What in the hot mess did you do to stealth?

[rabidfox]

BUT again, not being able to lose aggro once they do aggro on you is really lame/stupid.

They're very agressive once they spot you now; @J1NG has done some detailed posts on all that. It's pretty much kill them or they're going to cause issues once they see ya. Hopefully Torc adjusts things to make them better in the near future.

 

[vryxnr]

They're very agressive once they spot you now; @J1NG has done some detailed posts on all that. It's pretty much kill them or they're going to cause issues once they see ya. Hopefully Torc adjusts things to make them better in the near future.

Yeah, before the most recent chance, it was still a challenge (lose line of sight and be stealthed, often only possible if you also had wings of some sort to gain enough distance quickly) but was still possible... now, it does feel like we're being forced to kill or be able to cast DDoor instead of (what I think should be a valid option of) fleeing and hiding.

 

[Nokowi]

Like I said:

Someone is welcome to post video backing up their claims. One can't prove a negative that something never happens, but I can show that it doesn't happen to me; I'm waiting for someone to show it happening to them.

That was exactly my point. You can't have disproven someone else's experience from your one test. You are welcome to say you have but I am allowed to disagree.

I didn't realize someone needs to be an expert or that there was some specially criteria for views on stealth play. I personally do a bit of stealthing every life. I like doing Frame Work every TR without sounding any alarms (and a few other select quests but that one is my favorite). I just want to figure out if there's new bugs or not going on.

There is no knowledge requirement to post. I clearly only spoke for myself and I used direct words indicating that I was speaking only for myself. It requires a lot of effort to have to correct a high percentage of posts. So for me and only me the misrepresentation of my words that could not have ever meant what your response indicates "you must have x knowledge to post" is a perfect example of why the level of effort would be far too high (for me) to achieve a desired result.

I will call out the time and effort both you and Jing have for personally testing many DDO issues.

Again, best of luck, I have been chased away and scolded appropriately to exit the thread.

My stealth experience will not be of use here.

 

[rabidfox]

There's also an auto 3m(?) auto detect distance for invisibility that is taken over Stealth (Hide/Move Silently) so if you were only Stealthed, you might have been missed. But with Invisbility, you'll pretty much be auto discovered.

I'm not seeing that.
If I stealth and flank them then I can touch them. I can get spotted if I'm just near them in their front view (a couple feet away).
If I stealth + invis and flank them then I can touch them. I can get spotted if I'm just near them in their front view (a couple feet away).
The distance between when I get spotted in the front view seems the about same to me (I only tried a few times of each so it could always be DDO being DDO). Or maybe I need higher skills than 44/44 in HN there to make that gap apparent?

 

[Konsumer]

1m4s in, you jump right over a troll (likely agro'ing them on the z-axis, quite possibly even stepping inside the hit box from above). You then proceed to drag that agro'd group into other mobs that then also agro creating a chain reaction. If you had killed the 1st group once they saw thru stealth, then the other mobs wouldn't have been an issue.

I think you're not taking into account the level/skill difference. It seems if invis fails, stealth is not considered.

 

[Konsumer]

I think in this example you provided here, you might have missed out that you glided down on top of one of the trolls over the first stone block at the start there. So them knowing you were there was not surprising. There's also an auto 3m(?) auto detect distance for invisibility that is taken over Stealth (Hide/Move Silently) so if you were only Stealthed, you might have been missed. But with Invisbility, you'll pretty much be auto discovered.

J1NG

tomorrow I'll try it without the invis. Because that seems to override skill if detected. As to proximity, unless I hit them, they shouldn't be able to detect me even if i jump on their heads. Which I didn't. Notice the red eye symbol came up to my right. A troll I didn't actually connect with.

 

[J1NG]

tomorrow I'll try it without the invis. Because that seems to override skill if detected. As to proximity, unless I hit them, they shouldn't be able to detect me even if i jump on their heads. Which I didn't. Notice the red eye symbol came up to my right. A troll I didn't actually connect with.

I believe from my observations, that there's actually a dual detection issue going on there as well that might be causing the weirdness involved by detection.

1. If your move silent is low enough, it causes the sound echoes and actually might temporarily cause enemies to not consider you whilst you are still moving in their zones of detection due to that check for the echo. So enemies that unable to spot you or see Invisibility can actually do what you described and land on their heads without issue.

