Weapon uselessness

mbartol

Murder Hobo
thats an interesting idea, I still want a Regenerating troll for great clubs and a minotaur race so I can dual wield great axes, or a Thrikeen with the quad wielding 4 arms hehe
Minotaur would make a great addition to a Dragonlance expansion. Along with Kender as a Halfling variant (like Wood Elf).

Edit: sorry for the double post—forgot to quote multiple posts.
 
Why stop there? Might as well ask for marilith as a playable race.
the ones I mentioned can be played in Pen and paper, and I'm not sure why but no matter what gets posted u seem to have a negative reply for it, so feel free to not reply at all if you don't agree with it instead of adding trolling comments or sarcasm. I know your ssg and will prob get my post banned but hey if it gets you to stop i'm all for it. No matter what someone has to say about SSg problems you pop on and argue on their behalf, when all we are doing is having a open discourse about issues and offering suggestions that could resolve them or enhance the game. if you dont agree instead of negatives offer positive suggestions that ppl would appreciate. In the future don't respond to anything I post unless its with ideas instead of sarcasm and criticism. Also the races I suggested, (unlike a Marilith) have major downsides Trolls weak against fire which is heavily used by npcs in game Thri-keen can't handle cold due to being bugs and minotuars are slow and not bright and would reflect that in stats that might let them self heal.
 
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saekee

long live ROGUE
Maybe they could solve two issues at the same time by making some of the useless combat feats like Sap have extra affects when wielding a specific type of weapon. So far example if you using a club and use Sap it acts as a stun instead of a daze or if using a Sickle than Slicing Blow has +2 crit multi (kind of an homage to a scythe).
/signed very imaginative suggestion. Nimble fingers adding .25W to light weapon dps, Sap makes clubs stun, Slicing Blow double effective on slashing weapons, Improved feint better with a rapier, etc. I am too cynical to believe this could happen though.
With Light weapons equipped auto add some melee alacrity since they are smaller, lighter, easy to swing around. There we go!
/signed

Another option is to consider weapon mixing and specific instances. Sword and board, TWF etc are all very generic. I would like to see:
1) If TWF with identical weapons in both hands, offhand gets another +10% ds and hit percent. Or something like that, as weapons are balanced in weight and more sensible to pair up.
2) if TWF with rapier or longsword and a dagger in offhand, gain stacking parrying +6 and main hand doublestrike 6%. Or something like this (Main gauche style)
3) If tower shield and short sword, gain boost to doublestrike, shield bash etc or something that imitates Roman Legionaire. (yeah I know, a lot of short swords in game have a big hook on one side that would latch clumsily onto the shield, unlike a gladius.) Some such boost, plays into vanguard tree perhaps too
4) Shield wall boost—players next to each other with medium+ shields have some stacking AC/deflection/DR bonus, especially when actively blocking. Type as an aura.
5) Club attacks from stealth auto-sap. This might make them a swap of choice for assassins soloing tough content.
6) Great Clubs gain knockdown on vorpal like great crossbows. Why do we not have this already?
7) dual-wielding hatchets needs something special, not sure what
8) kamas, sickles, and kukris auto-tendon slice when attacking from stealth, or maybe just on crit from stealth. I think it would be fun, it is a sound in-game more sadistic than the level-drain woo woo.

Some weapons are junk historically, although I am aware this is a fantasy game. A qstaff is not that great. A sickle or kama? Farm gear, yeah latter adapted by ninjas but still…A club is inferior to a well-made steel weapon. But let’s celebrate their possible uses.
 

Br4d

Well-known member
It's a fantasy game. Suspension of disbelief is rampant in D&D.

D&D and DDO are not the same rules set. In D&D Halflings and other small races take a big penalty when wielding heavy weapons, require a certain strength even to be able to do so and cannot wield heavy two-handed weapons at all.

Also the DDO attributes are out of control compared to D&D. Attributes in the low hundreds are not attainable under the standard D&D rule sets.

My point on all of the above, both posts plus this one, is that the weapons usefulness debate has been completely swept aside by the fact that some weapons are just better than others and when you let everybody use them you make 90% of the weapons useless.
 

Col Kurtz

Well-known member
/signed very imaginative suggestion. Nimble fingers adding .25W to light weapon dps, Sap makes clubs stun, Slicing Blow double effective on slashing weapons, Improved feint better with a rapier, etc. I am too cynical to believe this could happen though.

