What's the best way to make arcane casters relevant at end game again?

[pirotessa]

For all the folks out there who are still having problems understanding the issue, let's do a thought experiment.

Let's imagine you and a friend want to run a fairly challenging raid ...say R3 Vipers...you have a solid tank, your buddy has a solid healer...you want to take the first 10 pugs.

Scenario 1: 9 Barbarians and a melee Paladin. You think..."this might work"

Scenario 2: 10 Inquisitive (class is irrelevant). You think... "Should be easy"

Scenario 3: 5 Sorcerer, 4 caster Wizards, and a random Warlock. You think... "I wonder what I can find on Netflix?"

And everyone wonders what is the point since you're not guaranteed reaper bonuses on raid gear so you're wasting more time/effort for most likely no rewards...but that's another topic

 

[Anurakh]

Over simple.

Not all weapon users are the same, and there is a very clear line between melee and ranged. But who knows, that's how the Devs roll when it comes to nerfs after all. We've had threads like this for over a year now though without anything new bye way of argument, just the same pros and cons on both sides repeated to fade every few weeks. So I'm not really surprised nothing has changed.

We've provided more than enough arguments for developers to improve the caster situation. The best proof is how casters have almost disappeared from the endgame and become mere extras in raids, to the point that even in LH raids, when there are multiple casters in the group, access to more casters is often closed or people start worrying about the visibility of the termination.

The situation speaks for itself.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

We've had threads like this for over a year now though without anything new bye way of argument, just the same pros and cons on both sides repeated to fade every few weeks. So I'm not really surprised nothing has changed.

Not quite true... We've had a few inquis adjustments that probably didn't go far enough, some direct/indirect warlock buffs, and we got wildmage last year. Obviously SSG is currently busy with the transfer/expansion atm, so I wouldn't expect balance changes right now anyway.
Also, if people are still running wizards and falconry sorcs, I can see why they would think casters do no dps

 

[Anurakh]

Not quite true... We've had a few inquis adjustments that probably didn't go far enough, some direct/indirect warlock buffs, and we got wildmage last year. Obviously SSG is currently busy with the transfer/expansion atm, so I wouldn't expect balance changes right now anyway.
Also, if people are still running wizards and falconry sorcs, I can see why they would think casters do no dps

I play wizard, but it's not built solely for DC. Still, wizards need help with DPS. Or weapon users need a server nerf, one of two things.

My Sorc and Druid aren't DC casters, and I still think the same. Casters are way behind. The nerf in R7+ just to magic is absurd. It should be either for everyone or for no one.

And if casters can't have good epic strikes, why can melee players?

 

[DBZ]

Debuffs they could over haul first blood and add some new epic legendary feats that aren't useless

 

[Fizban]

It's cute that you think 110 DC is a very high DC.

And you have no idea how much damage weapon users do these days. A wizard's DPS is trash compared to both melee and ranged.

And I've played with your wizard. No, Fizban, you don't have a good dps, not even for a wizard, and you don't have a high DC.

It's cure that you think you're cute. I know there are players that can get higher than 110 and mine depending on buffs can get to 120 which I know is still not the highest. What I do know is that 110 or so DCs is enough on R10 because I have prooved it many times.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

We've provided more than enough arguments for developers to improve the caster situation. The best proof is how casters have almost disappeared from the endgame and become mere extras in raids, to the point that even in LH raids, when there are multiple casters in the group, access to more casters is often closed or people start worrying about the visibility of the termination.

The situation speaks for itself.

Yes but folks provided those arguments over a year ago is my point, which encountered the same rebuttals. If nothing has changed, what makes them think simple repetition will help?

It may simply have been the server and times I was on, but the only exclusions I've seen in LFMs for raids in years was one last week which was for ranged DPS only.

I've seen plenty of LFMs with looking for a tank or healer, but nothing like "no casters". Any groups I've been in haven't ever had any restrictions unless a spot was, again, reserved for a tank nor healer. YMMV of course, I can only relay what I've seen. Or not, to be more precise.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

I play wizard, but it's not built solely for DC. Still, wizards need help with DPS. Or weapon users need a server nerf, one of two things.

My Sorc and Druid aren't DC casters, and I still think the same. Casters are way behind. The nerf in R7+ just to magic is absurd. It should be either for everyone or for no one.

And if casters can't have good epic strikes, why can melee players?

