What in the hot mess did you do to stealth?

Konsumer

Konsumer

Well-known member
I went into Gateway to Khyber on HN with my high stealth capped rogue. I cast inviso and ran through the open areas, then stealthed past the mobs. Somehow, 1 troll detected me in the first batch. By the time I got to the 4 boss trolls it was a red alert and every monster in the dungeon was right behind me. Every one of them detected me despite stealth or invis. ON NORMAL!

***?!
Please, for the love of D&D STOP with the rogue hate. Stealth rogues and stealth in general are core parts of Dungeons and Dragons. Act like it. Stop trying to shove them into your melee box. Stop passing around their abilities to other classes like party favors. Stop overlooking them on purpose in your updates. Stop trying to hamper their remaining ability of stealth with locked rooms that won't open till everything is dead or red alerts because 1 single CR 12 monster miraculously detected a 140 H/MS.

Man.... I've been playing rogues for 17 years and frankly, I'm just sick of how they are treated in this game and how they've always been treated.
 
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Elminster

Elminster

Sage of Shadowdale
Stealth rogues would be the only build around if they made it viable in most quests.

In a perfect world, I would like to see the ability to do ALL quests without any mob deaths but that’s not happening in DDO. It’ll make quests too easy…

Unless, they made stealthing so ridiculously slow that there wouldn’t be any incentive to do it for speed running…. And also require a ton of gear to pull it off.
 
Konsumer

Konsumer

Well-known member
The Nameless One said:
Stealth rogues would be the only build around if they made it viable in most quests.

In a perfect world, I would like to see the ability to do ALL quests without any mob deaths but that’s not happening in DDO. It’ll make quests too easy…

Unless, they made stealthing so ridiculously slow that there wouldn’t be any incentive to do it for speed running…. And also require a ton of gear to pull it off.
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Stealthing is already far slower than just barrelling through. It's a playstyle preference, not an exploit. Especially when soloing.
And, I'm not talking about throwing on an invis and running to the end. H/MS skills aren't even comparable. With a 140 H/MS on a capped full rogue I should be able to stand next to any HN monster, take pictures with my hand in its pocket, and move on without being detected at all.
What they've done now is lunacy. It wasn't broke. Why did it need a fix like this now?

Slippery slope arguments have no legitimacy.
 
Elminster

Elminster

Sage of Shadowdale
Konsumer said:
Stealthing is already far slower than just barrelling through. It's a playstyle preference, not an exploit. Especially when soloing.
And, I'm not talking about throwing on an invis and running to the end. H/MS skills aren't even comparable. With a 140 H/MS on a capped full rogue I should be able to stand next to any HN monster, take pictures with my hand in its pocket, and move on without being detected at all.
What they've done now is lunacy. It wasn't broke. Why did it need a fix like this now?

Slippery slope arguments have no legitimacy.
Click to expand...
Agreeing with you stealthists.

I would love to see stealth get extremely BUFFED. Like to the max. I want all levers and buttons or whatever that requires you kill a red named beforehand to have a condition that if the red named doesn’t get aggro‘ed at all that the lever is useable. Would also like to see simple actions like opening chests and pulling levers not to pull you out of hiding.
 
rabidfox

rabidfox

The People's Champion
Konsumer said:
What they've done now is lunacy. It wasn't broke. Why did it need a fix like this now?
Click to expand...
Just for context, there was a wicked bug out there that potentially effected people across all gameplay:
Torc said:
We believe that blind monsters in OTHER dungeons can throttle the path system on the whole server box and cause problems in other people's quests who are not using those effects at all.
Click to expand...
I've been submitting a bunch of bug reports lately about things that effect core aspects of the game's perfomance, including this one. I won't go into details about the bug (Torc or another dev can if they want to), but I can say what I bug reported was fixed by these changes. While the current state of stealth needs shoring up to get back to where players like it, the fix had a good reason.
 
5

5 Other People

all the voices in my head are my own
I get this frustration and folks should continue to talk about it in order to inform developers.

however, I'll also advise that folks accept that DDO has fully adopted an agile development style. In this style we are unlikely to get an ideal product on initial release, b/c they changing code with the intent that user feedback will inform them of the short comings and where they should prioritize their work.

As a consumer, I've adopted an on/off playstyle. I'll take long breaks while certain features get ironed out and come back only when forum consensus is things are fun. Presently I'm waiting for these things to get fully engaged: rares, mega-server, & now stealth (b/c solo rouge is my all time favorite build). I did roll a monk recently, just to see and was left with the impression that many others are also taking a break.

Anyway, ya'll keep the forums going and keep the feedback coming, I hope to get back into DDO this fall with any luck!
 
Cmecu

Cmecu

Well-known member
Konsumer said:
I went into Gateway to Khyber on HN with my high stealth capped rogue. I cast inviso and ran through the open areas, then stealthed past the mobs. Somehow, 1 troll detected me in the first batch. By the time I got to the 4 boss trolls it was a red alert and every monster in the dungeon was right behind me. Every one of them detected me despite stealth or invis. ON NORMAL!

