When are the devs gonna fix Shadow Dancer Epic Destiny:

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
at this point assassint should be redesigned , imo assassinate should be like core 1 maybe 3 and then with all tiers should be slowly upgraded bc atm its pointles to take it on heroic and its beggining to fun only on high reaper

why? bc every other diff you are too slow to even sneak to mob bc its getting killed

I would be ok with it in Core 3, I would put back, You Vorpal on 20 with your weapon, in Core 4, it use to be in the Cores before and they took it out.

I would also think, Throwing daggers should be a part of Assassin Tree, as they "are" daggers that you throw. So you would have a Range ability opton. (Vistani has it and they are using daggers and throwing daggers)

I would then put in tier 5, Assassinate cooldown ability to (10/8/5 second).
To fix the wrongfully Assassinate doesn't work on Deathblock,
I would put in also in Tier 5 :
Mortal Fear Attack(melee and range, like Rapid Attack: 12 sec cooldown) : ( On Hit: 8d8 "Sneak Attack" Damage. In addition, 5% chance to cut non-boss foe's current health in half. ) at tier 5 as well, since DeathWard mobs(wrongfully) , can't be assassinated.

Since Assassinate isn't a "Spell" they have to save from...
( Deathblock: This effect grants immunity to all death spells and magical death effects. )...
...As a Deathblock spell is used for; the "ability to Assassinate" is a melee damage DPS attack, that you have to:
(1) Be in Sneak
(2) Apply it from Stealth
(3) Needs a high DC to land
(4) Need to be able to "land" the attack.

So if Deatblock is there, by force, then a 5% of reducing half hitpoints against Champs or Orange Names isn't way off, for a Rogue that has to stealth and can Assassinate.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
Shortbows are really not a range option for Assassins....Throwing daggers would be stealthy and could use the Sneak Attack Dice to help it along with Crit Profile and Multiplier.
 

DeathTitan

Well-known member
Ok, let's break down your points you made in regards to my post.
"I invested in Transmutation for my druid and I can reach 113 DC: that's not enough for mass frog in high reaper.
I also invested in illusion DC and I reach 112 DC: that's also not enough for Weird in high reaper and consider that your enemies have to fail a will save AND a fortitude save to be killed.


For DC's to work in R10, either (one) choose the mob with the low save per your attack.(Fort/Will/Reflex) I'm sure many know but, casters and archers tend to have lower Fort saves, that I've heard people can still target with DC's in the upper 90's. Or (two) raise your DC's by another 8-10 more points in R10. For Fort saves like you mentioned, now in R10's, in the new content(and Sharn as well), it seems you need mid 120's for it to hit reliably. That's what my DC's are(for Assassinate) and they succeed(Only though when it fails, there's no feed back as to why it failed. Would like to know minimum number to reach for Attack/To Hit to succeed in R10.)



Those numbers may land "sometimes", maybe it's what you mean by "I do see others using it in upper Reapers": the real question is "how much illusion DC would you reach if Weird spell would be available to you? If it's a number lower than 110 then don't waste your time, unless you want to use it at R1 difficulty for fun and you would kill faster with your melee weapons anyway at that difficulty."

What I mean, is what I said that I see Weird landing, when I run in R10, with the same players that join, but yes not everyone is landing Weird but the Casters/Alchemists that I run with are popping that off, quite often, from a distance throughout are run to the end.

For my DC to land Weird; the DC for ShadowDancer Tree, would of been a multilsector for Melee players to choose based off of Assassinate DC, just like the other Melee Trees have it base off of Stunning/Sundering DC or Trip DC, etc.
It wouldn't of been a Caster School DC(for Weird) as Shadow Dancer is a melee/range original Tree, that got a Force Caster, to Squat, in that tree and try to take over half the real estate.

-----------
Force/Illusion Caster should of just gone to Magus of the Eclipse as it's better suited "thematically" in that Tree with it's damage type: Cold/Negative --- and Force/Illusion Damage type.
Just like Draconic Incarnation Tree has six types of Damage: Black (Acid), Blue (Electricity), Green (Poison), Red (Fire), Shadow (Negative), or White (Frost).
Primal Avatar has: Fire, Light, Positive, Cold, Electric, Sonic, Acid, Poison, Force.
FateSinger has only: Positive, Sonic and Electric.

