What in the hot mess did you do to stealth?

[rabidfox]

All mobs in the vicinity for several rooms chain in at almost predictable intervals those being the amount of time it takes for them to run in from their current location.

The second behavior probably has less to do with stealth than with a bug that has been happening intermittently for months on all servers. My EK/PM on Orien started noticing chain packs maybe about the time that Cormyr opened. This is with no stealth in the equation. It doesn't happen all the time and it doesn't happen in all instances although the majority of the instances it happens in for me are old content because that is what I like to run.

Yeah, a couple months ago I was running tear of dhakaan, not stealthing or zerging, just killing everything along the way. Suddenly I spike an instant red alert and multiple packs come after me from further ahead in the quest. Zero reason they should've agro'd and haven't seen it happen in there since then, but there's some odd wonk that happens like that from time to time.

 

[rabidfox]

The issue described here is invis makes it EASIER to detect you because if the mob detects the invis the stealth does not matter, it sees you now. A true sight buff for instance, will invalidate in vis but should not invalidate hide/move silent, but the way its coded, seeing through invis means being detected, and all other mobs now see you as well.

Mobs that can see thru invis while I'm invis/sneaking isn't invalidating sneak for me.

https://imgur.com/a/G7LRlhv

edit: Just in case it's not clear in this video. I pop invis, hit sneak, and mob (with see invis) doesn't care that I exist. Its ability to see thru invis doesn't negatively effect stealthing at all. When I turn off sneak, the mob then instantly attacks me because its ability to see invis lets it see me then.

 

[Br4d]

Just spent a couple of hours in Demon Sands with a level 10 Rogue and no alert style action. Mobs did not detect me unless I wanted them too or could not find a path around with the exception of a few champs, likely with true-seeing.

Ran both Chambers quests on Elite and was actually under level for the Astrologer.

I have no idea if this is fixed or not but it felt good to stealth again. I haven't run Demon Sands on a stealther in probably 5 years but it felt very much like that experience.

 

[Redoubt]

What exactly is difficult about stealthing that makes it much more difficult than AoE zerging? I've used stealth or invis in many quests to bypass mobs I don't need to fight when soloing, especially on R10. There's little investment in it beyond casting an invis scroll, or some ranks in hide/move silently. And while stealth play is cool and should be supported, you still need to have a non-gimp build to kill monsters.

46 skill points, points in dex, gear for dex, hide and MS. AP in hide and MS. etc. Being good at it is not free. I think that was the point being made.
Also, we need to make sure that we treat sneak and invisibility separately.

 

[Ying]

46 skill points, points in dex, gear for dex, hide and MS. AP in hide and MS. etc. Being good at it is not free. I think that was the point being made.
Also, we need to make sure that we treat sneak and invisibility separately.

There's nothing difficult about what you enumerated. Every class invests skill points in skills that matter to their playstyle. Same with gearing attributes. Being "good" is a function of observation and experience, not a cost.

Still waiting on the poster to respond.

 

[Redoubt]

Maybe I'm missing the big picture here for what other people do when stealthing. I'm not having any issues stealthing past mobs. Packs I've successfully stealthed past don't come running after me when I unstealth. The only issue I see is if a mob spots me, I have to fight them (no way to ditch them as they'll always come after me until they're dead - well I might be able to ditch them but not effectively). To me that feels fine, you saw me & now you have to die.

Your testing sounds promising, but I'll ask this: is there a reason we should not be able to ditch a mob that spotted us?

Certainly, there are scripted places where we should not and some mob types should be more persistent and/or effective, but should they all?

 

[Redoubt]

There's nothing difficult about what you enumerated. Every class invests skill points in skills that matter to their playstyle. Same with gearing attributes. Being "good" is a function of observation and experience, not a cost.

Still waiting on the poster to respond.

Maybe "difficult" is the wrong word. Maybe we discuss it in terms of opportunity cost?

Those skill, ability, action points and gear choices come at an opportunity cost of not using them elsewhere???

 

[Redoubt]

I went into A sharn welcome on LR1. 127 hide/MS. A couple observations from the first couple rooms and the first spiral stairs.

