What in the hot mess did you do to stealth?

[Nokowi]

Maybe I'm missing the big picture here for what other people do when stealthing. I'm not having any issues stealthing past mobs. Packs I've successfully stealthed past don't come running after me when I unstealth. The only issue I see is if a mob spots me, I have to fight them (no way to ditch them as they'll always come after me until they're dead - well I might be able to ditch them but not effectively). To me that feels fine, you saw me & now you have to die.

You actually need to play the playstyle for a while to understand the issues. We had a forum member Chai that would test every few months and show devs how mobs were aggroing onto a stealthy player from completely different regions of the quest. Even if you are not personally aware of some of the issues developers certainly are. It might even be related to the issue you observed many many years later but one that devs never addressed from the initial feedback.

On a design basis you should never generate more aggro by hitting the stealth button as compared to not hitting the stealth button. There have been things like larger detection zones while in stealth where a monster detects you earlier in stealth than standing there not in stealth. That implementation is really poor design even if it works as you would expect to the very causal observer.

If we took 5 seconds to see if an implementation makes sense DDO's design would fail.
- I should never be more detectable trying to sneak than not trying to sneak
- Monsters should actually have to detect me or reasonably know of me to know my pinpoint location
- the detection algorithm should be inherently stable: if stealth players are seeing additional aggro so should non stealth players.

A common sense approach would be that a monster detecting you knows your exact location. They increase the detection ability of those around them "alert status' but you have to be physically attacked or bumped into to remove you from stealth where everyone has a pinpoint location.

There could be various approaches to minimize resource cost like making only one spot/listen check for a group on mobs where only a player hide/move silently failure requires a secondary calculation. The playerbase is there to help SSG implement enough challenge to prevent the zerg crowd from simply sneaking through quests at zerg speed.

This includes making invis on its own far less powerful than invis plus stealth. Their poor invis system used to zerg by non stealth players is what actually started the decline of stealth. Fixing invis was the player-suggested solution.

 

[The Narc2]

You actually need to play the playstyle for a while to understand the issues. We had a forum member Chai that would test every few months and show devs how mobs were aggroing onto a stealthy player from completely different regions of the quest. Even if you are not personally aware of some of the issues developers certainly are. It might even be related to the issue you observed many many years later but one that devs never addressed from the initial feedback.

On a design basis you should never generate more aggro by hitting the stealth button as compared to not hitting the stealth button. There have been things like larger detection zones while in stealth where a monster detects you earlier in stealth than standing there not in stealth. That implementation is really poor design even if it works as you would expect to the very causal observer.

If we took 5 seconds to see if an implementation makes sense DDO's design would fail.
- I should never be more detectable trying to sneak than not trying to sneak
- Monsters should actually have to detect me or reasonably know of me to know my pinpoint location
- the detection algorithm should be inherently stable: if stealth players are seeing additional aggro so should non stealth players.

A common sense approach would be that a monster detecting you knows your exact location. They increase the detection ability of those around them "alert status' but you have to be physically attacked or bumped into to remove you from stealth where everyone has a pinpoint location.

There could be various approaches to minimize resource cost like making only one spot/listen check for a group on mobs where only a player hide/move silently failure requires a secondary calculation. The playerbase is there to help SSG implement enough challenge to prevent the zerg crowd from simply sneaking through quests at zerg speed.

This includes making invis on its own far less powerful than invis plus stealth. Their poor invis system used to zerg by non stealth players is what actually started the decline of stealth. Fixing invis was the player-suggested solution.

Yes make it like tumble, charges with timers for full movement speed, that will kill the invisible zerg playstyle and allow stealth to be corrected in a way that makes it playable.

 

[Nokowi]

Knowledge > skill for bypassing mobs in a quest. Which gen1 reapers can you stealth by? Gen2? It's rhetorical. When you know, it's easy to leverage stealth techniques.

I don't know what you mean by "a stealth player wants opposition".