This warlock build was showing an R8 video of a recent content with 118 illusion DC where he was landing some successful phantasmal killer spells:
https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?threads/rhinoceross-acid-warlock-dcs-and-dmg-build.1294/

In regards to landing Phantasmal Killer and doing it off a six second timer, here is a video and on the 10:24 mark you can better see it landing from a distance as a Sorcerer.

DDO Instakill Sorcerer - R10 Black and Blue

There's another video of an Alchamists I believe getting the cooldowns, down to 4 seconds in R10.
excuse me, but black and blue mobs have crap saves.
I believe that your 120 assassination DC could be fine but now Weird is an illusion spell and the developers will never change it to be something affected by assassination bonus or whatever (they would rather add new assassination abilities).

When you cast Weird or Mass Frog or Wail of the banshee you hit multiple mobs and you want to see them all dead, casters, archers and high fortitude mobs, also Weird have fortitude+will save so your idea of targeting weak targets means that you have to find "will and fort" weak targets.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
excuse me, but black and blue mobs have crap saves.
I believe that your 120 assassination DC could be fine
I put black and blue to show that Phantasmal Killer is working with a six second cooldown, the mobs he targeted looked like casters and archers, and they are with group to help with the Fort mobs.
When I do R10's(Sharn, Isle, Feywild, CHill R10 dungeons), the Sorcs, and Alch's are hitting FOD, PK, Weird, Frog along with their AOE nukes and is a challenge to get in a kill.

I can hit Cut the Strings, Everything Is Nothing, Mass Frog(not very effective) and make it proc(work) .
I use to use Dire Charge but it was not working after an update and was unreliable so I stopped using it(it might of gotten fixed now).
I don't spec in Enchantment but I do put gear on and can make Cut the Strings work in R10, same as Everything is Nothing.
but now Weird is an illusion spell and the developers will never change it to be something affected by assassination bonus or whatever (they would rather add new assassination abilities).

Again we are talking about Epic Destiny Abilities, not Racial or Class Abilities.
I shouldn't be able to cast Super Greater Ruin...but I can, because it is an Epic Destiny ability, that is what it was meant to be, to be able to use abilities, you are normally not able to do. If an ability is in my Tree(Shadow Dancer) it has to account for what DC's I use(Assassinate), just like every Tree has their own: Stunning, Evocation, etc. None of the Trees STOP me from using all of their abilities, MY TREE shouldn't either.

Like I said, being in Shadow Dancer Tree has a choice of using Melee Power, Range Power, Assassinate DC, Illusion DC choices and Force Spell Power, I get all of those, in that Tree.
And even the Epic Strike allows you to choose if you want to use Assassinate DC or Illusion DC to attack. It let's ME CHOOSE.
It would be the same for Weird as an Epic Destiny choice in the Tree. Not a level up Class Feat/Spell.
Just like in Shiradi Epic Destiny Trees let you choose: Range Power damage or Illusion DC, you can choose which one is better

When you cast Weird or Mass Frog or Wail of the banshee you hit multiple mobs and you want to see them all dead, casters, archers and high fortitude mobs, also Weird have fortitude+will save so your idea of targeting weak targets means that you have to find "will and fort" weak targets.

They would all be dead if you had high enough DC's to win against their saves, for instance you could:

Mass Hold your grouping, Neg level the high Fort mobs each,
then use Weird or Mass Frog,
Use Color Spray/Freezing Ice to Crowd Control them again or Mass Hold again, then pick off the remaining ones, with another Neg Level and Finger or whatever you are specc'd in.

You can't always get them all on first attack. Unless your DC's are high enough.
That's were you, as a Caster has the advantage of running around from a distance and reapplying your Crowd Control and attacks.
This is how DDO has always been; you soften the target, then you try to hit them hard.

For fun long ago before Reaper, I use to go in Epic The Chronoscope as a Rogue and in the beginning, stealth and Assassinate a few mobs then run to the top of the platform in the back and when the Bearded Devil would appear looking around, I would Invis myself, stealth and target it and Neg level it(Enervation Scroll) 3 or 4 times and cast from scroll Finger of Death (once or twice) and be happy I was able to land it and take it out, from a distance.
Scroll Casting was a thing back then and is still a small part today.
If a spell is Castable from a scroll, it can be an SLA and can be as an Epic Destiny ability with no problems.