1. The mobs are more active than they used to be when I'm not yet detected.
2. After opening a door, I went around the corner and went into sneak. The mobs would follow. I was able to evade them by breaking line of sight.
3. The "hide from a dinosaur" method no longer works. When not detected and remaining stationary, the mobs did ramp up "eyes" and eventually find me. (Several meters away.)
4. The mob groups will share aggro. My instance had mobs on the spiral stairs. And the alerted as soon as I touched the stairs. I sneaked back to the previous doorway (so as to not walk into the previous group of mobs) and circled back around the searching mobs following my "echo". I went up to the top of the stairs and killed the mobs in the little room up there. Both the group that had been tracking my echo AND the group that was not tracking me, came up the stairs.

 

[Ying]

Protip: If you want devs to address something, they need to reproduce it. The best way to reproduce an issue is to post a video like @rabidfox did, and include relevant details like loc/race/class/skill numbers.

 

[rabidfox]

Your testing sounds promising, but I'll ask this: is there a reason we should not be able to ditch a mob that spotted us?

Certainly, there are scripted places where we should not and some mob types should be more persistent and/or effective, but should they all?

That's a result of the recent blind/invis performance work. So since u73.1, if a mob sees past your stealth then kill it (and any other mobs from the group that gained awareness of you) before advancing; that'll prevent dragging mobs that'll chase you thru the end of time into other groups potentially causing them to come after you too. I assume Torc will be doing futher adjustments to this with "This is going to be an iterative process." part of the work.

IMPORTANT - This this should not affect the stealth experience for players who were never seen in the first place. This really only touches monsters who already hate you but can't see you very well for the reasons stated above.

ALSO IMPORTANT - This is going to be an iterative process. This will mean blind monsters will be more effective at continuing to engage in combat than they once were, though the player should continue to enjoy a significant advantage. We would still like to make the monsters simulate "being blind" in a more convincing fashion but not at the cost of monsters "just plain working", so assuming we see improvements (which our repro's on the issue currently indicate we will), we will gradually add/adjust nuisances back into the system slowly and in a more performant manner till we get the balance right.

 

[rabidfox]

Protip: If you want devs to address something, they need to reproduce it. The best way to reproduce an issue is to post a video like @rabidfox did, and include relevant details like loc/race/class/skill numbers.

100% ^. The ability to reproduce a bug matters. Like in the case of this thread, both my videos show the opposite of things that have been claimed in this thread; it doesn't mean those issues don't exist for others, but they don't exist for me when I've done stealthy stuff. I've been unable to reproduce those claims.

 

[Konsumer]

He described how invis is broken and people are trying to prove how stealth still works with overlevel characters?

Football seems alot different when playing it on a basketball court. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The issue described here is invis makes it EASIER to detect you because if the mob detects the invis the stealth does not matter, it sees you now. A true sight buff for instance, will invalidate in vis but should not invalidate hide/move silent, but the way its coded, seeing through invis means being detected, and all other mobs now see you as well.

bingo

 

[Redoubt]

That's a result of the recent blind/invis performance work. So since u73.1, if a mob sees past your stealth then kill it (and any other mobs from the group that gained awareness of you) before advancing; that'll prevent dragging mobs that'll chase you thru the end of time into other groups potentially causing them to come after you too. I assume Torc will be doing futher adjustments to this with "This is going to be an iterative process." part of the work.

I understand that killing the mob should stop that mob from sharing aggro. That wasn't my question.

The question is, should we be able to "lose" a mob after it has seen us? I'm not asking if we can in the current iteration. I'm asking where we should set the goal.

 

[rabidfox]

The question is, should we be able to "lose" a mob after it has seen us? I'm not asking if we can in the current iteration. I'm asking where we should set the goal.

Mobs stop chasing us when we're not stealthed, but seem to go forever if one is invis (from what others have said, I haven't run around all day testing that); so I would assume yes, they should really be made to stop at some point.

