What in the hot mess did you do to stealth?
- Thread starter Konsumer
- Start date
Blunt Hackett
Well-known member
Reaper has done a lot for the game. It cured a serious lack of grouping and it offered more game progression.
But it isn't a D&D thing. Stealth rogues on the other hand are very much a D&D thing. They should be viable no matter the difficulty, and the only time another class should have that is if it's another stealth class or they multiclass. Reaper should never have been more important than core class mechanics.
But it isn't a D&D thing. Stealth rogues on the other hand are very much a D&D thing. They should be viable no matter the difficulty, and the only time another class should have that is if it's another stealth class or they multiclass. Reaper should never have been more important than core class mechanics.
Redtalktree
Well-known member
But that Great for any AOE Murderous psychopathic dungeon crawlers out there (I mean all you AOE playas), just round them up and lit them up
rabidfox
The People's Champion
Z-axis stuff has been an issue in there since that quest came out. I've been hit with fear dots like you while up above. Or suddenly a reaper teleports up to me causing an alert. 'No Refunds' is also really bad with this; sometimes jumping while on the ground floor can trigger/agro multiple groups of mobs on the 2nd floor and instantly spike a red alert. Someday SSG should redo Z-axis dectection stuff; but that could also go very sideways...
That would just be an end around hide and move silent and still be faster move speed that base sneak.
The invis-run should be a noisy event and that is what gets them caught. A character in sneak uses hide and move silent skills. I think we are better when the two things are different.
Sneaking characters have not been the problem in the past, it has been invis-zerg. The nerfs to stealth are mis-placed.
Konsumer
Well-known member
Not everything everywhere. Everything in a heroic normal jungle of kyber with a level 34 stealth specialist while invisible.Maybe it was an Anti Stealth TrollJK.. I get what your saying.. its a skill that should allow you to get by everything.
I remember when I played Everquest, I was a rogue, and when we stealth we could get my most things to do corpse runs for people.. but it never fails there is something some where that can see through stealth.... SIGH....
Casual?
saekee
long live ROGUE
I have been playing stealth since 2010 or so and have observed the various attempts of the devs to come to terms with the playstyle. Some devs seemed to really respect it (like the designer of SDK tree, or Quid Pro Quo, even Horde of the Illithid Controller) whereas others seemed to have pushed in the opposite direction (reaper autodetect for example which then arises in every quest despite dev design/intention).
Honestly if a stealthy player is detected, they become rather obvious to sight—there are in truth not many places to hide. There should be some other mechanic at work though when one puts major physical obstacles between them and mobs, and that appears broken right now. Anyway I agree with the OP.
Nevertheless, the key is not to be detected. If you can do it, the devs still do not have an answer for it. There are not a lot of quests remaining that are easier to stealth then zerg, but a small few come to mind like those mentioned above. Typically you need the ability to stealth and have burst dps; long gone are the days of pure sneak. Alas!
Honestly if a stealthy player is detected, they become rather obvious to sight—there are in truth not many places to hide. There should be some other mechanic at work though when one puts major physical obstacles between them and mobs, and that appears broken right now. Anyway I agree with the OP.
Nevertheless, the key is not to be detected. If you can do it, the devs still do not have an answer for it. There are not a lot of quests remaining that are easier to stealth then zerg, but a small few come to mind like those mentioned above. Typically you need the ability to stealth and have burst dps; long gone are the days of pure sneak. Alas!
Tyran Thraxus
Mindless One
Being a stealth player is a HUGE commitment; we don't do it to "get past mobs and break the game". It's much more difficult than AOE-zerging. Therefore, we should be rewarded for the extra time, strategy, and anxiety it takes to stealth-play.
Besides, Why does it matter if we don't engage the mobs? Why do the devs care so much about HOW we play the quest? Get the objective, get the XP. Let us play how we like, so please remove the "murder everything" requirement.
I DO agree that Invis should be walking speed(i.e. 30% slower), and/or at least lower the "Move Silently" skill to zero.
Instant dungeon alerts don't improve lag either; it clearly increases lag by the simple fact that everything is trying to kill you at the same time. So I don't believe that excuse. In fact, stealth play should lessen lag, as we are not engaging any mobs. :unsure:
I really miss my stealth ninja.
Besides, Why does it matter if we don't engage the mobs? Why do the devs care so much about HOW we play the quest? Get the objective, get the XP. Let us play how we like, so please remove the "murder everything" requirement.
I DO agree that Invis should be walking speed(i.e. 30% slower), and/or at least lower the "Move Silently" skill to zero.
Instant dungeon alerts don't improve lag either; it clearly increases lag by the simple fact that everything is trying to kill you at the same time. So I don't believe that excuse. In fact, stealth play should lessen lag, as we are not engaging any mobs. :unsure:
I really miss my stealth ninja.
LurkingVeteran
Well-known member
I don't agree that invis should be walk speed. Invis is one of the few defensive spells that actually do anything at all in 2025 and pretty much the only active (fun) ability. I don't think Invis is a problem either, but it's fine if it works more like now (especially if not paired with move silently).