The skill was in managing movement in and out of stealth while killing mobs and preventing the situation where you have a mob attacking you for any extended period of time. You had to manage your tools so you quickly kill mobs. You had to be at the right place on the screen at the right time so that you were not wasting time moving towards mobs. This means predicting what the other players will do and where the mobs will be. You had very little healing so the penalty in terms of recovery time and lowered dps were stiff.

That was back when there were major penalties for being detected - like not being able to assassinate and much lower dps.

Put another way if two players entered the same quest the result would have been much different while not being a build/gear or knowledge difference. Play choices really mattered as DDO had a great stealth implementation in the past.

 

[Nokowi]

Yes make it like tumble, charges with timers for full movement speed, that will kill the invisible zerg playstyle and allow stealth to be corrected in a way that makes it playable.

They made it work without charges in the past and nobody was sneaking by content for max xp/min.

I would not recommend charges for tumble or for stealth.

 

[rabidfox]

You actually need to play the playstyle for a while to understand the issues.

You'd need to explain how the latest changes broke/altered stealth play for you. Because I'm not seeing any difference when I sneak now vs before; other than I can't ditch a mob once they see me (which maybe not being able to ditch a mob is the issue for you?).

 

[Frisson]

I've often felt like Invisibility is too readily accessible through easy-to-acquire clickies, as well as vendors selling scrolls. That made things like invis-zerging super easy to pull off. Which in turn meant: not engaging with the stealth system of the game, as initially designed. And often: not engaging with the various encounters in the dungeon either.

Furthermore, because it is so easy to acquire- players don't have to make difficult decisions about memorizing that spell, for classes that get it on their spell list. Similarly, things like Archmages that specialize in the Illusion school (who get Invis as an SLA), end up having such investment toward a would-be unique perk, becoming diminished; both from a power perspective, but also a flavour one. Having to weigh up the opportunity cost of taking such spells over others, would end up differentiating players from one another. Or each life, from the previous one- rather than having a staple of "always taken" spells. It would also open up space for utility-providing classes to become desireable again in groups. Whereas right now- in the case of Invisibility- they are replaced by a piece of parchment.

It's also just a very powerful effect. Some might say: the most powerful. Therefore, its availability sort of cheapens its magnitude. Not to mention: the game's difficulty...

When you put that all together- I would posit that it's a failure in design, that we have got to this point. I say that with utmost respect towards the developers, who I know had to make tough calls along the way.

But I also say it with the hope that it can be remedied. And it can

Also...why do Reapers have "tremor sense" when they are floating, incorporeal beings?

 

[5 Other People]

Just take it back to the way it was before invisi-running became a thing.

So, it's been a while since I wanted to zerg, but well over a decade ago folks were hard zerging invisible and this was a feature of the game that many folks loved, posted about and was widely accepted. The inspired quarter was a mini-game of how can I zerg and get the lowest times possible.

This stealthing change is not b/c the user were doing something new, it was b/c a previous change to tackle server lag left many monsters immobile (they lobotomized AI to free up server workload), so this most recent change to monster tracking is to fix a previous change to monster tracking to address server lag b/c of other changes...given this, it's unlikely we will ever get back to the way it was :(\

We sacrificed stealth to lag...so yeah, 64-bit servers are mostly lag free, but it has also drastically changed game play as evident by this thread. The troubling thought...can stealth be resurrected without bringing back lag...maybe we need elminster to spin us up a poll: Would your rather have lag or stealth?

 

[Nokowi]

You'd need to explain how the latest changes broke/altered stealth play for you. Because I'm not seeing any difference when I sneak now vs before; other than I can't ditch a mob once they see me (which maybe not being able to ditch a mob is the issue for you?).

I took the time to respond to what was wrong with stealth gameplay based on your not understanding what was wrong with stealth gameplay.

I see no acknowledgement or receiving of that information.


