What in the hot mess did you do to stealth?

[J1NG]

I mean to brook no argument, but the video does show the trolls moving around?

Yes, that is correct. But they were not moving when the detection happened, so it wasn't as though someone changed any of the variables whilst I remained out of their normal detection range also not moving.

I also just tried it well outside of their normal detection ranged as well (so never more than the 1 white eye on them). And whilst it did take longer to detect you, given when you're not moving, suddenly detecting you seems "off". It's like there's addition to the bonus of enemy detection but never any reduction, which has probably helped lead to this oddity.

J1NG

 

[rabidfox]

But the funny thing is, there appears to be a "group" spot effort being made to roll vs your hide rather than individually.

Maybe bluff pull & kill all but 1 and see how it goes then? (Just spitballing testing ideas)

 

[J1NG]

Can confirm, the bonus does NOT degrade on enemies. Meaning once they've built up enough it REMAINS at that level. That's why none of us can sneak by enemies once we DD again or lose aggro once, as that particular enemy has built up enough spot/listen bonus to track us. Which of course spreads to other enemies and before long everyone can see through the planes into another Universe and see what's happening to my Tav in their Baldur's Gate 3 campaign in the Shadowfell...

J1NG

 

[Konsumer]

Can confirm, the bonus does NOT degrade on enemies. Meaning once they've built up enough it REMAINS at that level. That's why none of us can sneak by enemies once we DD again or lose aggro once, as that particular enemy has built up enough spot/listen bonus to track us. Which of course spreads to other enemies and before long everyone can see through the planes into another Universe and see what's happening to my Tav in their Baldur's Gate 3 campaign in the Shadowfell...

J1NG

Thanks for testing. All of this is new. I didn't have this issue last month.

 

[Konsumer]

I don't think hide/move silently means forever undetected if the numbers are high enough. Instead, the higher the numbers, the longer you can remain undetected WHEN mobs are searching for you as shown by their eye graphic above their head.

So regardless of how much overlevel you are, you will EVENTUALLY be detected IF you remain (or continue to enter the same monster's detection range causing an eye graphic to show).

The description of Hide in Plain Sight reads that it increases this time.

So maybe we are looking at this "problem" the wrong way?

As my video show, you can be detected immediately if within a 5 foot radius. Regardless of your stealth skill numbers.

 

[J1NG]

So what's most concerning about this discovery is this - there are certain enemies that have been given "detection checks" automatically even when players are not anywhere near them. (Such as some of the Troll types in VoN3-Pre)

This conpounds the issue because every time enemies perform the detection check, they will have a minimum of 1 eye (white) gained. We do not need to know the number bonus it gives, since we know it doesn't go away at this point. But eventually what it means is if you take long enough before going through a dungeon with such enemies, they will have automatically built up enough Spot bonus that even before you ever meet, it's impossible to get by them without fighting to kill them first because their Spot will always be higher than what you have for Hide. Even if you use DD to escape then head back towards them.

I am unsure when this started happening, but obviously it remaining as it is means Stealth is deader than dead. And aggro management is going to need adjustment by players given this observation.

J1NG

 

[Konsumer]

I am unsure when this started happening, but obviously it remaining as it is means Stealth is deader than dead.

 

[vryxnr]

So what's most concerning about this discovery is this - there are certain enemies that have been given "detection checks" automatically even when players are not anywhere near them. (Such as some of the Troll types in VoN3-Pre)

This conpounds the issue because every time enemies perform the detection check, they will have a minimum of 1 eye (white) gained. We do not need to know the number bonus it gives, since we know it doesn't go away at this point. But eventually what it means is if you take long enough before going through a dungeon with such enemies, they will have automatically built up enough Spot bonus that even before you ever meet, it's impossible to get by them without fighting to kill them first because their Spot will always be higher than what you have for Hide. Even if you use DD to escape then head back towards them.

I am unsure when this started happening, but obviously it remaining as it is means Stealth is deader than dead. And aggro management is going to need adjustment by players given this observation.

J1NG

This is most unfortunate, sad, frustrating and annoying news to hear. I thoroughly disapprove of this entire mechanic, especially with it never decaying over time.

 

[rabidfox]

So what's most concerning about this discovery is this - there are certain enemies that have been given "detection checks" automatically even when players are not anywhere near them. (Such as some of the Troll types in VoN3-Pre)

This conpounds the issue because every time enemies perform the detection check, they will have a minimum of 1 eye (white) gained. We do not need to know the number bonus it gives, since we know it doesn't go away at this point. But eventually what it means is if you take long enough before going through a dungeon with such enemies, they will have automatically built up enough Spot bonus that even before you ever meet, it's impossible to get by them without fighting to kill them first because their Spot will always be higher than what you have for Hide. Even if you use DD to escape then head back towards them.

