What's the best way to make arcane casters relevant at end game again?

[Balvix]

Who does worse damage than wizards?

Kobolds

 

[Bobbryan2]

Kobolds

Seriously, though. You said they were top of the meh. Who's the meh under them?

 

[Balvix]

Seriously, though. You said they were top of the meh. Who's the meh under them?

You misinterpret what I said. What i said was they are at the top end of meh, not top of the meh. I'm not comparing them to other toons like you're wanting I'm looking at meh as a scale, and judging them in that way. If you're wanting to discuss casters and wizards in a rated scale, we could do that but that's not what I was doing here.

 

[Gwydion Telcontar]

I would be ok with this, the 50% anyways. I don't want people to quit over losing their ubertoons and feeling like they have to run something they dislike just to be competitive. However, I really don't want to go back to the days where casters made melee absolutely useless besides hp sponges to take the hits meant for casters.

Wait. Why not? At least both class types would have a role. Who cares if melee is just an hp sponge for casters?

Currently melee fills both roles. That isn’t good for the game.

 

[Tyrande]

Who does worse damage than wizards?

I would say probably warlocks because they don't have the level IX burst damage spells like Lightning Strike, Iceberg, Acid Well.

 

[Tyrande]

Ah yes, here we go diving in to the furthest of history to bolster the argument that casters suck atm. They don't, they haven't for a very long time. They aren't top of the heap atm, and that hurts people that got used to roflstomping almost all content at max difficulty. Even back 10 years ago, I loved running a sorc, sure I passed out buffs, but I also had plenty of dps to kill mobs, anyone who was relegated to simply a basic buffer didn't know how to build or possibly play a caster. I just got

I never said casters should not pass out buffs. Its just like you saying that melees shouldn't be just meat bags. But just be a fully equipped caster like you said just to pass out buffs? Or a fully equipped melee just be HP sponges? Which one makes sense more. You tell me.

done with a fvs life, I did fine, I wasnt the number 1 killer, but i was able to kill and stun a lot of mobs. Boss dps was an issue, ill grant you that, but thats why I brought

Did I ever say anything about that casters should solo everything?

friends. Im currently running alchemist, and plan to run a sorc life in a few days. Maybe ill experience what everyone is complaining about but about 2 months ago I ran a sorc life and things seemed fine, nobody told me I couldn't join their raid, r1 or otherwise, and when I ran r10 my spells still did plenty of damage, the only issue i had was that I'm lazy and refuse to constantly purchase toolkits from the store to adjust my sentient jewels so my dc's weren't exactly up to the challenge.

Well, good for you that you're trying out several different kinds of casters. I would have just play alts in your case. No, R1 Raids are just fine. Things get hairy when there are R4 raids, R5 raids, R7 raids... it's in those raids that raid leaders don't like casters in the party.

By R10 I do not mean R10 raids like Legendary Tempest Spine. I meant something else.

Like someone else said above for an example: R3 Den of Vipers.

1 tank 1 healer, and 10 PUGs.

PUG Group #1: 9 barbarians and 1 paladin
PUG Group #2: 10 inquisitives
PUG Group #3: 5 sorcerers, 4 druids, and 1 wizard.

Which group would complete the raid first? Probably the inquisitives.

You can also take another example for R1 LVOD. The melees would complete them first and sometimes even flawlessly.

 

[Tyrande]

Where did I complain about taking hits? And I'm calling malarkey on the whole "casters don't even have a spot on a raid" baloney. I have never been denied a spot in a raid just because I'm running a caster, of any sort.

I saw LFMs out there with LVOD or LLOB R5+ raids on Orien advertised as "No casters". Its not Baloney.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

I saw LFMs out there with LVOD or LLOB R5+ raids on Orien advertised as "No casters". Its not Baloney.

Firstly, I'm not doubting it, but I've never seen anything similar. I have recently seen ranged only raids at range R1-R6, over a much wider range of raids than those two, which I found surprising and disappointing due to it being so rare to see such exclusions for me.

Secondly, I'm not sure R5+ raiding is in any way representative of the wider population or thus worthwhile as any game balance argument point.

Most raids, almost exclusively in my experience at least, are run on H or R1. If we were seeing exclusions there, that would be a more significant example.

I'm not knocking the push raiders here. TBH It's a part of the game I'd quite like to have a go at if the opportunity arises, but it's also a very small demographic, and IMO is no place to balance the game around.

 

[Synalon]

I've definitely seen raids advertised with no more casters requested, or dps only. And been in groups where we dropped the difficulty because of too many casters.

For raids I think they mainly need to seriously re-evaluate their design. And, do a spell pass.

 

[Anurakh]

In LH raid lfms, I've seen further casters blocked because there were already "too many." But an entire raid of weapon DPS plus a tank isn't that many weapon DPS.

And yes, lowering the difficulty because there are too many casters isn't unusual either. And I'm not talking about high-reaper raids. I'm talking about going from R1 to Hard or from Hard to Normal.

Enough with the sophistry, please, trying to sustain the unsustainable.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

In LH raid ous, I've seen further casters blocked because there were already "too many." But an entire raid of weapon DPS plus a tank isn't that many weapon DPS.

And yes, lowering the difficulty because there are too many casters isn't unusual either. And I'm not talking about high-reaper raids. I'm talking about going from R1 to Hard or from Hard to Normal.

Enough with the sophistry, please, trying to sustain the unsustainable.