FWIW I completely agree most epic strikes are pretty average at best. And I'd also agree that tends to impact casters unduly. I'm with you on that, at least.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

Not quite true... We've had a few inquis adjustments that probably didn't go far enough, some direct/indirect warlock buffs, and we got wildmage last year. Obviously SSG is currently busy with the transfer/expansion atm, so I wouldn't expect balance changes right now anyway.
Also, if people are still running wizards and falconry sorcs, I can see why they would think casters do no dps

Yeah, that's a fair nuance.

Only issue is take is with "probably"!

 

[Necrodancer]

Casters would need a massive overhaul from the ground up. People have provided plenty of reasonable point ranging from poor enhancement trees to spell balance and usage.

Jack Jarvis has a point though (and I disagree plenty with what he wrote). Players have been asking, demanding and begging to have their concerns addressed, if in this couple of years (or was it more?) we didn't get as much of a dev even glancing or chiming in to give the faintest of hope....why do you people keep this up?

Casters are the dragon touched parallel to classes. Sure, they are there but you don't exactly craft a dragon touched armor and expect to be "competitive" now, do you? Wizzies and sorcs are just extra grind for completionist right now, nothing more.

 

[Teh_Troll]

It's cure that you think you're cute. I know there are players that can get higher than 110 and mine depending on buffs can get to 120 which I know is still not the highest. What I do know is that 110 or so DCs is enough on R10 because I have prooved it many times.

"Tell me you have no clue about playing a caster without telling me you have no clue about playing a caster."

 

[Ying]

It's cure that you think you're cute. I know there are players that can get higher than 110 and mine depending on buffs can get to 120 which I know is still not the highest. What I do know is that 110 or so DCs is enough on R10 because I have prooved it many times.

110 DC is *ok* in older content until a Despair Reaper shows up. Newer content like Myth Drannor demands higher DCs and 69 Spell Pen. Wizards can get 135+ DCs.

Wizard damage is meh. You can get decent Negative Spellpower and crit, but some mobs like constructs are immune. Wizards, like some other arcane casters, need an immunity stripping ability. One day we'll see the Cursekeeper ED that Tonquin hinted at.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

And one day they'll fix Magic Fa... Oh, faggeddaboudit.

 

[Ying]

spending 33 APs just for +25% comp HP, 5% quality HP and Mark the Prey? No thanks. (so 30% more HP tops)

Expand your mind and look at the larger picture. The build is beefy enough to tank, and that's the point. You combine a tank and instakill into one role, which means it's never useless. This approach is nothing new. It's been viable since Feywild and I played it for many lives. The current version looks like this:

PDK Sorc 18/FvS 2

== Defense ==
4296hps
245prr
100mrr w/ evasion
26 Dodge
221 Fort
242 Hamp

== DC Casting ==
114 Cha
129 Necro
125 Illusion
117 Enchant
117 Conjuration
114 Bird DC

== Healing ==
946 Positive sp (before metas)
59% Crit Chance
75% Crit Damage
Close wounds, Healing Pillar and Cure Mod Mass SLA

== Utility Breakdown ==
Timestop (100% damage)
For Cormyr (+52 damage)
EA Consecrated Timbers (-5 AC/PRR/MRR)
EA Shadows Upon Us (-5AC/PRR/MRR)
SD Darkness (-9PRR/MRR)
SD Shadowloss (-5PRR/MRR)
Falconry Expose Weakness (-50% Fort)
Falconry Mark the Prey (10% damage)

 

[Balvix]

Did you remember the time when casters were in a very bad place 10 years ago? They were tasked with Haste and GH, and just mass hold for the melees that DPS the mobs. Did you remember that period before the DOTS and level 9 damage spells were created? Casters was in a very bad spot for a few years bad when Shroud was new; no epic levels, and level 16-20 was the end game. Non of the so called epic dungeons monsters were instant killable, and everything was death warded at start.... very bad time. And of course, we have now: subpar damage. It's not god-like that we're asking, we just ask that we have a spot or role on a raid that's more than R1... not just get outright rejected... and of course, not so squishy.... In D&D, casters are definitely not like this as we have in DDO. DDO has deviated so much from D&D and it has made playing casters unfun; and let me not mention about the lag. Its mega un-fun on top of that. At least in lag melees can usually tank them no problem; but casters, dead without moving.

Also, let's not forget other casters like warlocks, favored souls. Warlocks some of them are build to just pew-pew, and their pew-pew damage is just pathetic. Their instant kills are also bad if they build for pew-pew or ES. There were like at least 5 nerfs on warlock and two nerfs on favored souls. Previously they had infinite wings, now they are just 5. The Angel of Vengeance core nerfed from caster levels. If one is built for being in the Beacon tree, they can't even solo R1 dungeons for leveling up. That's pathetic! For a melee, no such problems except maybe pure tanks.

