When are the devs gonna fix Shadow Dancer Epic Destiny:

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
I see videos where cooldown on casters are 4 seconds to cast with investment in cooldowns.
Max investment to cooldown means 40% CD reduction. What exactly spells you see? For Weird/Weil, for example, it's must be 36 sec, not 4. ;)

I believe it's only 20-35%(if heavily invested) and most mobs have True Seeing in Reaper 10 so it's effectively 0% dodge.
Your believing is incorrect. 20% Concealment don't need investments at all, it just 50% Displacement from clickies - 30% reaper debuff.
Heavy investment means take (and use!) SD mantle and take T3 Depths of Darkness upgrade, provide +25% stacking Concealment bonus. With +50% Displacement and -30% reaper debuff it's exactly 45% at R10. True Seeing mobs still problem, but it's legit problem, because they is minority, not majority really.
 
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Dragnilar

Dragonborn of Bahamut
I agree Shadow Dancer got gutted way too much.

Not as big of a priority, but, Divine Crusader needs to be revised and given back some of its missing active abilities and the epic moment needs... to be rethought.
 

KylerrTheMajty

Well-known member
Why did you take away Shadow Manipulation and give it to a Range Tree in Shiradi as Beguile Charm(as if they needed more, as it is a safer Ranged toon Epic Destiny) Rogues and stealth melees needed it SO MUCH MORE, to enter into touch range melee styles, which is a very dangerous type of combat, compared to 20 feet away Mass AOE Casters and Range characters.

Why did we loose Consume as a Stealth(Rogue player here) and give it to Casters(even Artificers?) in a WAY better form as (AOE instakill Mass Phantasmal Killer)Weird("WITH" a ONE MINUTE COOLDOWN!) in our own Tree?(I CANNOT EVEN PICK IT FROM MY OWN TREE!) That really sucks; almost every other Tree(Which I CAN PICK!) has Mass Frog, Everything Is Nothing, Cut the Strings, I can even pick Super Greater Ruin!!!,, etc. but not Weird from my OWN TREE?.... and Shadow Dancer gets absolutely nothing, when it had "Somethings" before, what was the logic of that?

We had: Executioner Shot/Strike(only a 30% chance, ONLY A 30% CHANCE, which was a very weak chance) to take out a mob(Now, Rangers DH get an Assassinate), While Casters get: Slay Living, Finger of Death, Power Word Kill, Frog, Mass Frog, Banishments, Phantasmal Killer, etc on SECONDS(<60) for cooldowns. With chances to reduce them to single digit seconds. ?????!!!!!

Even Dire Charge is nice, why wasn't Shadow Dancer given a way to create an AOE CC like Dire Charge? Even Greater Master of Flowers, Fury, Divine Crusaders ALL have, AOE stuns? (No balance at all)

The fact we have to choose Meld as a choice between a Epic Strike and Survivability is bad, as it use to be able to be TOGETHER! That Tree had both, BOTH!
You could of just lowered the (%)Dodge Chance like you did; but keep it separate from the Epic Strike as it has nothing to do with dealing Damage - but EVERYTHING to do with "survivability" as a squishy class. SURVIVABILITY> Epic Strike.

What in Dungeon Realms is Wand and Scroll Mastery doing in Shadow Dancers tree? It was promised to be a Multiplier to Heroic Trees Wand and Scroll Mastery but it isn't(It was Suppose to Stack per your pre-notes) and is a waste of points in that Tree. Unless....unless it can be...

It should of been this(at present but) which would of kept as is BUT added a real positive benefit for Trapmakers:

Sleight of Hand:
Passive: +2/4/6 UMD. +25/50/75% (Stacking)damage and healing of your wands, scrolls and other items that cast spells. Adds +1/2/3 to the save DC's of your offensive wands. (that's fine as an extra but, really needs this as it's merit: )
Active: 1/2/3 points
Sleight of Hand: Traps and Vial Mastery: If you have the Trapmaking Feat: You can make Noisemaker Traps(8 second clicky) or Noisemaker throwing Vials(on exploding they stick to door/wall and make ticking sound), with the ability to place(traps) or throw(Vials) in stealth.
Active:
(Tier 1): If you have the Trapmaking Feat, you can now add your Sneak Attack Dice and Damage to Traps and Veils.
(Tier 2): You can use the higher of Melee or Range Power to Traps and Veils you Throw.
(Tier 3):You can inscribe scrolls as Traps and Alchemical Recipes as Vials.