/signed

Another option is to consider weapon mixing and specific instances. Sword and board, TWF etc are all very generic. I would like to see:
1) If TWF with identical weapons in both hands, offhand gets another +10% ds and hit percent. Or something like that, as weapons are balanced in weight and more sensible to pair up.
2) if TWF with rapier or longsword and a dagger in offhand, gain stacking parrying +6 and main hand doublestrike 6%. Or something like this (Main gauche style)
3) If tower shield and short sword, gain boost to doublestrike, shield bash etc or something that imitates Roman Legionaire. (yeah I know, a lot of short swords in game have a big hook on one side that would latch clumsily onto the shield, unlike a gladius.) Some such boost, plays into vanguard tree perhaps too
4) Shield wall boost—players next to each other with medium+ shields have some stacking AC/deflection/DR bonus, especially when actively blocking. Type as an aura.
5) Club attacks from stealth auto-sap. This might make them a swap of choice for assassins soloing tough content.
6) Great Clubs gain knockdown on vorpal like great crossbows. Why do we not have this already?
7) dual-wielding hatchets needs something special, not sure what
8) kamas, sickles, and kukris auto-tendon slice when attacking from stealth, or maybe just on crit from stealth. I think it would be fun, it is a sound in-game more sadistic than the level-drain woo woo.

Some weapons are junk historically, although I am aware this is a fantasy game. A qstaff is not that great. A sickle or kama? Farm gear, yeah latter adapted by ninjas but still…A club is inferior to a well-made steel weapon. But let’s celebrate their possible uses.
you could do some of these ideas as class enhancement type trees

...Duelist class has class enhancements like you suggest if I remember right with a Dagger as 2ndary weapon. Offhand blocking a specific number of attacks per melee round(additionals based on character lvl)
attack chance bonus for dual weilding
and they got a cool hat with a feather in it for free
 

Monkey_Archer

Well-known member
Might's Training feat: (replace cringy name with something better)

-Great axes, Dwarvern Axes and Mauls get +1 critical multiplier
-Great swords and Bastard swords get +1 critical threat range (doubled with IC)
-Great clubs get +2 critical threat range (doubled with IC)
 

Br4d

Well-known member
Some weapons are junk historically, although I am aware this is a fantasy game. A qstaff is not that great. A sickle or kama? Farm gear, yeah latter adapted by ninjas but still…A club is inferior to a well-made steel weapon. But let’s celebrate their possible uses.

Kamas specifically were adapted as weapons because peasants in feudal Japan were prohibited from carrying weapons and the penalty for being caught with one was an immediate execution by the Samurai or other official who caught you.

Kamas were field tools used in various planting and harvesting operations. They also functioned fairly well as a self-defense weapon and so they were a "weapon" of choice for the peasant class and legal to carry as well.
 

saekee

long live ROGUE
Might's Training feat: (replace cringy name with something better)

-Great axes, Dwarvern Axes and Mauls get +1 critical multiplier
-Great swords and Bastard swords get +1 critical threat range (doubled with IC)
-Great clubs get +2 critical threat range (doubled with IC)
considering that they bungled Swords to Plowshares and should have named it the other way around, any name is now fine

(and yes, we did tell them repeatedly here that they mixed up the order)

Currently we have as feats like this:
1) Swords to Plowshares
2) Knight’s Training

So your idea is a fair one, and the name is on the right track
I would do separate feats. For Greatswords and bastard swords:
Coustilliere’s training

Greatclubs and Mauls
?

Greate axes and Dwarven axes
?
 
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Darksteel

Well-known member
Why stop there? Might as well ask for marilith as a playable race.
I did ask Steel in 2019. He said they have to basically re-write the engine. Even a half-marilith with 4 khopeshes is not possible with the current engine.
 

Contessor

Well-known member
DDO has 37 weapon types and yet only half a dozen are utilized by players.
There are too many weapons in the game that are comparatively inferior if not worthless.

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Even with Update 61 that now gives a bump to kukri along with daggers in the Vistani tree.
There are effectively a lot of worthless weapons in the game..
Things like darts, handaxes, hammers, picks, maul, clubs, morningstar, etc.....
Generic boosts to weapon grouping like 'light' weapons would be of more overall game benefit that just selectively making specific weapons like 'dagger' have the enhancement tree boosts making all the other weapons pointless like handaxe, hammer, mace....

Pointless distinctions between light and heavy weapons light/heavy crossbow..
the 1d6/1d8 distinction favors heavy crossbow in every scenario making light crossbows comparatively inferior.
just dump the light/heavy distinction and have them be... crossbow, repeating crossbow and great crossbow.