I'm going to take a hard pass on providing additional information when there is a proven inability to receive that information. I've already done enough if you have the desire to listen.

I would encourage dev's to talk to their player base about their design - that is if they are willing to listen.

 

[rabidfox]

I'm going to take a hard pass on providing additional information when there is a proven inability to receive that information. I've already done enough if you have the desire to listen.

As far as I can see this thread was about https://www.ddo.com/update-notes/ddo-update-73-1-release-notes and the invis/blind changes affecting the state of stealth; so that's the only thing I care about.

 

[Nokowi]

As far as I can see this thread was about https://www.ddo.com/update-notes/ddo-update-73-1-release-notes and the invis/blind changes affecting the state of stealth; so that's the only thing I care about.

Maybe re-read the original post. It talks about how rogues have been treated over their 17 years here and my comments incorporate the OP much better than yours do. If you want to limit yourself to the 73.1 changes then you can start by not asking what others are complaining about. You won't get it based on a single update.

 

[OG DM]

You'd need to explain how the latest changes broke/altered stealth play for you. Because I'm not seeing any difference when I sneak now vs before; other than I can't ditch a mob once they see me (which maybe not being able to ditch a mob is the issue for you?).

Latest changes? There have been a minimum of 3 updates (likely more) which have broken stealth play. This is not an exhaustive list.

1. "Stealth not supported in reaper" update broke invis everywhere and caused it to become an aggro magnet to the point where people were trying to figure out how to turn it into a tanking mechanism. In no D&D themed game should invis+hide+move silent be easier to detect than just hide+move silent, but here we are.

2. The initial "eye icons above mobs heads" update caused an unrealistic paradigm where all mobs can eventually see you. Hide/move silently maxed out gets seen as easily as someone with half the value = why even build for those skills?

3. The aggro transmission update caused an issue where if one party member at one end of the quest (re: piking at the beginning) gets seen, the mobs at the other end of the quest (near the end) know where the PC near them is as well. Did the ooze near the start-of-quest get on its cellphone and call the hobgoblin near end-of-quest? lol

I'm from the era of Ghoste parties and stealth PD groups - where quests had an Insidious Cunning bonus and Discreet bonus. It takes alot longer to run quests this way but it was more fun having a character or two on the account built this way rather than all brute force builds.

 

[rabidfox]

Latest changes? There have been a minimum of 3 updates (likely more) which have broken stealth play. This is not an exhaustive list.

1. "Stealth not supported in reaper" update broke invis everywhere and caused it to become an aggro magnet to the point where people were trying to figure out how to turn it into a tanking mechanism. In no D&D themed game should invis+hide+move silent be easier to detect than just hide+move silent, but here we are.

2. The initial "eye icons above mobs heads" update caused an unrealistic paradigm where all mobs can eventually see you. Hide/move silently maxed out gets seen as easily as someone with half the value = why even build for those skills?

3. The aggro transmission update caused an issue where if one party member at one end of the quest (re: piking at the beginning) gets seen, the mobs at the other end of the quest (near the end) know where the PC near them is as well. Did the ooze near the start-of-quest get on its cellphone and call the hobgoblin near end-of-quest? lol

I'm from the era of Ghoste parties and stealth PD groups - where quests had an Insidious Cunning bonus and Discreet bonus. It takes alot longer to run quests this way but it was more fun having a character or two on the account built this way rather than all brute force builds.

I assumed people were talking about the update a couple weeks ago (since there's been multiple threads about it), but apparently many folks are talking about things from way back; so my bad.

 

[OG DM]

I assumed people were talking about the update a couple weeks ago (since there's been multiple threads about it), but apparently many folks are talking about things from way back; so my bad.

There may have been some things more recently as well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I log in once in a while to check up but have 99% moved on. Was just talking to some tabletop D&D folks who used to play this game if they wanted to maybe start a static group, and this issue is among the pile of issues spoken out loud as to why they haven't logged on in eons.