Suggestions: maybe have specific Alchemical Vials like Mass Suggestion/Confusion, Turn to Frog/Bat, a real Large AOE Tanglefoot a la "Sharn exploding goo"(with DC: Reflex (DC 20 + Character Level + Stat Modifier + Assassinate Bonus)
and Shadow-Thunderstone: Alchemical Vial Trap Attack: 1d6+2 Large AOE Force an damage per character level and dazes in an area. Fort DC (12/16/20 + Character Level + Stat Modifier + Assassinate Bonus).

Anyway you cut it, Melee and as a Rogue(less old Shadow Dancer) is almost extinct and a heavy burden to play, as seen as a very unforgiving playstyle and tedious then ever before. Especially in Upper Reapers getting one shotted now.

The Epic Destiny, Epic Moment puts you in Harms way of HAVING to get swung at and Missed!(You basically become a swinging Pinata target) in order for the Epic Moment to work defensively, so you either turn into a soulstone or you wait another 5 minutes to get extra Sneak attack dice. It is a Very Dangerous Epic Moment to rely on, you either come out of it alive or a soulstone. (Maybe if it had a 10,000HP Unconscious Range or a 30 second Dreamscape 20 second type of invulnerability) Otherwise you get a 5 minute cooldown extra sneak dice....

There should be something to bring down the cooldown of Assassinate (6 second cooldown), Uncanny Dodge(half it's time), an AOE Sap of some sorts.

Please move the Force Caster side of Shadow Dancer to Manus of the Eclipse, where it is more thematically relevant there, as an additional damage type (Force Damage option) to it's already Cold Damage, Negative Damage slim options and synergizes better with it going up the Tree as relevant Caster type options.

Shadow Dancer has to waste useful spots in it's own Tree that does absolutely nothing to it's Melee/Range option, when it has to share with a Caster DC's and other Spell choices, that are completely overlooked at in that spot for Rogue/Stealth players.

Example in Tree:

Core 4: Cut to the Soul: When you cast the spell Trap the Soul, it automatically applies 3 stacks of the Darkness debuff even if the enemy survives the spell.
(Maybe put in instead: "Gain an AOE sap or stun ability.")

Tier 1 (Requires Character Level 20):
Well of Darkness: +30/60/100 Spell Points, Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spell Power
(Put back Tumble through enemies , like it use to be before. Adding in a Stun effect) Could also build/add instead: Create Traps. DC's based off Disable Device score 65%/80%/100% of your Disable Device Skill(Improved Traps Enhancement)

Tier 3 (Requires Character Level 23, 10 points spent in tree)
Shadowdancer Spell Focus: Multiselector:
Shadowdancer Spell Focus Abjuration +1/2/3 Abjuration DCs
Shadowdancer Spell Focus Enchantment +1/2/3 Enchantment DCs
Shadowdancer Spell Focus Illusion +1/2/3 Illusion DCs
Shadowdancer Spell Focus Necromancy +1/2/3 Necromancy DCs
(This should be where Meld into Darkness can be separated and "add" things like Stun, Sap, higher % of the Dodge cap)
Add this instead -
(Passive)Meld into Darkness: Grants you 10% uncapped dodge when attacking or tumbling. Can Tumble through enemies.(GMoF kept it in their Tree!)
Shadowdancer Focus: Multiselector:
Defensive: Add 5/10/15 PRR
Offensive: Your next melee/Range attacks deals +25/50/75% damage.
Crowd Control: Improve Deception(When attacking an enemy cause it to believe it got attacked by another enemy or cower based off of your Bluff score)

Tier 4:
Improved Meld: put another 5% more uncapped Dodge in Meld bringing it up to 15% Dodge.
Improved Depths of Darkness: Your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle gain a stacking 10% Incorporeality and 15% Concealment.


Tier 5 (Requires Character Level 30, 30 points spent in the tree)
Greater Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Spell DCs
Put back Original Consume or a similar ability like Cut the Strings. (It has a 60 second cooldown) A Shadow Dancer version of Cut the Strings.