2. Conversely, if your move silent is high enough then because there is no echo to trigger them to search towards the echo and miss you, it instead allows the enemies to detect you as you have entered their detection zone which is automatic at a certain point (it's roughly a 120 degree cone in front of the enemies). Outside of this zone would be fine.

I believe in the video you provided you fell foul of 2. As your move silent is very likely at a level they can not normally detect and thus they only have the auto detection zone (when you landed in front of them between the two Trolls) and that's what set them off.

So there's a weird dichotomy where if you're Invis'ing, then having bad move silent skills might actually be a plus if enemies are scattered in a pattern ahead of you where you can not sneak by them normally (with enough distance between you in their detection zones).

J1NG

 

[Blerkington]

I understand that killing the mob should stop that mob from sharing aggro. That wasn't my question.

The question is, should we be able to "lose" a mob after it has seen us? I'm not asking if we can in the current iteration. I'm asking where we should set the goal.

I agree that not being able to lose aggro afterwards is stupid. But in your video, at 1:03, you quite literally bounce off the top of a trolls head (it was when you walked off the block on the left side, there was a troll there and you to moved to the right slightly as you stepped on it's head).

I just did a run through to see myself, but I didn't step onto any troll heads, and kept an actual reasonable distance, and made it to the end no problem.

BUT again, not being able to lose aggro once they do aggro on you is really lame/stupid.

I strongly agree that being able to lose monsters once they've seen us is a reasonable use of stealth. This is something that we've been able to do for as long as I can remember and I haven't seen any good reason advanced why it should suddenly no longer be allowed.

Scenarios like collecting soul stones and saving the party from a wipe, using stealth to 'tank' monsters by making them search for us, or using assassinate again in a fight that lasts beyond the usual few seconds are all examples of a rogue making legitimate use of their special capability. It's being able to do these things that adds depth to the rogue (and other stealth builds) and makes it that much more interesting.

There's going to be a temptation to take the position that only bad players get seen and so it's fine for them to be punished by a less forgiving system. Rather than that we should be asking for this part of the stealth game, losing monsters who are aware of our presence, to be entertaining and challenging instead of just consenting for it to be removed.

What we absolutely shouldn't be doing is turning this into a pissing contest where we bicker with each other and use this solely as an opportunity to grandstand by telling everyone else it's not a problem for me because I'm just that good. Let's keep the pressure up on the person who created this mess so the new system isn't left in this incomplete state and it provides for everyone.

 

[Konsumer]

I believe from my observations, that there's actually a dual detection issue going on there as well that might be causing the weirdness involved by detection.

1. If your move silent is low enough, it causes the sound echoes and actually might temporarily cause enemies to not consider you whilst you are still moving in their zones of detection due to that check for the echo. So enemies that unable to spot you or see Invisibility can actually do what you described and land on their heads without issue.

2. Conversely, if your move silent is high enough then because there is no echo to trigger them to search towards the echo and miss you, it instead allows the enemies to detect you as you have entered their detection zone which is automatic at a certain point (it's roughly a 120 degree cone in front of the enemies). Outside of this zone would be fine.

I believe in the video you provided you fell foul of 2. As your move silent is very likely at a level they can not normally detect and thus they only have the auto detection zone (when you landed in front of them between the two Trolls) and that's what set them off.

So there's a weird dichotomy where if you're Invis'ing, then having bad move silent skills might actually be a plus if enemies are scattered in a pattern ahead of you where you can not sneak by them normally (with enough distance between you in their detection zones).

J1NG

The first two time I went around them. Not over. The video/3rd time I went overhead.

 

[AustrianDeathMachine]

The two videos are different in that one jumps the ravine and one invis runs through it. There are three trolls that spawn on the left as you come out of the ravine that don't when you jump it. If he follows that path each time he is just getting an invis detect on the group to the left if he does not go into sneak before they spawn. That could be part of the difference.

 

[Konsumer]

4th time. Same affect. No inviso. Didn't touch a troll. Stealth only.

 

[rabidfox]

4th time. Same affect. No inviso. Didn't touch a troll. Stealth only.

That's wild and so wrong that's happening to you. Just that character having that issue, right? You're not seeing that on alts? I assume no aura that would explain it. Have you tried without that pet out in case they broke something involving it? Or maybe they broke things in a way where your really high stealth stats relative to the low level mobs is causing it to go wonky.