Ying
5000+ hours played
What exactly is difficult about stealthing that makes it much more difficult than AoE zerging? I've used stealth or invis in many quests to bypass mobs I don't need to fight when soloing, especially on R10. There's little investment in it beyond casting an invis scroll, or some ranks in hide/move silently. And while stealth play is cool and should be supported, you still need to have a non-gimp build to kill monsters.Being a stealth player is a HUGE commitment; we don't do it to "get past mobs and break the game". It's much more difficult than AOE-zerging. Therefore, we should be rewarded for the extra time, strategy, and anxiety it takes to stealth-play.
Br4d
Well-known member
What's difficult about stealthing (not Invis) is that the builds that tend to have it are relatively low power compared to the meta. VKF makes up some of the difference but we're still handicapped by not having huge AoE's to instantly clean up messes. I'm not asking for those AoE's BTW. When I want to play a stealth play style I really want to avoid most fights if possible because killing mobs 2 or 3 at a time is both time-consuming and boring. It's carpal tunnel inducing.
It's a fun play style that is non-exploitative and provides deep immersion in the game. It makes DDO more of a game and less of a grind.
Nokowi
Well-known member
That's phase#3 of destroying stealth - reducing the need for player skill instead of having interesting opposition. What you may never understand is that a stealth player wants opposition unlike the AoE zerger. Making it low skill is just another stomp in the face by developers. I doubt an AoE zerger can even understand the concept - stealth is simply a tool that will only be considered for that one purpose of zerging. The two playstyles couln't be any more different. One has interesting play choices and consequences (stealth) and one does not (AoE zerg). The AoE zerger likes spreadsheets and build choices the stealth player wants competitive in-play choices.
They didn't put in the effort to challenge stealth with functional opposition even though the pieces largely existed pre-reaper. This could have been a low effort process. They decided they like spaghetti and made a tangled mess of stealth. It's almost as if they like spaghetti code and the work it creates. I wish them luck in dealing with their own design choices - their effort is appreciated but it does not seem like a good choice to create more work for themselves while not meeting player preferences.
Last edited:
Ying
5000+ hours played
Knowledge > skill for bypassing mobs in a quest. Which gen1 reapers can you stealth by? Gen2? It's rhetorical. When you know, it's easy to leverage stealth techniques.
I don't know what you mean by "a stealth player wants opposition".
rabidfox
The People's Champion
I hate to break it to you, but I know stealth players that use spreedsheets and build choices to maximize their output. They're not a mutually exclusive thing. And anyone can stealth with some investment in hide/move silently/using invis scrolls. Once someone is stealthed, what they do with that is up to the person behind the keyboard.
Phoenicis
Savage's Husband
Invis is NOT stealth. ANY true seeing or listen will break invis.
MS/Hide is stealth, and staying out of mobs LoS.
Disclaimer: I blow at stealthing missions, If she has a stealth capable toon my wife loves stealthy reposession(sp?) I park at the front and wait for her to finish.
saekee
long live ROGUE
hey Ying, sure a few quests here and there, I can see little investment. Overall, though, for a dedicated player, the following is typical:
1) max ranks in HS and MS while levelling. Those are two skill points that could have been spent elsewhere
2) usually AP spent on Faster sneaking that is also an opportunity cost
3) gear, gear and more Batman gear. LGS dex skills and throw in an exceptional skill item like Ethereal gaze, or do a swap like Boots of Fleet and Fortune with two skill augments for HS/MS. Camouflage clickie because it stacks, mass invisi stack since it lasts a long time. Even shadow walk scrolls, noisemakers, sacrificial summons, etc. Sooo inventory clutter. Even weapons—Maw with Salt on an isolated mob, for example, is very handy.
4) Dex—most dedicated stealth toons are dex based to max skills; this limits things to the horizon trance in terms of dps. Throwers are bugged too if you are a shuri build and jump while stealthed, it glitches you to slow movement.
5) Bluff. Sometimes a no-fail bluff helps remove reapers in the path of a completion. This also requires decent charisma, max bluff skills and swap gear. Then you need to be able to drop fast and effectively the bluffed mob (to your point: dps needed, or some good choices in gear, destiny, etc).
6) Destiny and tree choices—SD has faster sneaking and floating but it is not necessary. Adrenaline insta-helpless hits over quickcutter are better for pulled isolated mobs.
7) Class limitations and splashes—that rogue assassins are a top choice is not a limiting factor but being able to use noisemakers, open locked doors etc makes a big difference.
8) Burst dps and defenses—quest design often requires some boss beatdown, but now always. Under the Cover of Darkness—one can loot the end chest but cannot complete until killing the boss in his small room; I can easily get to the end fight of Good Intentions without a scratch, but then…Then there are magnificient stealth quests like Blockade Buster—I snuck it recently with a ninja on R10. (We had to drop some mobs on the deck of the third ship due to zero kills after first two went down).
Finally there is the fun factor of attempting a unique challenge. I encourage you to visit ROGUE QUATRE that I designed a few years ago at least on the old forums.
Nokowi
Well-known member
Based on your response you don't or can't understand the issues. A stealth player using a spreadsheet does not invalidate their desire for interesting play choices nor does a zerg player using stealth mean that someone else can't prefer an actual stealth playstyle. Your line of thought does not invalidate mine. My line of thought is simply something difficult for you to fathom and so you feel the need to find a reason to negate my line of thought.
Consider listening.
Yes, some people will even enjoy both playstyles from time to time and an AoE zerger will inevitably also have some play choices. You can make categories and people will always fall in different places with respect to those categories.
saekee
long live ROGUE
there are so many innuendos here for a healthy marriage