Shadow Threads:
All monsters within a wide radius around you are forced to be held in place for 10 seconds, cut their existance with any weapon strike or spell at a rate of once per second, instantly killing them. Mirrored by their Shadows after 10 seconds they begin to attack each other for 1 second + 1 extra second per Assassinate bonus, believing they are their own worst enemy, (Will vs DC:20 + Highest Stat Mod + Assassinate)

Side Note:
Tier I's "Stealthy" included "Assassinate" TOGETHER before and now it's split up?
+1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 Hide and Move Silently. Rank 3: Gain the Hide in Plain Sight feat. +2/4/6 to your Assassinate DCs.(they were together before)

This would open up a spot in Tier one to put down "Dance in the Dark": +1/2/3 Sneak Attack Dice
That way you can put back in Tier II "Shadow Manipulation"(Dominate ability with the Slay Living effect at end);
just like Shiradi Champion has "Beguile Charm" in it's Tier II.
(Once again, as a melee character, Shadow Manipulation should be more useful for melees being at a disadvantage than range characters And More So Range AOE Casters.)
Right now this Tree has an identity crisis, a bipolar effect where both sides are an afterthought, when it use to be such a pleasant Tree for Rogues or Stealth players to participate in. All because of Meld into Darkness??? You could of just lowered the dodge% and called it a day and the Tree was still very viable with the stat squish that was done and removed from Trees.
Its very simple they changed but forget to change name of game now it should be "Casters&Reapers Online"
 

Kielbasa

Well-known member
I wish they would give Torc a week to tinker around with all the destinies he did not make during the revamp. Fatesinger, Primal Avatar, and Fury of the Wild are the epic destinies I enjoy the most. The only thing he whiffed on was quick/cutter and non adrenaline side of fury.
 

seph1roth5

Well-known member
A lot of the ED multiselectors are half-crap. Don't know anyone that's taken quick, or the color spray half of shiradi.
 

Jolyma

New member
I did play with the old destiny, and I did miss my Consume, but I do just fine with the new stuff. Had to adjust my thinking a little bit, sure, but I also don't expect gameplay to be a walk in the park, because that's just not fun. I play rogue for the challenge, and because I enjoy being a support type in a party. I am content stabbing things in the back and topping the kill count just as much as I am being able to be the bluffer in the Dryad raid, or the dead person walking the path in Skeletons or stealthed on the laser in Nemesis.

Weird as a spell is blocked if you're not a spell caster. Well, yeah, it's added to the spellbook, it's not a clickie like Mass Frog or any of the others. Weird CAN be taken as Consumed by Shadows, and if you think that reducing a mob's AC to 0 for 12 seconds, with a DC based on your highest ability rather than being limited to INT/CHA/WIS like Weird the spell isn't useful in reaper, I'm not sure what else to say. Rogues are not spellcasters. They gave a different option that benefits a toon sneaking around to balance that.
 

Archaic

Active member
Shadowdancer should have Summon Shadow, Power Word Blind SLA, it's Mantle should include ghoststep which counters tremor sense, maybe a leap of faith kind of clickie that propels the player forward but retaining stealth and instead of featherfall a silent insta cast of invisible.
Things like that.
 

DYWYPI

Well-known member
Taking each step cautiously, wary that one of the blocks might crumble underfoot or that a trap could suddenly open beneath them, they crept downwards. The walls were slippery abominations best left untouched, so they kept as much as possible to the middle of the stairway.

I also would support the reintroduction of the 'pass through enemies when you tumble' feature from historic 'Shadow Form' reappearing within 'Shadowform'. Surely, such passing through enemies during tumble wouldn't be considered too powerful for the Level 30 version. Such actual useful and interesting stealth tactics as 'passing through enemies' seemed to have been neglected.

It's not asking for any type of damage or speed boost; it's for diversity and tactical movement purposes, e.g. stealth related functions. For example, when things "go south" with monsters hemming you in (or lag) and your screen is choked full of mobs and you cannot see anything other; it allows an escape or re-positioning route. She primarily uses dual daggers, not a sweeping quarterstaff.

It is likely nobody within Team DDO enjoys Solo Assassin stealth play so it's being mostly ignored. See that my grave is kept clean. The two words 'information' and 'communication' are often used interchangeably, but they signify quite different things. Information is giving out; communication is getting through.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
I invested in Transmutation for my druid and I can reach 113 DC: that's not enough for mass frog in high reaper.
I also invested in illusion DC and I reach 112 DC: that's also not enough for Weird in high reaper and consider that your enemies have to fail a will save AND a fortitude save to be killed.
I invested in necromancy and I reach 112 DC: that's not enough for finger of death in high reaper.

