who beat dead horses
I'd be more in favor of stepping away from the system that adds massive numbers of mobs to increase challenge.

In the short-term this was fine and dandy, yet it's pretty apparent that the servers can no longer keep up with even a modest number of players. Bring back the concepts of stealth and team play that were so essential to pen and paper play. Where there were clear role divisions that required more build throught than just simpy maximizing DPS.
^THIS 100%!!!

Why should every class have an AoE attack, CC abilities, Healing (other than potions/scrolls), etc.?
 
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droid327

Well-known member
^THIS 100%!!!

Why should every class have an AoE attack, CC abilities, Healing (other than potions/scrolls), etc.?

Well every class should be functionally soloable, though its perfectly fine to have different strengths and approaches to completing content
 

Bjond

Well-known member
If you want until you have 10 sacks of garbage before taking out the trash, you just might be a Sorcerer.
 

GrizzlyOso

Well-known member
Unfortunately the 64-bit servers are not a catch-all solution for lag; in their respective appearances on Fridays at Four, both Severlin and Tolero stated as such.

There are multiple factors that contribute to lag, including coding in individual quests, and since it is the quest itself that is causing lag, the problem persists on both 64-bit and 32-bit servers. (Tolero specifically pointed to White Plume Mountain and how things such as the ambient lighting in the crab boss fight causes an issue.)

DDO will most likely never be lag-free, with all the time work the team can put into adressing it, it may become less severe or consistent, but lag doubtfully can be fully eliminated.
And yet, I’ve never lagged in the crab fight
 

Smokewolf

Well-known member
Well every class should be functionally soloable, though its perfectly fine to have different strengths and approaches to completing content
Not really... There in lies the problem with the game when there is the mistaken belief that 1 man is an army. This goes against D&D's concept of team play, the Holy Trinity (Melee, Caster, Specialist). In favor of becoming more like WOW, to be able to complete against it. Sixteen years on, a bloated system that no longer scales, and todays combat that has more in common with wave assault than DnD.
 

Alternative

Well-known member
There are often lag spikes when Im just starting a quest and run up to the very first group of mobs. Sorry but nerfs like this have never fixed anything. Purple DA hasnt fixed anything. I feel the agenda here is to just nerf casters more.
 

mikarddo

Well-known member
The attack speed of melee with many different procs going off is probably easily as much a culprit as AoE damage is.

I do see merit in your suggestion - but obviously only if they very significantly boost caster damage (and to a lesser degree some melee styles) before doing so AND they also significantly reduce how faster melee / some ranged attack.

If we are talking about Night Revels - where zerging is even more profitable because the mobs are so incredible weak - the it wont matter. Even a single target melee can rush everything, just kill the few mobs needed and teleport out. So in those quests it has little to do with AoE. And its even worse right now as many of the mobs simply stop moving completely yet remain aggro.
 

Bjond

Well-known member
against D&D's concept of team play, the Holy Trinity (Melee, Caster, Specialist)
Naw, if PnP cared about group play, you'd not be able to create such powerful solo characters. D&D is more about dice-arbitrated improv these days, though it's roots are tabletop miniature wargame.

In a true trinity game, you simply can't progress without a group. The only games I know that take it that far are FFXI and FFXIV. Most others are more group-favored than group-exclusive.
 

VoodooMike

Active member
Unpopular suggestion, I'm sure, but having unlimited targets affected by AOEs just encourages the kind of zerg-herd-burn gameplay that, I'm sure, puts acute load on the server. IF AOE abilities had a max target count - nothing too limiting, about as much as you "should" encounter in the biggest single spawn (like 8 or 9?) - then that would encourage smoother, steadier combat, and eliminate the incentive to herd and burn.

Yes, that is an unpopular opinion, and isn't something that would change anything about the server performance because we know exactly what is causing the "lag" at the server level, and its not AoE attacks.

The hangups are from the frequent and rapid loop being done to calculate all the relevant numbers based on all the passive effects that exist in an area around any "active" entity, which includes any interactable thing in the game. We KNOW this because the lag spikes can be pretty reliably created in any quest that has a large number of breakables in close proximity to one another, and because the only fix they made that reliably alleviated the problem was one in which those numbers were no longer calculated using that rapid looping, but which they reversed because it led to too much incorrect calculating of relevant in-game stats.

They've tried everything except an overhaul of that loop. They've tried making interactable things like enemies not become interactable until you get within like... 5 inches of their faces, and avoiding processing of anything in any part of the map that doesn't have an active player entity in it (which is why leaving henchmen or pets on "stay" while moving to a completely different part of the map can make things worse). The base loop is clearly some sort of recursive mess that needs major work rather than an endless number of slap-patches.
 

Ryiah

Well-known member
And yet, I’ve never lagged in the crab fight
You're misunderstanding the problem. The crab fight is a graphics performance problem. Modern renderers have a few techniques to help improve the performance of aspects of rendering that have traditionally been heavy like light sources. DDO's renderer doesn't have these techniques so there is not only an upper limit on the number of light sources affecting a single object but also the performance hit scales up much more quickly.

Games built on DirectX 9-era techniques typically cap out at 4 to 8 light sources with the performance hit becoming drastic past 4. Modern renderers can handle hundreds to thousands of non-shadow casting with some engines like Unreal Engine 5 and it's Mega Lights handling thousands or more shadow casting lights.

Tolero is labeling everything as "lag" because that's what most people think of and understand. The crab fight simply has too many light sources on some of the objects in the scene and it's impacting performance for people with low-to-mid tier hardware. For people like me who are on a recent and/or high-end CPU and GPU with a variable refresh rate display it's only visible if we turn on the frame rate counter.
 
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