Look at what they're doing with new Epic Destiny Macrotechnic:
Rune Arm Use: You gain the Rune Arm Use feat. Your Caster level with Rune Arms is now based on the higher of half of your Character Level versus your Artificer Level. If you already had the Rune Arm Use feat, +1 Stable Charge Tier.

I'm 20 level Rogue, now I can use Rune Arms, if I select the Epic Destiny Tree, but only IF I choose that Epic Destiny.
If I'm in Shadow Dancer, I SHOULD be able to pick from my own Tree a Special ability, only from that Tree.
 
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DeathTitan

Well-known member
I put black and blue to show that Phantasmal Killer is working with a six second cooldown, the mobs he targeted looked like casters and archers, and they are with group to help with the Fort mobs.
When I do R10's(Sharn, Isle, Feywild, CHill R10 dungeons), the Sorcs, and Alch's are hitting FOD, PK, Weird, Frog along with their AOE nukes and is a challenge to get in a kill.

I can hit Cut the Strings, Everything Is Nothing, Mass Frog(not very effective) and make it proc(work) .
I use to use Dire Charge but it was not working after an update and was unreliable so I stopped using it(it might of gotten fixed now).
I don't spec in Enchantment but I do put gear on and can make Cut the Strings work in R10, same as Everything is Nothing.


Again we are talking about Epic Destiny Abilities, not Racial or Class Abilities.
I shouldn't be able to cast Super Greater Ruin...but I can, because it is an Epic Destiny ability, that is what it was meant to be, to be able to use abilities, you are normally not able to do. If an ability is in my Tree(Shadow Dancer) it has to account for what DC's I use(Assassinate), just like every Tree has their own: Stunning, Evocation, etc. None of the Trees STOP me from using all of their abilities, MY TREE shouldn't either.

Like I said, being in Shadow Dancer Tree has a choice of using Melee Power, Range Power, Assassinate DC, Illusion DC choices and Force Spell Power, I get all of those, in that Tree.
And even the Epic Strike allows you to choose if you want to use Assassinate DC or Illusion DC to attack. It let's ME CHOOSE.
It would be the same for Weird as an Epic Destiny choice in the Tree. Not a level up Class Feat/Spell.
Just like in Shiradi Epic Destiny Trees let you choose: Range Power damage or Illusion DC, you can choose which one is better



They would all be dead if you had high enough DC's to win against their saves, for instance you could:

Mass Hold your grouping, Neg level the high Fort mobs each,
then use Weird or Mass Frog,
Use Color Spray/Freezing Ice to Crowd Control them again or Mass Hold again, then pick off the remaining ones, with another Neg Level and Finger or whatever you are specc'd in.

You can't always get them all on first attack. Unless your DC's are high enough.
That's were you, as a Caster has the advantage of running around from a distance and reapplying your Crowd Control and attacks.
This is how DDO has always been; you soften the target, then you try to hit them hard.

For fun long ago before Reaper, I use to go in Epic The Chronoscope as a Rogue and in the beginning, stealth and Assassinate a few mobs then run to the top of the platform in the back and when the Bearded Devil would appear looking around, I would Invis myself, stealth and target it and Neg level it(Enervation Scroll) 3 or 4 times and cast from scroll Finger of Death (once or twice) and be happy I was able to land it and take it out, from a distance.
Scroll Casting was a thing back then and is still a small part today.
If a spell is Castable from a scroll, it can be an SLA and can be as an Epic Destiny ability with no problems.

Look at what they're doing with new Epic Destiny Macrotechnic:
Rune Arm Use: You gain the Rune Arm Use feat. Your Caster level with Rune Arms is now based on the higher of half of your Character Level versus your Artificer Level. If you already had the Rune Arm Use feat, +1 Stable Charge Tier.

I'm 20 level Rogue, now I can use Rune Arms, if I select the Epic Destiny Tree, but only IF I choose that Epic Destiny.
If I'm in Shadow Dancer, I SHOULD be able to pick from my own Tree a Special ability, only from that Tree.
from what you say, it's clear that you never played a caster at end game: come back with sone videos in droaam r10 content with a caster.
and still forget any Weird spell changes... developers still have to fix the mass frog spell penetration isssue which should be a lot easier, still that bug is still there from years.
 