Those numbers may land "sometimes", maybe it's what you mean by "I do see others using it in upper Reapers": the real question is "how much illusion DC would you reach if Weird spell would be available to you? If it's a number lower than 110 then don't waste your time, unless you want to use it at R1 difficulty for fun and you would kill faster with your melee weapons anyway at that difficulty.

This warlock build was showing an R8 video of a recent content with 118 illusion DC where he was landing some successful phantasmal killer spells: https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/rhinoceross-acid-warlock-dcs-and-dmg-build.1294/

Consider that only my 129 evocation DC is reliable in any content, while my Salt ray spell (fortitude save without heighten spell) lands very often with 124 DC in R10 Sharn content but can fail with 112 DC if I don't apply embolden feat.

I have a question for everyone: how does Cut the Strings work?
My main tree is Fatesinger and I didn't spend 1 destiny point for it because it's kinda bugged: I cast it and let's say that everyone around me dances (they are not helpless), but how do I cut their strings? I cast aoe spell on the dancing mobs but noone of them dies (tested in the first group of mobs in Wake me up inside R10).
Ok, let's break down your points you made in regards to my post.
"I invested in Transmutation for my druid and I can reach 113 DC: that's not enough for mass frog in high reaper.
I also invested in illusion DC and I reach 112 DC: that's also not enough for Weird in high reaper and consider that your enemies have to fail a will save AND a fortitude save to be killed.


For DC's to work in R10, either (one) choose the mob with the low save per your attack.(Fort/Will/Reflex) I'm sure many know but, casters and archers tend to have lower Fort saves, that I've heard people can still target with DC's in the upper 90's. Or (two) raise your DC's by another 8-10 more points in R10. For Fort saves like you mentioned, now in R10's, in the new content(and Sharn as well), it seems you need mid 120's for it to hit reliably. That's what my DC's are(for Assassinate) and they succeed(Only though when it fails, there's no feed back as to why it failed. Would like to know minimum number to reach for Attack/To Hit to succeed in R10.)



Those numbers may land "sometimes", maybe it's what you mean by "I do see others using it in upper Reapers": the real question is "how much illusion DC would you reach if Weird spell would be available to you? If it's a number lower than 110 then don't waste your time, unless you want to use it at R1 difficulty for fun and you would kill faster with your melee weapons anyway at that difficulty."

What I mean, is what I said that I see Weird landing, when I run in R10, with the same players that join, but yes not everyone is landing Weird but the Casters/Alchemists that I run with are popping that off, quite often, from a distance throughout are run to the end.

For my DC to land Weird; the DC for ShadowDancer Tree, would of been a multilsector for Melee players to choose based off of Assassinate DC, just like the other Melee Trees have it base off of Stunning/Sundering DC or Trip DC, etc.
It wouldn't of been a Caster School DC(for Weird) as Shadow Dancer is a melee/range original Tree, that got a Force Caster, to Squat, in that tree and try to take over half the real estate.

-----------
Force/Illusion Caster should of just gone to Magus of the Eclipse as it's better suited "thematically" in that Tree with it's damage type: Cold/Negative --- and Force/Illusion Damage type.
Just like Draconic Incarnation Tree has six types of Damage: Black (Acid), Blue (Electricity), Green (Poison), Red (Fire), Shadow (Negative), or White (Frost).
Primal Avatar has: Fire, Light, Positive, Cold, Electric, Sonic, Acid, Poison, Force.
FateSinger has only: Positive, Sonic and Electric.

This warlock build was showing an R8 video of a recent content with 118 illusion DC where he was landing some successful phantasmal killer spells:
https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/rhinoceross-acid-warlock-dcs-and-dmg-build.1294/

In regards to landing Phantasmal Killer and doing it off a six second timer, here is a video and on the 10:24 mark you can better see it landing from a distance as a Sorcerer.

DDO Instakill Sorcerer - R10 Black and Blue

There's another video of an Alchamists I believe getting the cooldowns, down to 4 seconds in R10.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
Max investment to cooldown means 40% CD reduction. What exactly spells you see? For Weird/Weil, for example, it's must be 36 sec, not 4. ;)


