Phoenicis
Savage's Husband
And I missed every one of them while writing that line. Thanks for bringing them to my attention ;P
What in the hot mess did you do to stealth?
- Thread starter Konsumer
- Start date
saekee
long live ROGUE
I recommend to all players to do a stealth life from 1 to cap. You will learn a lot about the game that has remained hidden: mobs that do not activate until you get near (like earth elementals or many inactive constructs—looking at you, Oghma); attacks and actions that do not break stealth and invisibility; strange/relevant mob pathing and behavior, like in Framework, Claw of Vulkoor or the oft-cited Stealthy Repossession; the frustration of reapers plopped in the midst of quest design; how the strongest reapers do NOT autodetect, making for some interesting options; and so on. Some quests are uber stealth friendly by design, and others are unexpectedly so (like House of Rusted blades, where I have never seen a reaper).
Tyran Thraxus
Mindless One
I understand, but you're missing the point; the huge investment in true stealth IS the point of stealth play. It leads to a massive dopamine surge when done successfully, knowing it takes much longer, and causes higher anxiety. It's the challenge that we crave, not the XP/min. That's the difficulty, building for stealth, not for meta. This is why I still play Ninja Bow Rogue/Monk. (I never get invited to raids:ROFLMAO
rabidfox
The People's Champion
My hot take is that high end stealthers and zergers are the same side of the dopamine coin (with effort spent to build & gear for their sense of fun), while folks that just relaxingly play the game are the other side. =) I suspect the average player isn't stealthing nor zerging very much. But hopefully SSG gets things re-adjusted over the next couple updates so your dopamine rush is resumed for quality stealth play.
Nokowi
Well-known member
That's about as far off as you could be in reality. Some key differences:
Stealth playstyle
- okay with longer run time
- a quest is not evaluated as good or bad by it's XP/min
- dopamine comes from risk vs reward (play choices are important)
Aoe Zerger
- it's about minimum run time
- a quest is good or bad based on Xp/min
- dopamine comes from big numbers and crushing content without respect to wanting a penalty for making mistakes
- build choice is very important
- having play choice is less important
Ying
5000+ hours played
Thinking there's no penalty for making mistakes by players who want to brute force their way through a quest is pretty laughable. Your fun is wrong: That's what your argument sounds like to me. You talk about zergers min/maxing, but that's no different than what ne'er-do-wells slinking in the shadows have to do to play the way they want to where build choice is very important. Play however you like, and play with the people that support your playstyle. There's room for every playstyle in DDO. I've enjoyed doing both, and have posted builds for both.
The same dopamine rush exists for melee players charging into a pack of R10 mobs, landing critical crowd control or using cooldowns to survive the onslaught. Like Rabidfox said, it's just a different side of the dopamine coin.I understand, but you're missing the point; the huge investment in true stealth IS the point of stealth play. It leads to a massive dopamine surge when done successfully, knowing it takes much longer, and causes higher anxiety. It's the challenge that we crave, not the XP/min. That's the difficulty, building for stealth, not for meta. This is why I still play Ninja Bow Rogue/Monk. (I never get invited to raids:ROFLMAO
If you don't raid, it's because you don't want to. LFMs are up all the time, and most leaders will take the first warm body that applies. Don't blame your build or playstyle for not raiding.
Konsumer
Well-known member
That is the whole point of this post. Based on history and current trends, that there isn't room made for every playstyle.
I would love to see a stealth branch of playstyle being used within EXTREME MV Permadeath, it would be very interesting to see how far they could get in our very challenging enviroment. I hope SSG finds a way to make stealth play viable, they should play Ghost Recon for a bit to get a good idea of how stealth play should operate.
Thankfully our guild set up is a natural deterrent to players that like perfect gear sets, past lives xp/min and all the in-game buffs, we are definitely another unique playstyle that finds our dopamine differently than other playstyles.
As for how to fix invisibility zerging, just treat invisibility much like tumbling, give it one or two charges that only last for 3-5 seconds. This would even allow for building invisible playstyles by having things in the trees that would add to charges and duration(especially in the stealth like/rogue trees).
