What's the best way to make arcane casters relevant at end game again?

[Guntango]

Unfortunately havent had the opportunity to group up with Dom, he is always in a guild I dont run with in hardcore.

I am sure Dom would know exactly what to do to make Arcane casters relevant again, and he would be able to do it without personal bias because he doesnt need any additional boosts like most of the other idealists beneath him. For example Dom doesnt care about inquisitors as it is beneath him, unlike all the other needy complainers. It is easy for the public to see the true great one from all the other pretenders.

I'd suggest calming your approach a bit, pretending you don't care, like dropping the "true great one" bit when you invite him to dinner. Do you date much?

 

[The Narc2]

I'd suggest calming your approach a bit, pretending you don't care, like dropping the "true great one" bit when you invite him to dinner. Do you date much?

Lol i have no idea what you are talking about, such gibberish will get you nowhere in this discussion about arcane casters and how to make them better.

 

[Pano]

"Don't cast spells" How do you call that a wizard LOL? Might as well play a rogue or dark hunter that dual kukris (MD TON Maw) and that the T5 Vistani, T3 Harper and backup with rogue trees/ranged weapon and can disarm traps (utility) too and has improved evasion and more DPS (sneak attacks) and dodge LOL.

I would call that wizard an Eldritch knight probably. Its a good build actually because of the imbues and healing from death auras.

Also that was a satire.

 

[Guntango]

Lol i have no idea what you are talking about, such gibberish will get you nowhere in this discussion about arcane casters and how to make them better.

EXACTLY. Use that, perfect.

 

[Bobbryan2]

I would call that wizard an Eldritch knight probably. Its a good build actually because of the imbues and healing from death auras.

Also that was a satire.

Was it satire? I mean... that IS what I would do for a wizard if I rolled one up. It's cheeky, but it's also literally true. (Ok, maybe not literally... I ain't going TWF right now, he's only using one of those kukris.)

 

[The Narc2]

EXACTLY. Use that, perfect.

Nice try and epic fail!

 

[Fizban]

The intent is for arcane casters to have competitive magic DPS compared to melees in those raids;
or at least a role and spot on the 12 person raids to be useful; not sitting on the bench twisting their thumbs.

Arcane casters do have competitive DPS as compared to melee. A caster doesn't have to be able to do the same amount of damage to a raid boss but I think it is close enough. Just like a melee doesn't have to be competitive with an arcane caster with crowd control, kill counts, and some buffs. DDO (D&D by extension) has multiple characters with different roles.

Thanks what makes DDO and D&D themed games so special.

 

[Tyrande]

Arcane casters do have competitive DPS as compared to melee. A caster doesn't have to be able to do the same amount of damage to a raid boss but I think it is close enough. Just like a melee doesn't have to be competitive with an arcane caster with crowd control, kill counts, and some buffs. DDO (D&D by extension) has multiple characters with different roles.

Thanks what makes DDO and D&D themed games so special.

Melees do have more effective CC: see DL (Dragon Lords). That's why arcane caster does not a raid spot or role in those raids. Back then when shroud first started in 2009 arcane casters were tasked with haste, rage, blur and greater heroism; now even that is not needed so they have no use in those push raids. They didn't create a spell called energy immunity to make arcane casters with those buffs. They are more willing to take bards LOL because at least they have buffs like songs that cannot be removed via debuffs.

I do not think the caster DPS is competitive. Please re-check your math. Do you call average 500->~2000 damage a spell with 10k-40k spell critical damage competitive to a melee crit damage of 500,000 to 800,000 and average 4 attacks of 3000->10000 damage in the same time frame? You must be joking. They are not even in the same ball park figure.

 

[Ying]

Arcane casters do have competitive DPS as compared to melee. A caster doesn't have to be able to do the same amount of damage to a raid boss but I think it is close enough.

What game are you playing? 'Cause it's not DDO. Take 10 nukers with a tank and healer into R1 VOD and do the same with 10 melee. Melee will finish the raid in a fraction of the time.