Your believing is incorrect. 20% Concealment don't need investments at all, it just 50% Displacement from clickies - 30% reaper debuff.
Heavy investment means take (and use!) SD mantle and take T3 Depths of Darkness upgrade, provide +25% stacking Concealment bonus. With +50% Displacement and -30% reaper debuff it's exactly 45% at R10. True Seeing mobs still problem, but it's legit problem, because they is minority, not majority really.
I run in R10 as a Rogue, with the Shadow Dancer Tree and though you say the numbers tell you -30% Dodge in R10; game play in the dungeon calculated to much less than just a -30% dodge decrease.
Dodge seems to be at 25-30% of the time, your "theoretical" being blocked by cooldowns and environment also it is not in a lab with a test dummy(NPC archer), to recall 10 times and call it a fact. Now if your dodge is over 50% in Reaper10(Character Sheet-AC window) than, that is when it starts to become a factor in play for sure.
Max investment to cooldown means 40% CD reduction. What exactly spells you see? For Weird/Weil, for example, it's must be 36 sec, not 4. ;)
Here's one video that has a Sorcerer hitting Phantasmal Killer with a six second cooldown(@10:24 mark) to update your thought.

DDO Instakill Sorcerer - R10 Black and Blue

Like I said I've seen an Alchamist, I believe, bring Frog down to four seconds or so. If you need it, I can try to find the video for it as well.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
I did play with the old destiny, and I did miss my Consume, but I do just fine with the new stuff. Had to adjust my thinking a little bit, sure, but I also don't expect gameplay to be a walk in the park, because that's just not fun. I play rogue for the challenge, and because I enjoy being a support type in a party. I am content stabbing things in the back and topping the kill count just as much as I am being able to be the bluffer in the Dryad raid, or the dead person walking the path in Skeletons or stealthed on the laser in Nemesis.
The thing is allot of people might of casually played with Shadow Dancer and use Consume on occasion, originally it was broken and very unreliable as it would go off blowing boxes, crates and hitting doors, it also had the charge system that you needed to build up to get it to be active to click on. It was somewhat cumbersome to get/build but believe it or not, you could at the time go into a quest use activities to get 3 charges, recall and then you were able to start a quest with it ready to go(again very tedious and not practical). They eventually fixed it so it wouldn't need charges and also it wouldn't target breakables and just focus on mobs(though it was random selection).
It was very handy when a spawned mob would appear out of nowhere or you were trying to escape through a narrow area to get through.

I'm not knocking your gameplay/style but, "I do just fine with the new stuff and because I enjoy being a support type in a party" doesn't sound like someone that has invested much time/practice/testing and money honing a specific class to be self sufficient in the hardest difficulty in the game which is R10 for now and that's fine :), that might not bring you the enjoyment to do/be that type of character(Running R10/solo/two-man/group).
Everyone can enjoy their character for what it was intended for them to be.

The reason I say R10 is because that's the highest difficulty DDO has right now and the highest bar of challenge for questing in a dungeon.
Raids are another story.


Weird as a spell is blocked if you're not a spell caster. Well, yeah, it's added to the spellbook, it's not a clickie like Mass Frog or any of the others. Weird CAN be taken as Consumed by Shadows, and if you think that reducing a mob's AC to 0 for 12 seconds, with a DC based on your highest ability rather than being limited to INT/CHA/WIS like Weird the spell isn't useful in reaper, I'm not sure what else to say.
Weird is - (just like every other Epic Destiny Tree ability that is available to any character: Mass Frog/Dire Charge/Everything is Nothing/Cut the Strings and Super Duper Greater Ruin Intensified, all of which ability/spell we can choose) an Epic Destiny ability just like all the other special/magical abilities
Again Weird could of perfectly fit in the Tree and be inclusive to stealth players basing it off of a Tactical stat: Assassinate, just like Dire Charge and Greater Master of Flowers "Stun" ability are based off of "Stunning" tactics.

Rogues are not spellcasters. They gave a different option that benefits a toon sneaking around to balance that.
Weird is in Shadow Dancer Tree(a melee/range stealth tree) it. Consume by shadows is no where near as useful as Weird would of been and especially if Consume(Implosion) would of stayed as a selector(since it was already there before). The Weird spell is Very useful in Reapers.
Epic Destiny Trees doesn't gate anyone out of abilities in Tier IV or V, you can pick what you want. Shadow Dancer is the only tree that gates, it's own character type out of it's own Tree????? I can use every other Trees "Magical abilities" with no problems, I unfathomably can't choose my own Trees abilities. Artificers aren't really considered casters but they got included in the "short list" to be able to choose it.