I would like to see perks defined by weapon grouping instead of specific weapons being buffed and others effectively being neutered by neglect.
light weapons, one handed weapons, two handed weapons, ranged, throwing...
This way it doesn't matter if a player swaps between weapons like light maces or a dagger, the profile and boosts give the same effective weapon damage.
Instead of Vistani doubling damage for dagger's and kukri's while making every other light weapon pointless.

Without making all these weapons comparable and interchangeable over half of the weapons in DDO are effectively pointless and a waste of effort to even have in the game.
Honestly most weapon are relevant on specific builds. Maces (Morningstar) are good on scourge and Amaunator Builds. Mauls on Sylvanus builds. Darts on Alchemist. Handaxe might have the best dmg profile for non-Vistani SWF builds, especially a bard. Khopesh used to be king for non-2H, although elevating other weapons and the lack of good end game named weapons, khopesh is no longer worth a feat, but still good.

Of all the available weapons for physical DPS that really aren’t worth using (AFAI) are clubs (but these are caster sticks) rapiers (since dagger and kukri are so much better now), great club, light/war hammers, light maces (again primarily a caster weapon) and sickles (again primarily a caster weapon). Everything else has a place.
 

Speed

Well-known member
DDO has 37 weapon types and yet only half a dozen are utilized by players.
There are too many weapons in the game that are comparatively inferior if not worthless.

image.png






Even with Update 61 that now gives a bump to kukri along with daggers in the Vistani tree.
There are effectively a lot of worthless weapons in the game..
Things like darts, handaxes, hammers, picks, maul, clubs, morningstar, etc.....
Generic boosts to weapon grouping like 'light' weapons would be of more overall game benefit that just selectively making specific weapons like 'dagger' have the enhancement tree boosts making all the other weapons pointless like handaxe, hammer, mace....

Pointless distinctions between light and heavy weapons light/heavy crossbow..
the 1d6/1d8 distinction favors heavy crossbow in every scenario making light crossbows comparatively inferior.
just dump the light/heavy distinction and have them be... crossbow, repeating crossbow and great crossbow.


I would like to see perks defined by weapon grouping instead of specific weapons being buffed and others effectively being neutered by neglect.
light weapons, one handed weapons, two handed weapons, ranged, throwing...
This way it doesn't matter if a player swaps between weapons like light maces or a dagger, the profile and boosts give the same effective weapon damage.
Instead of Vistani doubling damage for dagger's and kukri's while making every other light weapon pointless.

Without making all these weapons comparable and interchangeable over half of the weapons in DDO are effectively pointless and a waste of effort to even have in the game.

First thing is rpg, lore and visual part, not only slight difference in base damage while effects have usually more noticeable impact and they vary on named or generated items.
+1 potential (not fixed) base damage if you get lucky with random roll dice of 1d8 vs 1d6, WOW!
This little percent of total damage from effects/tree/stat should sound like serious game changer that could be worth sacrificing feat (and rpg/lore/visual for some) instead of using it for something with more impact and not slowing down progress with other feats, and all of this especially when tree is not made for that exact weapon (when bonuses are general or exclusive to buff weaker options).
Do most players remember to add extra +1 fixed damage from eldritch ritual or it was not so must have?
19-20 x2 vs 20 x3 is the same at base (including improved critical), but final winner might be different depending on other parameters.
Wider range benefits more when only multiplier is increased, can be better for on critical effects (like extra sp on wolf druid, but there are more examples in other trees) and when someone prefer to see higher numbers more often for more stable damage than much higher on more random occasion that might be wasted on already low hp.
Higher multiplier benefits more when only range is increased by fixed amount instead of doubled base range (like improved critical) and also losses less in case of damage reduction (10 damage x2 loses all on 20 damage reduction twice, 10 x3 still hits for 10 once).
My friend was surprised that there are no flails, spears and javelins!
According to lore, some weaker weapons are buffed in trees for matching classes, so they are more useful than for others.

Second thing is that all classes have access to most simple weapons, few to all martial, and exotic is more individual.
Using starter proficiencies can save feat for classes without bonus slots, so thats value for slightly weaker weapons.
Light weapons have better accuracy in two weapon fighting (what maybe is not a case for characters with collected best gear and tr passive bonuses that results in very high accuracy, but can make difference for new players with first lifer) and get bonuses in some trees, including using dexterity instead of strength.
Bludgeoning is best for skeletons (they appear few times more than zombies and can be more powerful with magic or as boss) and slimes (they do not split).
Slashing is best for variety as group, so improved critical affects many weapon choices in martial/exotic, including ones that benefit from 2 handed fighting.
For piercing see light weapons.
Some weapons are more usable in multiclass synergy combinations, specific specialized concept, different stat for attack/damage, or limited favored/ki weapon.