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VinoeWhines

Well-known member
from what you say, it's clear that you never played a caster at end game: come back with sone videos in droaam r10 content with a caster.
I want it to be VERY CLEAR, I don't play caster and I never really messed with that class at all.
I'm just stating what I know and you need to soften a mob up to do certain type of damage/or Crowd Control/Instakill. That's a fact, unless your DC's are high enough. You cannot dispute that fact.
I play as a level 20 Rogue/level 32 character.
I play in Reaper 10 difficulty in quests.
I solo Reaper 10 difficulty in quests.
I play as a First Lifer to prove to people you DON'T NEED Multi-TR's to play in Reaper 10 (you do need Reaper points to help get your HP up. )
Reaper Tree doesn't have any Assassinate DC's to help me. I have to waste points in Caster Tree to get +4 INT to only give me +2 Assassinate DC's
and still forget any Weird spell changes... developers still have to fix the mass frog spell penetration isssue which should be a lot easier, still that bug is still there from years.
This post is about Fixing Shadow Dancer Epic Destiny and making it at least on level to the other Epic Destinies and putting back things that never should of been removed,( Tumbling through Enemies, Shadow Manipulation, Executioners Strike/Shot, Consume and just lower Meld% down. Adding Anti-Tremor Sense, having a form of Stun as well as create Helplessness.
I would be ok if they left Consume and be the option over Weird but they removed Consume and gave no choice or similar ability.
Consume is Implosion based off of INT stat and Assassinate. Clerics have Implosion, so did Rogues in Consume but it was based off Assassinate DC's.
Apparently you never played as a Rogue in Reaper 10 with the old Shadow Dancer Tree in it's last form before they changed all the Epic Destinies. You would understand how they messed up this Tree by dividing the abilities that were already given together and removed many useful abilities, that other Trees either kept or took from this Tree(GMoF kept many main abilities, Shiradi got abilities they took away from Shadow Dancer, which they didn't need).

Weird is an ability in this Tree, that should not be locked out due to your class.
Even if I can't get the Illusion DC's high enough, if it stayed Illusion base, that doesn't change the fact that I should be locked out of my own Tree, when I can go to any other Tree and pick every ability/SLA in it regardless of my class.
Again Weird if it followed along the line of other Epic Destiny DC's would of been able to select it with Assassinate as it's DC.
GMoF uses Stun DC's, Legendary Dreadnaught uses Stun DC's, those are from their Trees.
Shadow Dancer should use Assassinate DC's for all of it's abilities with the choice to use Caster DC's if you want a Caster version of the same attack, like they did with the Epic Strike. Caster DC's or Melee (Assassinate DC's)
I'm not sure what it is your missing from the many examples and reasons I gave as to why it should be that way.
That's how it always was before. Now the Epic Destinies are easier because you can base it off Highest Ability Score Mod + Specific DC's per Tree theme.

The ladder bug is still there as well and needs to be fixed.
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
Here's one video that has a Sorcerer hitting Phantasmal Killer with a six second cooldown(@10:24 mark) to update your thought.
It's normal unbuffed CD PK for Sorcerer (fully buffed must be about 3.6). So i don't know what your point. Are you unhappy that a PK spell for sorc has such a cooldown?
 

Dergex

Well-known member
I can honestly agree with Vinoe with some of his points, Shadowdancer and Rogue definitely feel... rough around the edges. Especially when compared to some of the more modern designs like Dark Hunter. Shadowdancer lacks any real strong identity and is instead split strangely between offensive and defensive options and melee or spellcaster options. I think it's trying to be too much for too many different people. Some of the things I'd really like to see for utility and other enhancements make a lot more sense for a Rogue rework though so, I'm not going to argue that Shadowdancer needs them.

If I were to shore up Shadowdancer, I would do the following:

Epic Strikes should focus more heavily on the type of Shadowdancer you are than on Offensive or Defensive choices. You should have an initial choice of either Melee, Ranged, or Spellcasting options for your Strike and then each of the enhancements later on improve aspects of the choice you made.
  • Enhancements for Melee should provide sneak attack bonuses for a short period of time through dark imbuement, longer range for melee attacks, should have a 'lifetap' effect for a reasonable amount of health, and should provide a bonus to your dodge for a short duration.
  • Enhancements for Ranged should provide sneak attack bonuses for a short period of time as well as additional bonus damage for you against your target as well as potentially upgrading the bonus damage to an AoE later on. This should be able to compete in some ways with Shiradi in terms of damage for Ranged characters.
  • Enhancements for Magic should provide sneak attack bonuses to your spells as well as bonus efficiency to your spell point costs and metamagics.
Solidify the identity of the Destiny Mantle by leaning more heavily into the Shadow theme. This is where the defensive and survival features of Shadowdancer should likely end up.