They didn't "give a different option that benefits a toon sneaking around to balance that."
They took away many abilities, (that it seems you never used in the original tree to understand how bad they butchered it) and they completely watered down extremely low the Tree, either because they:(devs/producers) don't play end game stealth players or they don't care for them or they didn't/or want to figure out how to put back the abilities it had before(Tumble through enemies, happened to stay in GMoF along with EIN)

I'll point out again what was removed:
Looking into it further, it's not coincidental, there was a conscious effort for exclusion.
1. Remove Tumble through enemies. Grand Master of Flowers kept theirs.
2. Split Stealthy into 2 wasteful abilities, when Assassinate modifiers were built into it before.
3. Removal of Shadow Manipulation but give it to a Range tree in Beguile Charm character that ranges from a safe distance(they never had it/don't need it), when it was needed/and used by stealth/melee characters to help draw aggro away, since they are in death melee range of getting taken out.
4. Executioner Shot/Strike, a very useful ability as a secondary option when going on the offensive.(C'mon it was a 35% chance from original tree)
5. Consume, (oh we changed it to an ability called "Weird" but you can't use it) it was another defensive choice as a counter strike once you were targeted by mobs, to give you a chance to survive a mob encounter, especially with the broken aggro system in Reaper difficulty.

We got Wand and Scroll Mastery plain flavor.(a character level 1 or 2 "Heroic" Enhancement)
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
Shadowdancer should have Summon Shadow, Power Word Blind SLA, it's Mantle should include ghoststep which counters tremor sense, maybe a leap of faith kind of clickie that propels the player forward but retaining stealth and instead of featherfall a silent insta cast of invisible.
Things like that.
These are excellent examples of what could have been.
Summon Shadows with the CR based off of half of your stat Mod and half Assassinate DC would of been solid.
A Power Word Blind clicky (in stealth) with a chance to lower to six second cooldown, would help get in Sneak Attacks and help defensively.
Actually anti-Tremor Sense was included in the original Lamania first pass through testing notes, but they never ended up going with it(supposed troubleshooting issues).
leap of faith kind of clickie that propels the player forward but retaining stealth is what From the Shadows is but they should of added that you could "Pass through Enemies" while doing that as well as a "Stun" effect. The "Invisible" part would also be a very useful feature(even if "Invis" lasted 5-10 seconds.

Believe me, many of us were giving constant feedback in pass 1, pass 2 and pass 3 on the Shadow Dancer Tree.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
Taking each step cautiously, wary that one of the blocks might crumble underfoot or that a trap could suddenly open beneath them, they crept downwards. The walls were slippery abominations best left untouched, so they kept as much as possible to the middle of the stairway.
It would be nice to have quests, that benefited heavily with having a Stealth/Rogue type player in the dungeon for its surrounding type landscape/dungeon to navigate through.
I also would support the reintroduction of the 'pass through enemies when you tumble' feature from historic 'Shadow Form' reappearing within 'Shadowform'. Surely, such passing through enemies during tumble wouldn't be considered too powerful for the Level 30 version. Such actual useful and interesting stealth tactics as 'passing through enemies' seemed to have been neglected.
This is valid, especially as it is a Tier I, yes Tier I !!! ability in Greater Master of Forms Epic Destiny Mantle: "....and Finally, you are unbothered by the physical restraints of the world: you may tumble through enemies." Clownworld....

It's not asking for any type of damage or speed boost; it's for diversity and tactical movement purposes, e.g. stealth related functions. For example, when things "go south" with monsters hemming you in (or lag) and your screen is choked full of mobs and you cannot see anything other; it allows an escape or re-positioning route. She primarily uses dual daggers, not a sweeping quarterstaff.
This was also the reason why Consume(Implosion) was soo Useful in a situation like this, not only tumbling through enemies but also having a chance to thin out the herd of onslaught one would sometimes fall under, with respawns or new-spawns.
It is likely nobody within Team DDO enjoys Solo Assassin stealth play so it's being mostly ignored. See that my grave is kept clean. The two words 'information' and 'communication' are often used interchangeably, but they signify quite different things. Information is giving out; communication is getting through.
There are some here that "get it" or "understand" what this playstyle is about. And how cerebral tactics, is just as fun as button mashing or hot keying combos entails.

When Shadar-kai came out, I was excited because there was an ability to use "chains" just like the mobs where using on us to slow us/trip us down in the Snowy Mountain Dungeons we would run. = The chains were useless, but now it is respectable damage.