Dagger - free for most classes, favored light weapon for 2 weapon fighting, bonuses in some trees
Kukri - improved critical range, slashing instead of piercing, bonuses in some trees
Shortsword - ki light weapon for 2 weapon fighting, possibly better reach (hitbox), bonuses in some trees
Darts - only free ranged option for druid in human/elemental form, bonuses in some trees
Handaxe - light weapon for 2 weapon fighting with axes in kensei/dwarf tree
Light Hammer - light weapon for 2 weapon fighting with hammers in artificer/kensei/dwarf tree, bludgeoning
Warhammer - free martial for artificer with bonuses, favored bludgeoning weapon, 18-20 x3 with knights training feat, kensei/dwarf tree
Maul - best 2 handed bludgeoning, favored weapon, kensei/dwarf tree
Light Mace - free for most classes, bludgeoning light weapon for 2 weapon fighting, bonuses in some trees
Heavy Mace - free for most classes, favored weapon, 18-20 x2 with knights training feat, bonuses in some trees
Morningstar - free for most classes, 18-20 x2 with knights training feat, bonuses in some trees
Club - scepter for casters
Light Crossbow - swashbuckling with inquisitive, repeater version for rogue is available earlier (level 6 vs 12)
Shortbow - free for rogue/bard
Throwing Hammer - only ranged bludgeoning, ranged option for hammer kensei/dwarf
Throwing Axe - 20 x3 if returning, best throwing if no not using related feats/trees, ranged option for axe kensei/dwarf
 
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twilight

Member
Pointless distinctions between light and heavy weapons light/heavy crossbow..
the 1d6/1d8 distinction favors heavy crossbow in every scenario making light crossbows comparatively inferior.
just dump the light/heavy distinction and have them be... crossbow, repeating crossbow and great crossbow.
Lots of other people have touched on other weapons you commented on but I didn't see anyone address your crossbow statement. In almost all cases, the light crossbow will do more damage over time than the heavy crossbow - it fires faster by slightly over 10% so, as long as you are doing at least 10 points of damage, the light crossbow does more dps.
 

drjoans

kinda-known member
I honestly love picks! I have made the comment to people that their should be a 'pick of destiny' that comes from a quest with a nod to tenacious D. Like how the quest in the Vale are a nod to great rock songs/bands. Just imagine all the demons that are get stunned and whip crack there wippy tails and are just done.
 

Svirfneblin

Well-known member
I still want a Regenerating troll for great clubs and a minotaur race so I can dual wield great axes, or a Thrikeen with the quad wielding 4 arms hehe
That is exactly what I want too. Especially the Troll swinging great club and can regenerate. Build more regeneration into the racial tree. THF and Stunning Blow bonuses. And a cool Intimidate move so we can Troll people.

Make me auto run away from pitchforks and torches!!!
 

Corvin

Member
Lots of other people have touched on other weapons you commented on but I didn't see anyone address your crossbow statement. In almost all cases, the light crossbow will do more damage over time than the heavy crossbow - it fires faster by slightly over 10% so, as long as you are doing at least 10 points of damage, the light crossbow does more dps.
I didn't realize there was a difference in the firing speed! I went with light crossbows on my last rogue life because they're supported by the Gnome racial tree.
 

TedSandyman

Well-known member
There is a LOT in this game that never gets used. And it would be way easier for new players if there weren't so many worthless dead ends. But the problem is, sometimes it is hard to know when something is a dead end or is very useful if used in conjunction with something else.

Weapons for sure are an issue, but this is true of feats and other abilities. I almost guarantee you, if the decided to take out any single item, someone uses it, and will complain. A few years back I started a halfling barbarian that used a maul. Because I thought it would be funny. Back then the maul was one of the most useless weapons in the game. But now, there are several maul builds out there.

You just never know what items may be useful in ways that you don't think about. So something that looks completely useless to one player might be completely useless, but used by another player, or the thing might be useful, but not great, when combined with something else, or it might turn out to be something awesome.

The complexity and useless items are very much a problem in this game. But strangely, it is also one of its strengths. The ability to wade through this very confusing system of items and abilities and come out on the other end with something that is at least workable and possibly awesome is part of the fun.
 
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