I am unsure when this started happening, but obviously it remaining as it is means Stealth is deader than dead. And aggro management is going to need adjustment by players given this observation.

J1NG

That's a nasty bug. I'm still not sure why Konsumer seems to be pulling agro off them super fast, while sneak seemed fine to me in the dozen or so runs I tried to reproduce it. I guess the "there are certain enemies that have been given "detection checks" automatically even when players are not anywhere near them" could explain it, but I would've expected it to hit me a few times too when I was trying to reproduce it.

 

[Blerkington]

Thanks for your testing. Following this discussion with great interest and will try to get on soon to see if I can reproduce your results and maybe learn something more.

 

[vryxnr]

I mean, I think these trolls might also have an "auto detect if you're close enough and they're facing you, regardless of your stealth scores" ... at least it seems that way when I run around there trying to see how close I can get while stealthed. Thus sometimes you can be not actually touching them, but if they're looking in your general direction you'll still get aggro regardless of your hide and move silent. Add on this permanent over time bonuses, and this player who sometimes enjoys seeing how few enemies I need to kill to complete a quest, is very very sad.

 

[Mindos]

I thoroughly disapprove of this entire mechanic, especially with it never decaying over time.

Did we throughly test this never decay theory? Maybe detection does decay, but it takes an absurd amount of time to shed off?

 

[J1NG]

Did we throughly test this never decay theory? Maybe detection does decay, but it takes an absurd amount of time to shed off?

I'll have a look on that another point. But in the mean time, here's a singled out Troll. Detected after a while. Lost aggro via DD. Went back, instant detection. Left, went back with Invis and all was fine. Lost invis and once in cone of detection, instant detection again.

J1NG

 

[J1NG]

Did we throughly test this never decay theory? Maybe detection does decay, but it takes an absurd amount of time to shed off?

Just did the test now.

10 minutes after they got enough Spot to see me. I DD'd out to lose aggro. The Shaman with them who did not gain enough bonus yet was unable to spot me (yet). I moved to the melee/scout Trolls and they were able to spot me instantly (red eye) there was no detection attempt; it was flat detection ready to fight.

So that should confirm there is no Spot bonus fall off/decay for enemies.

J1NG

 

[Mindos]

So that should confirm there is no Spot bonus fall off/decay for enemies.

Well, I mean, it could decay but be so broken that it takes days instead of minutes. LOL (insert star trek 2 quote here)

Also, I think the cone of detection in front of enemies is larger/longer than what we were told.

 

[J1NG]

Well, I mean, it could decay but be so broken that it takes days instead of minutes. LOL (insert star trek 2 quote here)

Also, I think the cone of detection in front of enemies is larger/longer than what we were told.

Agreed on both points.

But I will note that I've been spotting different new anomolies over in A Sharn Welcome as well with regards to enemies keeping aggro and detection with parts related to what's been found here.

So I suspect that there was a recent unannounced change to things that either are not complete, should not have been deployed until the rest was deployed, or is entirely an unintended outcome from pending changes.

I suspect the latter (because if Invis'd you're supposed to have Blindness/Concealment detection checks on enemy attacks against you but clearly we do not at this point and it was something the Devs said should be there), but In any event. Bad news for Stealth.

J1NG

 

[Blerkington]

I just spent some time in Gateway playing with the first three trolls just to get a better sense of how shedding aggro works now.

It is currently possible to shed aggro just by putting enough distance between yourself and the pursuers even without ddoor. And once you've shed aggro, you do not regain it by leaving stealth. In my view that is a significant improvement over the old system where pursuers would continue passing alarm to each other if close enough leading to an indefinitely prolonged search. So that seems like a win for common sense and server resource consumption.

What I'm not so happy about is how far you have to get from monsters to escape. They will chase our position very accurately at full movement speed. For a character with movement speed bonuses and a leap like the one in the SD tree and/or access to ddoor it seems okay. But if you are lacking these things, like the vast majority of stealth builds playing in heroics, you will find it much harder if not impossible to get far enough away for the chase to break off.

I've said before I think the system should offer a way to shed aggro that doesn't require spells, dragonmarks or ED abilities. For this to work also for non-capped characters without all the tools we have at cap there might have to be either some reduction in the distance we have to put between us and the pursuer, or for the pursuer's chase should be a little more meandering as if it is actually searching rather than the guided missile approach we have now.