When the Devs mentioned they were retooling the Epic Destinies to be smoother, not as cumbersome(choosing non class Epic Destinies to advance in the Forrest), I welcomed it, even though I had capped off all of the Epic Destinies by then.
And offer "more" diversity for everyone, it did pique my interest.
But the bill of goods promised and instead sold, unfortunately has been the opposite for the Shadow Dancer Tree.
I knew Meld was getting watered down, and had they done just that and not removed anything else, it would of been a hit but not a debacle, like it is now as a Stealth player.

There was no valid reason to remove:
Tumble through Enemies(GMoF kept theirs at Tier I)
Split the choice of Stealthy and Assassinate apart from each other(when they were included together before) to waste point spending.
Shadow Manipulation( When now a Range Tree gets it and boosted in Shiradi's Champions "Greater Beguile Charm" ).
Executioner's Strike/Shot: a very handy way to get another (only 35%) assassinate off.
Consume(Implosion): Already stated by other countless times.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
There should also be a cooldown reducer also for Bluff, Assassinate, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Improved Uncanny Dodge, just like they give cooldowns to spells to bring them all the way down to 4-6 seconds, with investments.

Doublestrike was very crucial for Assassinate, it allowed you to target up to three mobs to hit and a very, very seldom chance to get a fourth one with offhand double strike.
Devs can put Strikethrough how it is now to the Assassinate ability, allowing you to boost it up with Strikethrough%
They collateral damaged it away with the doublestrike/shot removal, that only benefitted DPS builds and the lag was still present even after the changes, so by adding Strikethrough to Assassinate, they wouldn't be worried about opening another door, since it is already there, and Dance of Death is there as a Ranger ability already as well, with it's Strikethrough: For 10 seconds, you gain the ability to Strikethrough regardless of combat style. You also gain +0/100/200 Strikethrough for the duration. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)
I mean C'mon! you gave a Ranger an ability to "Assassinate" AND the ability to "throw Traps!" that not even a level 32 Trapper can do? So yes, Strikethrough giving the ability to Assassinate more than just 1 or 2 targets would not be out of the realm of the abilities given out.

Imagine if a Caster only had the ability to do one Finger of Death/Frog every 12 seconds and have to do it in stealth.....
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
Message Boards were one of the original Social Medias, but unfortunately this topic isn't or won't "Trend" nowadays.

Would be nice if someone in Enad Global 7 would play stealth/Rogue playstyle..... Hjälp mig Obi Wan du är vårt enda hopp
🧔🚀🔦🗡️🗡️🏳️🇸🇪
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
sw-1.jpg
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
Rogues/Stealth players use to be able to play stealthfully like this :

Shadow Manipulation:
When entering a Room with several mobs/Reapers, you were able to enter in stealth and use Shadow Manipulation to get a mob or reaper to draw aggro to allow to enter stealthfully and use your Sneak Attack dice for damage on mobs focusing on your(Dominated) pet to be able to strategically go after the first mob that needed to be dispatched that would cause the most problems.
Guess who gets that ability now? Shiradi Champion(Beguile Charm) a Range tree that is not worried(in close proximity) or benefits to the same extent as a sneak attack dice melee(more dangerous playstyle) character.

Pass through enemies on Tumble:
Very important ability when you were surrounded by mobs and couldn't move left/right/back or forth to get out of harms way.
Guess who still has that ability now? Greater Master of Flowers, that's great and glad they didn't loose it, so why did Shadow Dancer loose it again?

Executioner Strike/Shot:
Ability to take out and kill a mob, at only 35% chance of it landing. Not very consistent but when it landed was extremely helpful if you built up the DC's for it.
No reason to remove it from tree at all, it was at a Tier where it couldn't be twisted in at all.(twist were only allowed for tiers 4 and down on a tier 6 tree, so tiers 5 and 6 weren't twistable or "able to add to your Destiny Tree as a twist") So this was an upper Tier ability.

Consume:
Whenever you were spotted and started to get a group of mobs to chase after you, you could use Consume(implosion) to try and escape getting ambushed and gave you a chance to reduce the amount of mobs you had to deal with that falsely aggro'd on you.(Remember Stealth in Reaper is very broken, still to some degree)
Guess who gets that ability now but somewhat better and controlled(and only 1 minute cooldown) because you can point to a particular crowd to initiate? Fatesinger in Cut the Strings, you get to CC a group of mobs and one shot(assassinate) them per hit and they dance prone there and not attack you.