***?!
Please, for the love of D&D STOP with the rogue hate. Stealth rogues and stealth in general are core parts of Dungeons and Dragons. Act like it. Stop trying to shove them into your melee box. Stop passing around their abilities to other classes like party favors. Stop overlooking them on purpose in your updates. Stop trying to hamper their remaining ability of stealth with locked rooms that won't open till everything is dead or red alerts because 1 single CR 12 monster miraculously detected a 140 H/MS.

Man.... I've been playing rogues for 17 years and frankly, I'm just sick of how they are treated in this game and how they've always been treated.
Click to expand...

Maybe it was an Anti Stealth Troll :D JK.. I get what your saying.. its a skill that should allow you to get by everything.
I remember when I played Everquest, I was a rogue, and when we stealth we could get my most things to do corpse runs for people.. but it never fails there is something some where that can see through stealth.... SIGH....
 
Zavina

Zavina

Ms Stabby Stabby
Konsumer said:
I went into Gateway to Khyber on HN with my high stealth capped rogue. I cast inviso and ran through the open areas, then stealthed past the mobs. Somehow, 1 troll detected me in the first batch. By the time I got to the 4 boss trolls it was a red alert and every monster in the dungeon was right behind me. Every one of them detected me despite stealth or invis. ON NORMAL!
Click to expand...

Invisibility does not grant inaudibility. They are alerted by the noise you make, which you said, "you ran through the open areas".

And true rogues who stealth don't need invisibility (and i've been playing assassins since the beginning too :) ); but that's just a personal opinion.
 
Konsumer

Konsumer

Well-known member
The Nameless One said:
Agreeing with you stealthists.

I would love to see stealth get extremely BUFFED. Like to the max. I want all levers and buttons or whatever that requires you kill a red named beforehand to have a condition that if the red named doesn’t get aggro‘ed at all that the lever is useable. Would also like to see simple actions like opening chests and pulling levers not to pull you out of hiding.
Click to expand...
That would be a pleasant change of pace for rogues/stealth certainly.
 
L

LurkingVeteran

Well-known member
rabidfox said:
Just for context, there was a wicked bug out there that potentially effected people across all gameplay:

I've been submitting a bunch of bug reports lately about things that effect core aspects of the game's perfomance, including this one. I won't go into details about the bug (Torc or another dev can if they want to), but I can say what I bug reported was fixed by these changes. While the current state of stealth needs shoring up to get back to where players like it, the fix had a good reason.
Click to expand...
They actually claimed the fix would not affect stealth play, so hopefully they fix it.

That said, I'm not holding my breath as some of these issues were reported by players already in the lama thread. They should have put it on hold and figured out a better solution then already. Blindness isn't exactly a new condition. Whatever the cause of the problem, nerfing stealth wasn't the solution.

I don't even understand why they are so afraid of incidentally buffing stealth, people zerg through dungeons anyway. It's fine if there are some parts where you have to fight your way through, but suddenly aggroing half the dungeon is both immersion breaking and simply bad gameplay. Being seen once shouldn't be a fail condition. Put some kind of cap on the aggro linking and duration already. It's not good for their pathing budget either, it's just making life difficult for everyone.

While they are at it, remove all the 50 shades of dungeon alert as well. I suspect, if they tested this they would find that it's actually cheaper on the server budget and everyone is happier.
 
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Br4d

Br4d

Well-known member
Just take it back to the way it was before invisi-running became a thing.

When a stealther gets detected add a global spot and damage bump to all mobs in the instance unless the spot is resolved very quickly.

No pathing mobs looking for a rogue. No overrun on processing that effects other instances.

Do the smart thing instead of looking for ways to stop people from exploiting the slowest path to XP in the game.

For invisi-running, just make invisibility give two qualities above what it does now:

1. Silence (perfect).

2. Slow invisible characters to walking pace.

DDO is not a stealth game but if you neuter stealth as badly as it has been neutered to date you probably lose 90% of the stealth players in the process.
 
Br4d

Br4d

Well-known member
LurkingVeteran said:
They actually claimed the fix would not affect stealth play, so hopefully they fix it.

That said, I'm not holding my breath as some of these issues were reported by players already in the lama thread. They should have put it on hold and figured out a better solution then already. Blindness isn't exactly a new condition. Whatever the cause of the problem, nerfing stealth wasn't the solution.

I don't even understand why they are so afraid of incidentally buffing stealth, people zerg through dungeons anyway. It's fine if there are some parts where you have to fight your way through, but suddenly aggroing half the dungeon is both immersion breaking and simply bad gameplay. Being seen once shouldn't be a fail condition. Put some kind of cap on the aggro linking and duration already. It's not good for their pathing budget either, it's just making life difficult for everyone.
Click to expand...

The other thing of course is that I am already wondering who will be the first to put (bad) stealth on a build just so they can AoE the entire dungeon in one pack.

Seriously.
 
Nickodeamous

Nickodeamous

Well-known member
So, i was running grand theft aureon last night on r10. Hopping across the chandeliers and getting dotted to death by a fear reaper down below is something I have never had to deal with. Normally you hop through and don't have to deal with trash below. This to me takes away from that entire quest experience in general. I'm guessing this is a direct result of the changes?
 
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