 

[Konsumer]

I was just copying your original directions:

But okay, just did that quest again with zero invis, just used sneak. I pretty much had to stand on a mob before it would agro. And using the eyeball for detection, I was able to sneak past them just fine. I snuck past a few groups then purposefully agro'd a pack, and only that pack attacked me, all the prior groups I'd snuck past were just chilling and had no clue I existed.

I'll do it again tomorrow and let you know what happens.

 

[rabidfox]

I'll do it again tomorrow and let you know what happens.

Here's a video clip (2x speed) of my warlock (30 hide / 31 move silent).

https://imgur.com/a/HnGt04q

 

[Br4d]

Here's a video clip (2x speed) of my warlock (30 hide / 31 move silent).

https://imgur.com/a/HnGt04q

You're not getting aggro because of level difference.

Try running a level 9 with 30/31 through there.

 

[rabidfox]

You're not getting aggro because of level difference.

Try running a level 9 with 30/31 through there.

The OP stated:

I went into Gateway to Khyber on HN with my high stealth capped rogue. I cast inviso and ran through the open areas, then stealthed past the mobs. Somehow, 1 troll detected me in the first batch. By the time I got to the 4 boss trolls it was a red alert and every monster in the dungeon was right behind me. Every one of them detected me despite stealth or invis. ON NORMAL!

<snip> Stop trying to hamper their remaining ability of stealth with locked rooms that won't open till everything is dead or red alerts because 1 single CR 12 monster miraculously detected a 140 H/MS.

They said capped rogue; so I used my capped character with bad stealth. If we want to discuss non-capped characters then that's whatever; I'm just trying to see what's going on with what they had happen vs my experiences in the game. If the recent update broke something, then it needs to get fixed.

 

[Br4d]

The OP stated:

They said capped rogue; so I used my capped character with bad stealth. If we want to discuss non-capped characters then that's whatever; I'm just trying to see what's going on with what they had happen vs my experiences in the game. If the recent update broke something, then it needs to get fixed.

At a guess he rolled the 1 in 1000 chance a level 9 troll could pick him up. That or came into contact with the mob. You cannot maintain stealth through physical contact under any circumstances. All it would take is a momentary increase in latency for him to wind up in the mob if he was close to it.

The big change I am seeing with my level 9 stealther right now with capped stealth is that one detection results in all mobs in the immediate vicinity detecting you and coming running to the dinner bell.

This is likely two things happening:

1. The detection flips the switch on the mobs in question and they come running.

2. All mobs in the vicinity for several rooms chain in at almost predictable intervals those being the amount of time it takes for them to run in from their current location.

The second behavior probably has less to do with stealth than with a bug that has been happening intermittently for months on all servers. My EK/PM on Orien started noticing chain packs maybe about the time that Cormyr opened. This is with no stealth in the equation. It doesn't happen all the time and it doesn't happen in all instances although the majority of the instances it happens in for me are old content because that is what I like to run.

It's actually a really fun experience for a melee dancer with AoE's because it is usually manageable with the right movement and play choices. I think I remarked on it in an earlier thread with the hope that it was a random occurrence that had been built in somehow. However it is probably a very frustrating experience for a single target melee, which stealthers often are.

 

[OG DM]

He described how invis is broken and people are trying to prove how stealth still works with overlevel characters?

Football seems alot different when playing it on a basketball court. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The issue described here is invis makes it EASIER to detect you because if the mob detects the invis the stealth does not matter, it sees you now. A true sight buff for instance, will invalidate in vis but should not invalidate hide/move silent, but the way its coded, seeing through invis means being detected, and all other mobs now see you as well.

 

[Br4d]

About 10 minutes after I posted I ran Storm the Beaches on Elite with my level 9 Rogue. It felt almost like old times. Had 50 kills in the instance and skipped all the chests except the end and was detected only a few times. No overrun at any point.

It's possible they fixed something during the maintenance.