 

[Nokowi]

100% ^. The ability to reproduce a bug matters. Like in the case of this thread, both my videos show the opposite of things that have been claimed in this thread; it doesn't mean those issues don't exist for others, but they don't exist for me when I've done stealthy stuff. I've been unable to reproduce those claims.

I agree videos are helpful - if a dev is watching them.

I don't think you actually disproved anything. DDO has complex conditions and invis could very well be invalidating stealth - just not in the way/instance you tested.

I for one would not post videos here based
- lack of direct dev response
- people that are not stealth experts wanting to dominate what can be discussed
- those invalidating things that were not actually invalidated

On the other hand I think quite a few stealth players would work directly with Torc if he needs to know anything.

I'm sure others may feel differently and may be interested in producing videos here.

Bets of luck!

 

[rabidfox]

I don't think you actually disproved anything. DDO has complex conditions and invis could very well be invalidating stealth - just not in the way/instance you tested.

Like I said:

it doesn't mean those issues don't exist for others, but they don't exist for me when I've done stealthy stuff. I've been unable to reproduce those claims.

Someone is welcome to post video backing up their claims. One can't prove a negative that something never happens, but I can show that it doesn't happen to me; I'm waiting for someone to show it happening to them.

- people that are not stealth experts wanting to dominate what can be discussed

I didn't realize someone needs to be an expert or that there was some specially criteria for views on stealth play. I personally do a bit of stealthing every life. I like doing Frame Work every TR without sounding any alarms (and a few other select quests but that one is my favorite). I just want to figure out if there's new bugs or not going on.

 

[Konsumer]

Here you go. Same character, same dungeon, same difficulty, and the same results occur 3 times now.
Capped full rogue in a HN jungle of kyber. I get detected at the very start without ever actually touching the troll. I move ahead and the whole dungeon gets alerted. They know exactly where I am. Red alert ensues.

I' not even gonna mention that when you jump in stealth, suddenly you lose all your speed.

 

[J1NG]

Here you go. Same character, same dungeon, same difficulty, and the same results occur 3 times now.
Capped full rogue in a HN jungle of kyber. I get detected at the very start without ever actually touching the troll. I move ahead and the whole dungeon gets alerted. They know exactly where I am. Red alert ensues.

I' not even gonna mention that when you jump in stealth, suddenly you lose all your speed.

I think in this example you provided here, you might have missed out that you glided down on top of one of the trolls over the first stone block at the start there. So them knowing you were there was not surprising. There's also an auto 3m(?) auto detect distance for invisibility that is taken over Stealth (Hide/Move Silently) so if you were only Stealthed, you might have been missed. But with Invisbility, you'll pretty much be auto discovered.

J1NG

 

[rabidfox]

Here you go. Same character, same dungeon, same difficulty, and the same results occur 3 times now.
Capped full rogue in a HN jungle of kyber. I get detected at the very start without ever actually touching the troll. I move ahead and the whole dungeon gets alerted. They know exactly where I am. Red alert ensues.

I' not even gonna mention that when you jump in stealth, suddenly you lose all your speed.

1m4s in, you jump right over a troll (likely agro'ing them on the z-axis, quite possibly even stepping inside the hit box from above). You then proceed to drag that agro'd group into other mobs that then also agro creating a chain reaction. If you had killed the 1st group once they saw thru stealth, then the other mobs wouldn't have been an issue.

 

[vryxnr]

Here you go. Same character, same dungeon, same difficulty, and the same results occur 3 times now.
Capped full rogue in a HN jungle of kyber. I get detected at the very start without ever actually touching the troll. I move ahead and the whole dungeon gets alerted. They know exactly where I am. Red alert ensues.

I' not even gonna mention that when you jump in stealth, suddenly you lose all your speed.

I agree that not being able to lose aggro afterwards is stupid. But in your video, at 1:03, you quite literally bounce off the top of a trolls head (it was when you walked off the block on the left side, there was a troll there and you to moved to the right slightly as you stepped on it's head).

I just did a run through to see myself, but I didn't step onto any troll heads, and kept an actual reasonable distance, and made it to the end no problem.

BUT again, not being able to lose aggro once they do aggro on you is really lame/stupid.