I haven't been able to work out exactly how much distance has to be between us and the pursuer for the search to break off but it seems kind of large and will definitely be a problem in some maps. I'm not convinced this is an acceptable outcome either - that in some maps you just don't get enough room to frustrate a chase. Maybe for smaller maps the break off distance should scale downwards too.

Two more interesting things about monster behaviour after they break off their chase are they do not return to their original position once you've escaped them and they no longer have idle animations where they move around a little bit and sometimes change their facing. I couldn't say if this is true for all monsters but it was the case for the ones I tested.

 

[Blerkington]

Just did the test now.

10 minutes after they got enough Spot to see me. I DD'd out to lose aggro. The Shaman with them who did not gain enough bonus yet was unable to spot me (yet). I moved to the melee/scout Trolls and they were able to spot me instantly (red eye) there was no detection attempt; it was flat detection ready to fight.

So that should confirm there is no Spot bonus fall off/decay for enemies.

J1NG

I tried this too and the monsters behaved the way you described. When I approached them again in stealth they would detect me automatically.

After shedding aggro a second time, going invisible AND back into stealth they could not detect me anymore when I came back. Not even after removing invisibility. So it seems like some sort of reset occurs by using both stealth and invisibility.

See if you find the same thing. I think something is a bit broken here as it makes little sense this should help. None of them were champions with true seeing so that might be worth investigating too.

 

[Nokowi]

We have these discussion before about what doesn't work for stealth players but in that past that hasn't always caused devs to adjust their design.

If they really just don't want players sneaking for too long they could do something like
- base spot and listen DC's set by elite setting.
- every 1 second in stealth the DC goes up by 1x reaper setting
- timer and DC increase resets to base (elite setting) save DC's when you leave stealth (with normal agro check outside of stealth)
- a clear timer for how long you have been in stealth (with indicator that time is almost up)
- at 10, 15 or 20 sec (dev choice) you are removed from stealth and get agro as if you were a normal player not in stealth
- they can keep some existing design like a variable component to DC
- no other more complex increases
- all other forms of movement break stealth (wings, leap, tumble, etc) [sorry, these will inevitably break game design]

The only counter to keep track of is how long you have been in stealth. When a check is required it is adjusted by how long you have been in stealth. Players would find some places they can sneak past and find spots where they have to fight. If there happens to be some content for which stealth bypasses everything and devs feel it is becoming a problem they can adjust base DC's of that quest or increase the variable component of the quest DC's so failures can happen.

1. Simple to implement
2. Stable
3. Player stealth scores matter
4. Player choices with respect to moving in and out of stealth matter (that means again making non-detection a pre-req for assassinate)
5. Even new/undergeared players can get utility out of the design

Obviously devs will have already invested in a solution so there is no need to shoot down what you don't like with this 60-seconds-of-thought proposal. The purpose of the post is think about what works for players, what is stable design, and what keeps the server load to a minimum. A good design really doesn't need to be that complex.

Stealthy builds (assassin, etc) might have a longer max timer and faster sneak ability - limiting what non-stealth builds can do with respect to stealth mechanics and breaking the game design while still letting them utilize the stealth mechanic. Non-stealth builds would never be able to break the game for stealth players because they always have the bigger limitations.

If devs were thinking ahead these would all be scalable: (base DC, variable DC), (amount of time allowed in stealth, and the scaling factor from reaper setting) with the first two adjustable per quest and the second two applied to all quests.

 

[Br4d]

Level 11 pure Rogue with Hide/Move Silently 38 got to the JoK entrance with just two fights on Elite (level 11 quest). The first pack which I could not avoid without a noisemaker and the soothsayers at the entrance to the JoK instance.

I did get instant alert of all the mobs in the first pack when I was spotted and had to pound them down but no other mobs alerted until I got to the required fight.

I just stayed as far away as I could and avoided passing in front of a facing mob. Took two waits of a few seconds for mobs to turn around and present their backs.

This feels like it's working as intended and I think I could have gotten just the required fight with a noisemaker and potentially even with a Glitterdust trap after alert as the alerted mobs wandered in the dust as I moved to the required fight and finished.

Edit: Original post was 6:46.

Stayed at entrance for 5 minutes and no additional aggro. Did not use Invis pot at any point and only came out of Sneak for the fight at the first pack and the soothsayers.

I was not spotted by the trolls by the ravine despite a champ among them. Never got close enough to trigger eyes over them although I had the eye over myself until I was well away from them.