 

[vryxnr]

It does seem that those trolls in particular have ridiculously high spot. A bunch had 4 symbols as you passed, and I suspect once they were behind you it turned into an outright detection. I've been running in there with one of my characters that has decent stealth (111 hide, 93 ms) and so long as I keep the eye symbols under 4 (which requires keeping a bit more distance) I can stealth through just fine. But if I get too close, and don't back away quickly enough after they get to 4 symbols, they are able to spot me and chase until I kill them.

The direction they are facing also matters. I was able to move into their backsides and push forward on them without being detected. But the moment I moved in front / where they were facing, they could detect me if I was too close. The fact that these trolls also are not static, but move around and change the direction they are facing, can make things more challenging for sure. I do think these ones are way over-tuned though. Stealth only being viable by being so incredibly over-leveled for the content is not how it should be.

 

[Konsumer]

That's wild and so wrong that's happening to you. Just that character having that issue, right? You're not seeing that on alts? I assume no aura that would explain it. Have you tried without that pet out in case they broke something involving it? Or maybe they broke things in a way where your really high stealth stats relative to the low level mobs is causing it to go wonky.

I only have the one stealth toon so I can't test it on others.

 

[Konsumer]

It does seem that those trolls in particular have ridiculously high spot. A bunch had 4 symbols as you passed, and I suspect once they were behind you it turned into an outright detection. I've been running in there with one of my characters that has decent stealth (111 hide, 93 ms) and so long as I keep the eye symbols under 4 (which requires keeping a bit more distance) I can stealth through just fine. But if I get too close, and don't back away quickly enough after they get to 4 symbols, they are able to spot me and chase until I kill them.

The direction they are facing also matters. I was able to move into their backsides and push forward on them without being detected. But the moment I moved in front / where they were facing, they could detect me if I was too close. The fact that these trolls also are not static, but move around and change the direction they are facing, can make things more challenging for sure. I do think these ones are way over-tuned though. Stealth only being viable by being so incredibly over-leveled for the content is not how it should be.

That should not be happening with a 111/93 H/MS when in a HN quest where monsters are cr9.

 

[J1NG]

Have an interesting addition to this after an interesting observation when I went about replicating this.

60 Move Silent, 60 Hide
Not invis'd.
HN difficulty.

Moved around the corner to the Trolls. Stayed still far enough away from them where you're out of their normal detection. Without ever moving, and whilst none of the Trolls were moving. I was suddenly detected. The most any troll had was 2 (yellow) eyes up.

Can confirm that if invis'd this doesn't happen. Meaning it's definitely a Spot vs Hide issue. But the funny thing is, there appears to be a "group" spot effort being made to roll vs your hide rather than individually.

Video will be uploaded and linked in a moment once I get the video processed.

J1NG

:: edit ::

 

[rabidfox]

Does coming in from the left vs right matter? When coming in from the left, this message shows up:

But it doesn't show up when I jump the revine from the right. So now I'm curious to see this video of J1NG's; cause it sounds like he found some interesting oddness to these mobs.

Side note, my 16/16 alt can sneak past them; so they don't seem overtuned.

 

[J1NG]

Does coming in from the left vs right matter? When coming in from the left, this message shows up:

But it doesn't show up when I jump the revine from the right. So now I'm curious to see this video of J1NG's; cause it sounds like he found some interesting oddness to these mobs.

Side note, my 16/16 alt can sneak past them; so they don't seem overtuned.

Going normal route via that point doesn't make a difference near as I can tell. Just replicated the events of my video again by going the normal route also.

J1NG

 

[Mindos]

I don't think hide/move silently means forever undetected if the numbers are high enough. Instead, the higher the numbers, the longer you can remain undetected WHEN mobs are searching for you as shown by their eye graphic above their head.

So regardless of how much overlevel you are, you will EVENTUALLY be detected IF you remain (or continue to enter the same monster's detection range causing an eye graphic to show).

The description of Hide in Plain Sight reads that it increases this time.

So maybe we are looking at this "problem" the wrong way?

 

[Mindos]

Without ever moving, and whilst none of the Trolls were moving.

I mean to brook no argument, but the video does show the trolls moving around?