 

[GrizzlyOso]

I’m not going to read everything so this might’ve been mentioned. Obviously the r7 nerf was a dumb band aid at the time, we told them at the time, it’s still dumb, rip it off.

But also they need to balance single target or dot effects versus aoe. Currently spell casters mostly use aoe spells on both single target and groups. So if you buff their “general” dps, you’re just making them able to completely wipe entire dungeons , like it was before this current melee/inquis dominance.

Give casters decent single target options that are both good dps and also efficient.

 

[Synalon]

One other thing they could do to help is to make buffs worthwhile again. There are a bunch of buffs that could do with a rework. Removing MCL from many of them would be a helpful start, e.g. Protection from Energy...maybe with the numbers also increased a bit.

Or, the Bull's Strength etc. ability line of spells - these spells now modify skill rolls in 5e. They could give a bonus to their associated skill checks that scales with caster level. Things like that.

Having good buffs would help bring back the support role that has fallen by the wayside. Maybe they could even add some totally new buffs to the game...? Of course, really, all this would need a spell pass. Which I would love to happen, but I'm not holding my breath any time soon.

 

[Guntango]

Balance in this game is challenging to measure. If there were a public DPS meter, you and your party members could gather real-time metrics to help you (and the devs) hone competent builds (and develop what's vital to performance). If there were better/more reliable IT infrastructure, then quicker hands and incremental build choices might provide repeatable and dependable outcomes. I don't see these being addressed in the short term, so we're all (and the devs) left with balancing the game given the tools available now.

First, as the OP pointed out, I see so many different builds leveling without problem or complaint that I don't think this is anything but an endgame discussion.

If you give maxed-out, endgame casters the same DPS power they had before the ham-handed nerfs, I don't think there'd be any good reason to bring most builds into your endgame reaper groups anymore. Two casters who have some healing capability and perhaps a token melee for bosses/agro could crush R10s just fine. If you were in a full group with a great DPS caster or two in their heyday, your new job as a triple completionist maxed out melee with goated boosted gear would be breaking boxes and pulling levers. That's what got us here.

Without giving dps casters so much back that there's no reason to play anything else, I think a measured approach would be to remove the R7 - R10 nerf and make sure every dps caster has a delete mob button (if built properly, of course). Requiring five casts to delete an R10 mob when an adren barb can cut it and two more of their friends in half with one swing will forever perpetuate balance issues.

No, the answer is not to nerf the living spit out of anything remotely fun. Let the barb cut the thing in half, but then, while they're swapping weapons to trans, proc prowess, and rerage, let the caster blow up everything in the next room. It's going to take subtle and nuanced changes to get the balance to feel right (feel the operative word, as there is no proper meter to prove otherwise). My earlier proposed list of detail-oriented players with doctorate-level DDO knowledge contains the right people to help massage those relatively innocuous adjustments into meaningful and noticeable balance change.

This isn't a definitive list; more than half don't have the time for it anyway. But these are the types of players that we need to help the devs build for future growth.

 

[Pilgrim]

It's important to remember that casters do not need to be OPTIMAL for end game content, the goal we are looking for is VIABLE.

The biggest area that casters fail is in raids or bosses where you need sustained single target damage.

To address this issue I think we should focus on damage over time effects (dots). Currently most dots do less damage then single target spells, take longer to do that damage, and sometimes have stacking issues. This makes them unappealing for boss/raid targets for which they are designed for.

I propose a significant restructuring of dots:
- Dots stack has no cap. This would allow people to slowly increase the damage that they can do to bosses while still preventing casters from having significant burst damage damage.
-Dot stacks fade and 1/stack (like arcane pulse). This would allow casters to be able to maintain damage in situations where there attention is elsewhere or brief immunity periods of bosses (like in fire over morgrave).
- Dot stacks are wiped if the player is dead or the boss is unable to target them (like a player fleeing through a DD). This would prevent cheesing.