Shadowform: Grants +10% Enhancement Action bonus to movement speed, 50% Insight bonus to Sneak Speed, 25% Insight bonus to Cast Run Speed, and grants ghost touch and Vampirism on all attacks.

Depths of Darkness: While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you gain 25% Incorporeality and 25% Concealment. While sneaking you gain Invisibility and Displacement. These effects persist when exiting sneak for 12 seconds and you can only gain these bonuses once every 30 seconds.

Dark Mercy: Your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle now grants you +5/10/15% Helplessness damage. Increase Vampirism to Vampirism 3.

Greater Shadowform: You also gain +10 Force/Universal Spell Power. While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you float as if you had Feather Fall, gain +20 Hide and Move Silently, and no longer trigger pressure plate or bear traps. (Note: As a result of the floating, you are also immune to Trip and Knockdown effects.) When your HP falls below 50% scatter into a shadowy mist taking reduced damage for 6 seconds. This effect may only trigger once every 60 seconds.

When it comes to skills, I think that the Shadowdancer is pretty well represented with enhancements like Stealthy, Technician, and Sleight of Hand. If anything, I would modernize the epic destiny slightly by adjusting the following enhancements.

The Darkest Luck: You have Evasion, normal Evasion rules apply. If you have Evasion already, you gain Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1 you gain Defensive Roll.

Stealthy: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 Hide and Move Silently. Rank 3: Gain the Hide in Plain Sight feat and you can no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1.

Bring Darkness: When you roll a natural 20 critical hit on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, applying the Darkness debuff. If you have the feat First Blood, the trigger of First Blood now also applies the Darkness debuff, and First Blood now triggers on Harmful Spellcasts. Darkness: The target is no longer immune to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 Physical Resistance Rating and -3 Magical Resistance Rating per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks.

Grim Precision: +1/2/3 Spell Penetration, and you bypass 5/10/15% enemy Fortification and Dodge.

Consumed by Shadows: From Sneak: Active attack. Enemy must make a Will save versus 20 + highest ability score + Assassinate or be beset by your shadow. Enemies affected have their Armor Class set to 0, and when they are hit, they take a stack of Vulnerability. Duration: 12 seconds. Cooldown: 1 minute. Note: This ability requires the character to have the Stealth feat active ("in stealth") to use it.

Shadow Mastery: Epic Moment: Dissolve into a whorl of shadow, leaving your corporeal form behind. While in this form, you are considered Sneaking and Invisible regardless of what you do. You also gain 3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, 50% Incorporeality, 50% Concealment, as well as the effects your Epic Strike as if they had been fully trained and upgraded. When non-boss enemies miss you in this state, they are slain by their fear, automatically taking a Phantasmal Killer effect with no save. Duration: 30 seconds. Cooldown: 5 minutes.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
Did you forget that you posed this statement?
It's normal unbuffed CD PK for Sorcerer (fully buffed must be about 3.6). So i don't know what your point. Are you unhappy that a PK spell for sorc has such a cooldown?
Did you forget that you posed this statement? Below where I said...

Me: "I see videos where cooldown on casters are 4 seconds to cast with investment in cooldowns." And you responded:

You:

Max investment to cooldown means 40% CD reduction. What exactly spells you see? For Weird/Weil, for example, it's must be 36 sec, not 4. ;)

Then I show'd you a video where the cooldowns on casting spells are 6 seconds and I also saw on other videos it going down to 4 seconds.
And then you answer "It's normal unbuffed CD PK for Sorcerer...
So you agree with my statement, as I don't know why you questioned it, in the first place, when I said, "I see videos where cooldown on casters are 4 seconds." which I was stating to Deathtitan and then you quoted me.
All I was bringing out is that the game allows for reduce cooldowns to exist.
I never specifically mentioned that Weird was six seconds to cast. You assumed I was referring to that. I wasn't.

In regards to your question

Are you unhappy that a PK spell for sorc has such a cooldown?
Where was the complaint that I said anything about Casters cooldown? I was pointing out a fact that is in the game.