As for the new alert design, i have always been one for making danger alert very punishing, especially for the AOE players that want to gather mobs together whilst using game resources and potentially causing game lag for others. But for stealth players having one mob on the alert should not trigger an entire quest to be alerted, unless of course it is an arena like quest and all the mobs is within a fairly small confined area then alert is obvious.
Thankfully our guild set up is a natural deterrent to players that like perfect gear sets, past lives xp/min and all the in-game buffs, we are definitely another unique playstyle that finds our dopamine differently than other playstyles.
As for how to fix invisibility zerging, just treat invisibility much like tumbling, give it one or two charges that only last for 3-5 seconds. This would even allow for building invisible playstyles by having things in the trees that would add to charges and duration(especially in the stealth like/rogue trees).
As for the new alert design, i have always been one for making danger alert very punishing, especially for the AOE players that want to gather mobs together whilst using game resources and potentially causing game lag for others. But for stealth players having one mob on the alert should not trigger an entire quest to be alerted, unless of course it is an arena like quest and all the mobs is within a fairly small confined area then alert is obvious.
Konsumer
Well-known member
Apparently, it wasn't fixed today either. I tested it the same way. It should be utterly impossible for a HN troll to detect my movements. And yet, they do, then, instantly, every monster knows exactly where I am and heads toward me.
We don't even get the courtesy of a note, a warning, or some official notice saying "hey, we broke stealth completely. We'll have it fixed by 2026."
We don't even get the courtesy of a note, a warning, or some official notice saying "hey, we broke stealth completely. We'll have it fixed by 2026."
Ying
5000+ hours played
Today was maintenance, not a patch.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
I just went into there to as I was curious. Used my capped warlock that has zero points nor effort invested into hide/move silent. Popped invis, hit sneak, and walked around; none of the trolls noticed me unless I walked right into them. And even when I did to that, none of the prior groups I had snuck past agro'd, they'd been successfully dealt with and avoided.
Konsumer
Well-known member
Try it with stealth. The argument isn't that invis is broke. It's that stealth is broken.
Nokowi
Well-known member
I have always been supportive of other playstyles not my own so I'm not sure where you are coming from here. I don't see my posts ever saying there are no penalties or choices for someone brute forcing their way through a quest. The words LESS were certainly used for play choices and MORE for build choices. Less does not mean none. More does not mean it is the only constraint.
I was a heavy (daily) raider so I have no idea where you are coming from here. I actually competed with the META builds through my play choices - back when play choices mattered much more.
Is it really necessary to believe these things about me as a means to to not read what I have written? Think about responding to what I have said rather than your inaccurate characterization of me. Responding to what I have said is actionable and inline with what you expect of others accepting other playstyles.
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rabidfox
The People's Champion
I was just copying your original directions:
But okay, just did that quest again with zero invis, just used sneak. I pretty much had to stand on a mob before it would agro. And using the eyeball for detection, I was able to sneak past them just fine. I snuck past a few groups then purposefully agro'd a pack, and only that pack attacked me, all the prior groups I'd snuck past were just chilling and had no clue I existed.
Ying
5000+ hours played
Look again. The response wasn't to you.
Nokowi
Well-known member
You quoted my words in post #46. That's what I responded to.
If you are responding to someone else and not me consider quoting their words and not mine.
erethizon1
Well-known member
Making reaper difficult for all players should never have been more important than core class mechanics. If someone wants to stealth through a dungeon, let them. DDO does not benefit from being so killing oriented. I generally enjoy all of the non-DPS features of an MMO more than the DPS ones. DDO has sadly neglected everything but DPS (even cannith crafting is terrible now). A character that excels at everything but killing should be able to progress nicely in an MMO, including this one.
I gave up playing my favorite classes long ago knowing that the only way to play DDO was to maximize AOE DPS. It doesn't make the game more fun though (especially for someone like me that always filled the non-dps rolls in MMO's in the past.
rabidfox
The People's Champion
Maybe I'm missing the big picture here for what other people do when stealthing. I'm not having any issues stealthing past mobs. Packs I've successfully stealthed past don't come running after me when I unstealth. The only issue I see is if a mob spots me, I have to fight them (no way to ditch them as they'll always come after me until they're dead - well I might be able to ditch them but not effectively). To me that feels fine, you saw me & now you have to die.
erethizon1
Well-known member
Maybe he was on a horse and you were not?