*The current enhancements in draconic and magister which impact dots could be re-worked to allow increased damage to dots as opposed to increase max stacks.
*There are some dots that would need to be re-worked to allow better functionality with this system, some would need cooldowns adjusted, others would need damage adjusted. We would likely nead to see more dots options as well. The exact details are TBD.

Lastly I want to point out that this caster relevence WAS an issue a long time ago and the solution to this WAS to introduce 3 stacking dots, and it worked! Remember the days before and after this change when before casters where not allowed into (heroic) shroud and after they where?

 

[torkz]

Arcane casters do have competitive DPS as compared to melee. A caster doesn't have to be able to do the same amount of damage to a raid boss but I think it is close enough. Just like a melee doesn't have to be competitive with an arcane caster with crowd control, kill counts, and some buffs. DDO (D&D by extension) has multiple characters with different roles.

Competitive DPS? Have you played fully geared melee and fully geared casters in R10s? (By fully geared, I mean you have taken the time to do the gear tetris to make the character optimal, or at least near optimal...includes filigrees and augments. ) It is not in the same class... Now on R6, sure, it can seem about the same...

And yes, it is okay if different characters have different roles...as long as piker is not the role. Unfortunately, that is close to what arcanes have become in R10 quests and mid-to-high reaper raids. I am obviously exaggerating a little to make a point, but if you don't think there is an issue, you don't spend enough time in R10s on different character types.

 

[EinarMal]

It's important to remember that casters do not need to be OPTIMAL for end game content, the goal we are looking for is VIABLE.

The biggest area that casters fail is in raids or bosses where you need sustained single target damage.

To address this issue I think we should focus on damage over time effects (dots). Currently most dots do less damage then single target spells, take longer to do that damage, and sometimes have stacking issues. This makes them unappealing for boss/raid targets for which they are designed for.

I propose a significant restructuring of dots:
- Dots stack has no cap. This would allow people to slowly increase the damage that they can do to bosses while still preventing casters from having significant burst damage damage.
-Dot stacks fade and 1/stack (like arcane pulse). This would allow casters to be able to maintain damage in situations where there attention is elsewhere or brief immunity periods of bosses (like in fire over morgrave).
- Dot stacks are wiped if the player is dead or the boss is unable to target them (like a player fleeing through a DD). This would prevent cheesing.


*The current enhancements in draconic and magister which impact dots could be re-worked to allow increased damage to dots as opposed to increase max stacks.
*There are some dots that would need to be re-worked to allow better functionality with this system, some would need cooldowns adjusted, others would need damage adjusted. We would likely nead to see more dots options as well. The exact details are TBD.

Lastly I want to point out that this caster relevence WAS an issue a long time ago and the solution to this WAS to introduce 3 stacking dots, and it worked! Remember the days before and after this change when before casters where not allowed into (heroic) shroud and after they where?

I don't think Dots will work at least in quests. Ranged/Melee just kill bosses too fast. You would never get stacks of dots going before the boss dies.

At this point, I am throwing in the towel and switching my main to inquisitive. Pretty much zero movement on this for 2 years and zero dev comments show how much anyone at SSG cares about this.

 

[torkz]

It's important to remember that casters do not need to be OPTIMAL for end game content, the goal we are looking for is VIABLE.

The biggest area that casters fail is in raids or bosses where you need sustained single target damage.

To address this issue I think we should focus on damage over time effects (dots). Currently most dots do less damage then single target spells, take longer to do that damage, and sometimes have stacking issues. This makes them unappealing for boss/raid targets for which they are designed for.

I propose a significant restructuring of dots:
- Dots stack has no cap. This would allow people to slowly increase the damage that they can do to bosses while still preventing casters from having significant burst damage damage.
-Dot stacks fade and 1/stack (like arcane pulse). This would allow casters to be able to maintain damage in situations where there attention is elsewhere or brief immunity periods of bosses (like in fire over morgrave).
- Dot stacks are wiped if the player is dead or the boss is unable to target them (like a player fleeing through a DD). This would prevent cheesing.