Ah yes, here we go diving in to the furthest of history to bolster the argument that casters suck atm. They don't, they haven't for a very long time. They aren't top of the heap atm, and that hurts people that got used to roflstomping almost all content at max difficulty. Even back 10 years ago, I loved running a sorc, sure I passed out buffs, but I also had plenty of dps to kill mobs, anyone who was relegated to simply a basic buffer didn't know how to build or possibly play a caster. I just got done with a fvs life, I did fine, I wasnt the number 1 killer, but i was able to kill and stun a lot of mobs. Boss dps was an issue, ill grant you that, but thats why I brought friends. Im currently running alchemist, and plan to run a sorc life in a few days. Maybe ill experience what everyone is complaining about but about 2 months ago I ran a sorc life and things seemed fine, nobody told me I couldn't join their raid, r1 or otherwise, and when I ran r10 my spells still did plenty of damage, the only issue i had was that I'm lazy and refuse to constantly purchase toolkits from the store to adjust my sentient jewels so my dc's weren't exactly up to the challenge.

 

[Balvix]

What's wrong with taking hits? That's what melees are meant to do. Right now, casters don't even have a spot on a raid.

Where did I complain about taking hits? And I'm calling malarkey on the whole "casters don't even have a spot on a raid" baloney. I have never been denied a spot in a raid just because I'm running a caster, of any sort.

 

[Balvix]

And you know what's bad for lag and dungeon ethics? Often those fast sprinters run ahead and don't kill any monsters and leave the monsters looking around for them causing extreme lag for the entire server; and those monsters killing those other squishier party members that didn't sprint as fast as them. They just want to run to the end boss and kill that end boss as fast as possible...

This also irritates the crap out of me. I really don't understand why people post or join groups and do this. If you want to show off your toon, make a video, if you want to solo a dungeon then go for it, don't add other people and act like a jerk. I can usually survive when people do this, but I quite often see others getting crushed by this.

 

[Balvix]

Expand your mind and look at the larger picture. The build is beefy enough to tank, and that's the point. You combine a tank and instakill into one role, which means it's never useless. This approach is nothing new. It's been viable since Feywild and I played it for many lives. The current version looks like this:

PDK Sorc 18/FvS 2

== Defense ==
4296hps
245prr
100mrr w/ evasion
26 Dodge
221 Fort
242 Hamp

== DC Casting ==
114 Cha
129 Necro
125 Illusion
117 Enchant
117 Conjuration
114 Bird DC

== Healing ==
946 Positive sp (before metas)
59% Crit Chance
75% Crit Damage
Close wounds, Healing Pillar and Cure Mod Mass SLA

== Utility Breakdown ==
Timestop (100% damage)
For Cormyr (+52 damage)
EA Consecrated Timbers (-5 AC/PRR/MRR)
EA Shadows Upon Us (-5AC/PRR/MRR)
SD Darkness (-9PRR/MRR)
SD Shadowloss (-5PRR/MRR)
Falconry Expose Weakness (-50% Fort)
Falconry Mark the Prey (10% damage)

I might give this a try, it looks fun

 

[Balvix]

110 DC is *ok* in older content until a Despair Reaper shows up. Newer content like Myth Drannor demands higher DCs and 69 Spell Pen. Wizards can get 135+ DCs.

Wizard damage is meh. You can get decent Negative Spellpower and crit, but some mobs like constructs are immune. Wizards, like some other arcane casters, need an immunity stripping ability. One day we'll see the Cursekeeper ED that Tonquin hinted at.

Yeah, I kinda agree with this, wizard damage is meh, but its at the top end of meh. I should consider this when formulating my arguments, I have been mainly thinking of sorcs this entire time. I did a fvs life recently, and it wasn't too bad, it wasn't amazing but it wasn't bad either, I haven't been on a warlock in a while, so ill have to do a life to see if its as meh as the wizard.

 

[Bobbryan2]

Yeah, I kinda agree with this, wizard damage is meh, but its at the top end of meh. I should consider this when formulating my arguments, I have been mainly thinking of sorcs this entire time. I did a fvs life recently, and it wasn't too bad, it wasn't amazing but it wasn't bad either, I haven't been on a warlock in a while, so ill have to do a life to see if its as meh as the wizard.

Who does worse damage than wizards?