It's not sophistry, certainly not on my part. I didn't bring high R raids for casters into the argument here. I'm just explaining my experience. Clearly that differs from yours, which is fair enough.

I'll stand by the point that high R raids are not sufficiently representative for game balance decisions.

I also don't understand how the R7+ caster nerf or applying similar to melee would have anything to do with caster exclusion in H or R1 raids, as it has zero effect there?

Nor is it in my view unsustainable, in fact the evidence would suggest quite the opposite, given virtually nothing has changed in over a year of these threads.

 

[Monkey_Archer]

Properly built dps casters can absolutely fill a dps role in R1 raids, or up to R6 if you are willing to bring pots. The main reason groups decline multiple casters is because the average pug caster is hot garbage. Perhaps Thrane/Shadowdale will be different, but the average caster on Thelanis was a 0 dps wizard that didn't even know how to instakill...

Just because most players have abandoned dps casting due to the r7+ nerfs doesn't mean you can't still build one for raiding. Obviously falconry sorc pseudo-tanks and pale masters aren't going to do dps, nor should they, but a properly build dps sorc/druid/alch is always welcome in low skull raiding.

 

[Anurakh]

The problem already exists in the low difficulties of raids. And people are bringing up high-reaper raids because other people like you are crying about melee toons in high-reaper raids. I mean, you complain about melees in high-reaper raids, but when it comes to casters, it's not a good argument.

Raids are poorly designed, period.

And casters need an unnerf, or weapon users need a severe nerf. One of two things.

 

[Anurakh]

Properly built dps casters can absolutely fill a dps role in R1 raids, or up to R6 if you are willing to bring pots. The main reason groups decline multiple casters is because the average pug caster is hot garbage. Perhaps Thrane/Shadowdale will be different, but the average caster on Thelanis was a 0 dps wizard that didn't even know how to instakill...

Just because most players have abandoned dps casting due to the r7+ nerfs doesn't mean you can't still build one for raiding. Obviously falconry sorc pseudo-tanks and pale masters aren't going to do dps, nor should they, but a properly build dps sorc/druid/alch is always welcome in low skull raiding.

The average pug build is garbage, weapon user or caster. But with garbage weapon users there isn't a problem, and with casters there is a problem. Because casters are in a way worse situation than weapon users. End of argument.

 

[Neo]

people are getting denied from LH raid LFMs because of their class? where is that happening?

 

[Monkey_Archer]

The average pug build is garbage, weapon user or caster. But with garbage weapon users there isn't a problem, and with casters there is a problem. Because casters are in a way worse situation than weapon users. End of argument.

Actually, I'd rather take a mediocre caster than a mediocre paladin in defender stance that pulls the boss every 4 seconds... At least they would contribute something, rather than detract...

 

[Anurakh]

Actually, I'd rather take a mediocre caster than a mediocre paladin in defender stance that pulls the boss every 4 seconds... At least they would contribute something, rather than detract...

Very good, but it's not what the pug caster player normally experiences. It's perfectly fine to have a pug with all weapon users plus a tank—even healers are optional—but it's rarely fine to have one with all casters plus the tank. And if there is one, the completion time (if it goes that far) will be much longer than in the first case.

There's room for dps in raids. The room for magic is entirely optional and superfluous, completely replaceable by more weapon users.

It's bad raid design, period.

 

[Raedier]

Actually, I'd rather take a mediocre caster than a mediocre paladin in defender stance that pulls the boss every 4 seconds... At least they would contribute something, rather than detract...

But a mediocre inquisitive/repeater build can still pump out 4mil DPM playing with 2 braincells, that’s the issue, while casters and melee aren’t even getting close.

 

[Jack Jarvis Esquire]

The problem already exists in the low difficulties of raids. And people are bringing up high-reaper raids because other people like you are crying about melee toons in high-reaper raids. I mean, you complain about melees in high-reaper raids, but when it comes to casters, it's not a good argument.

Raids are poorly designed, period.

And casters need an unnerf, or weapon users need a severe nerf. One of two things.

Hang on. Folks are allowed to complain about casters in high reaper raids but not about melees?

Sorry. Just no.

Either both complaints are valid or neither are. I'm prepared to go either way, but on balance, I don't think high R raids are sufficiently representative for either source of complaint, including my own. But if so, it surely starts with nerfing the Uzi's IMO.

Again. The high R raids argument wasn't introduced by me. I responded to it by citing what I'd seen personally a week ago. So that's 180 from how you've set that out Anu. And the same argument has been used in multiple threads before too, well before I had anything to "complain" about. So how does that make sense?

What effect does the R7+ caster nerf have on H or R1 raids? It's zero, surely?

 

[mikarddo]

Properly built dps casters can absolutely fill a dps role in R1 raids, or up to R6 if you are willing to bring pots. The main reason groups decline multiple casters is because the average pug caster is hot garbage. Perhaps Thrane/Shadowdale will be different, but the average caster on Thelanis was a 0 dps wizard that didn't even know how to instakill...

Just because most players have abandoned dps casting due to the r7+ nerfs doesn't mean you can't still build one for raiding. Obviously falconry sorc pseudo-tanks and pale masters aren't going to do dps, nor should they, but a properly build dps sorc/druid/alch is always welcome in low skull raiding.

I am curious. Can you build a dps caster that does well as dps in R1 raids _and_ still works well in R10 groups where you most likely will need to rely more on dc casting?

If you can build such a sorc I would love to see how as I would like to remake one of my chars as a sorc. But if it cannot both do R1 raids and R10 groups well I dont see the point.