*The current enhancements in draconic and magister which impact dots could be re-worked to allow increased damage to dots as opposed to increase max stacks.
*There are some dots that would need to be re-worked to allow better functionality with this system, some would need cooldowns adjusted, others would need damage adjusted. We would likely nead to see more dots options as well. The exact details are TBD.

Lastly I want to point out that this caster relevence WAS an issue a long time ago and the solution to this WAS to introduce 3 stacking dots, and it worked! Remember the days before and after this change when before casters where not allowed into (heroic) shroud and after they where?

Thanks for your comments. I think you have it right. I am also starting to think that improved single target DOTs might go a long way to making casters relevant again. If casters can do meaningful boss damage, then having more than one does not make them a complete drag on the raid.

And I definitely remember a day long ago where arcanes were unwelcome (beyond one) in raids. Not sure of the year exactly, but maybe 2010,2011? My main was a first life (many were) sorc, and I often could not get into Shroud runs because "we already have a caster". If I wanted shroud ingredients, I had to switch to my melee alt and linked my boss beaters, lol. (My melee alt sucked, but he had the boss beaters, so I got in the raid.)

 

[torkz]

I don't think Dots will work at least in quests. Ranged/Melee just kill bosses too fast. You would never get stacks of dots going before the boss dies.

At this point, I am throwing in the towel and switching my main to inquisitive. Pretty much zero movement on this for 2 years and zero dev comments show how much anyone at SSG cares about this.

I agree that *currently" Dots do not work. They need to be revamped. Enhancements, feats, whatever, but something to allow them to ramp up faster and hit harder. They may never be relevant in most quests, but in raids where there is a lengthy boss battle, they could be a mechanism to make arcanes relevant.

To borrow from that other game's meme...we need "MOAR DOTS".

 

[Teh_Troll]

Arcane casters do have competitive DPS as compared to melee.

"Tell me you have no clue about DDO without telling my you have no clue about DDO."

 

[Balvix]

I think you are hearing what you want to hear, because you seem to be missing the point. The problem is not that casters are not the #1 killers (arguably they still are in R1 content, but the margin is now razor thin if it exists at all). A competent caster can always get some trash kills even in R10, but whatever you do could be often done better by martial (ranged or melee) dps...in good part because when you get to the boss, the caster contribution is only a fraction of the what martial DPS is contributing.

And SP management, while worth discussing, is NOT the problem. If it meant being useful, one can always use SP clickies or even SP pots.

The problem is that casters are nearly irrelevant now in harder endgame content. It is an absolute fact that in hard (high reaper) raids, casters are often unnecessary and a drag on the raid if there is more than one.

I don't particularly care what the specific role is...I just want there to be *some* reason to have a caster at cap (other than as an R4 farmer). I would be happy if end game raids actually required a CCer. Unfortunately, that is often just a "nice to have" rather than a "need to have".

That is the issue I hoped we could address in this thread.

Nah, sorry, when you can instakill or cc then instakill 90% of mobs then you are most definitely not irrelevant. Just because you aren't the highest boss dps in the group doesn't make you useless. I still stand by my original post. I don't care if melees are killing things quickly, they aren't killing at instakill speed most of the time. Raids are a different animal, as a caster, you can still instakill a ton of mobs, but you have to actually deal with sp management. I have no problem with this, when im on a caster life, I simply don't salvo nonstop due to shrine constraints. There is no point that I'm missing, I'm simply saying its wrong.

 

[ACJ97F]

Caster: I can't completely destroy groups in all R7+ content, my ego's totally shattered, they hate casters...!!!!!
Everyone Else: You realize everyone has reduced damage, or did you miss 47 memos, every update note, and didn't log in for three years?
Caster: But it's supposed to be about meeeeeeeeee...!!!!!
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