Shadow Dancer gets a nice ability in Weird, but wait you can't choose it....Your a Bloody Rogue! Be gone you Undesirable!.
I can go(as a Rogue) and choose Mass Frog, Cut the Strings, Dire Charge, Improved Greater Ruin, Everything is Nothing(congrats monk on not loosing it)

Meld into Nothing:
95% Dodge( was high but had a long cooldown)
It was not an Epic Strike at all but a defensive ability, that should of been just lowered to maybe a stacking 35% Dodge every 15-30 seconds cooldown.

Dark Imbuement:
Was a top tier choice for you to take if you wanted that would increase your swing(melee) to a Great Cleave distance in a way, to attack from a safer distance and your Range attack had a chance of proccing an large radius AOE damage to an area.(range part is gone)


These are the possible Twists back then:

Twists from Shiradi in Double Rainbow(can do on live still now)
Twists from Shiradi in Otto's Whistler or Pin(can do on live still now)
Twists from Fatesinger Sirens Song to Mesmerize Reapers or mobs from a range distance for 10 seconds and tick -2 CON DOT, damage every two seconds(is gone but WAS useful ability)
Twists from Primal Avatar in Cocoon(can do on live still now)
 

KylerrTheMajty

Well-known member
Rogues/Stealth players use to be able to play stealthfully like this :

Shadow Manipulation:
When entering a Room with several mobs/Reapers, you were able to enter in stealth and use Shadow Manipulation to get a mob or reaper to draw aggro to allow to enter stealthfully and use your Sneak Attack dice for damage on mobs focusing on your(Dominated) pet to be able to strategically go after the first mob that needed to be dispatched that would cause the most problems.
Guess who gets that ability now? Shiradi Champion(Beguile Charm) a Range tree that is not worried(in close proximity) or benefits to the same extent as a sneak attack dice melee(more dangerous playstyle) character.

Pass through enemies on Tumble:
Very important ability when you were surrounded by mobs and couldn't move left/right/back or forth to get out of harms way.
Guess who still has that ability now? Greater Master of Flowers, that's great and glad they didn't loose it, so why did Shadow Dancer loose it again?

Executioner Strike/Shot:
Ability to take out and kill a mob, at only 35% chance of it landing. Not very consistent but when it landed was extremely helpful if you built up the DC's for it.
No reason to remove it from tree at all, it was at a Tier where it couldn't be twisted in at all.(twist were only allowed for tiers 4 and down on a tier 6 tree, so tiers 5 and 6 weren't twistable or "able to add to your Destiny Tree as a twist") So this was an upper Tier ability.

Consume:
Whenever you were spotted and started to get a group of mobs to chase after you, you could use Consume(implosion) to try and escape getting ambushed and gave you a chance to reduce the amount of mobs you had to deal with that falsely aggro'd on you.(Remember Stealth in Reaper is very broken, still to some degree)
Guess who gets that ability now but somewhat better and controlled(and only 1 minute cooldown) because you can point to a particular crowd to initiate? Fatesinger in Cut the Strings, you get to CC a group of mobs and one shot(assassinate) them per hit and they dance prone there and not attack you.

Shadow Dancer gets a nice ability in Weird, but wait you can't choose it....Your a Bloody Rogue! Be gone you Undesirable!.
I can go(as a Rogue) and choose Mass Frog, Cut the Strings, Dire Charge, Improved Greater Ruin, Everything is Nothing(congrats monk on not loosing it)

Meld into Nothing:
95% Dodge( was high but had a long cooldown)
It was not an Epic Strike at all but a defensive ability, that should of been just lowered to maybe a stacking 35% Dodge every 15-30 seconds cooldown.

Dark Imbuement:
Was a top tier choice for you to take if you wanted that would increase your swing(melee) to a Great Cleave distance in a way, to attack from a safer distance and your Range attack had a chance of proccing an large radius AOE damage to an area.(range part is gone)


These are the possible Twists back then:

Twists from Shiradi in Double Rainbow(can do on live still now)
Twists from Shiradi in Otto's Whistler or Pin(can do on live still now)
Twists from Fatesinger Sirens Song to Mesmerize Reapers or mobs from a range distance for 10 seconds and tick -2 CON DOT, damage every two seconds(is gone but WAS useful ability)
Twists from Primal Avatar in Cocoon(can do on live still now)
at this point assassint should be redesigned , imo assassinate should be like core 1 maybe 3 and then with all tiers should be slowly upgraded bc atm its pointles to take it on heroic and its beggining to fun only on high reaper

why? bc every other diff you are too slow to even sneak to mob bc its getting killed
 
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