My complaint is that Shadow Dancer blocks Weird(Mass PK) from Rogues, when Shadow Dancer is a Stealth/Rogue Tree specifically and that I can go to Caster Trees and pick caster spells, even though I have no classes in Caster: Cut the Strings, Super Greater Ruin, Daunting Roar, Mass Frog and the SLA's.
I'm not saying I would out perform a caster, but that I CAN choose those abilities.

Shadow Dancer would have Weird DC be based off of my Assassinate, just like the Epic Strikes give you a choice for it to be based off of your Illusion/Fear DC or your Assassinate DC:

  • Nightmare Lance (spell): Epic Strike: Illusion Spell, deals 1d6+6 Force damage per caster level. Enemies must make a Will save vs (20 + highest ability score + illusion bonuses + fear bonuses) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 15 seconds.
    • Shadow Loss: You no longer cast a shadow. In addition, you have -5 PRR, MRR, and Spell Resistance.
  • Shadowstrike (melee): Epic Strike: +5[W], +3 Critical Threat Range and Critical Damage Multiplier. Enemy must make a Fortitude save vs (20 + highest ability score + assassinate) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 15 seconds.
  • Shadowstrike (ranged): Epic Strike: +5[W], +3 Critical Threat Range and Critical Damage Multiplier. Enemy must make a Fortitude save vs (20 + highest ability score + assassinate) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 15 seconds.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member
I can honestly agree with Vinoe with some of his points, Shadowdancer and Rogue definitely feel... rough around the edges. Especially when compared to some of the more modern designs like Dark Hunter. Shadowdancer lacks any real strong identity and is instead split strangely between offensive and defensive options and melee or spellcaster options. I think it's trying to be too much for too many different people. Some of the things I'd really like to see for utility and other enhancements make a lot more sense for a Rogue rework though so, I'm not going to argue that Shadowdancer needs them.

If I were to shore up Shadowdancer, I would do the following:

Epic Strikes should focus more heavily on the type of Shadowdancer you are than on Offensive or Defensive choices. You should have an initial choice of either Melee, Ranged, or Spellcasting options for your Strike and then each of the enhancements later on improve aspects of the choice you made.
  • Enhancements for Melee should provide sneak attack bonuses for a short period of time through dark imbuement, longer range for melee attacks, should have a 'lifetap' effect for a reasonable amount of health, and should provide a bonus to your dodge for a short duration.
  • Enhancements for Ranged should provide sneak attack bonuses for a short period of time as well as additional bonus damage for you against your target as well as potentially upgrading the bonus damage to an AoE later on. This should be able to compete in some ways with Shiradi in terms of damage for Ranged characters.
  • Enhancements for Magic should provide sneak attack bonuses to your spells as well as bonus efficiency to your spell point costs and metamagics.
Solidify the identity of the Destiny Mantle by leaning more heavily into the Shadow theme. This is where the defensive and survival features of Shadowdancer should likely end up.

Shadowform: Grants +10% Enhancement Action bonus to movement speed, 50% Insight bonus to Sneak Speed, 25% Insight bonus to Cast Run Speed, and grants ghost touch and Vampirism on all attacks.

Depths of Darkness: While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you gain 25% Incorporeality and 25% Concealment. While sneaking you gain Invisibility and Displacement. These effects persist when exiting sneak for 12 seconds and you can only gain these bonuses once every 30 seconds.

Dark Mercy: Your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle now grants you +5/10/15% Helplessness damage. Increase Vampirism to Vampirism 3.

Greater Shadowform: You also gain +10 Force/Universal Spell Power. While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you float as if you had Feather Fall, gain +20 Hide and Move Silently, and no longer trigger pressure plate or bear traps. (Note: As a result of the floating, you are also immune to Trip and Knockdown effects.) When your HP falls below 50% scatter into a shadowy mist taking reduced damage for 6 seconds. This effect may only trigger once every 60 seconds.

When it comes to skills, I think that the Shadowdancer is pretty well represented with enhancements like Stealthy, Technician, and Sleight of Hand. If anything, I would modernize the epic destiny slightly by adjusting the following enhancements.

The Darkest Luck: You have Evasion, normal Evasion rules apply. If you have Evasion already, you gain Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1 you gain Defensive Roll.

Stealthy: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 Hide and Move Silently. Rank 3: Gain the Hide in Plain Sight feat and you can no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1.

Bring Darkness: When you roll a natural 20 critical hit on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, applying the Darkness debuff. If you have the feat First Blood, the trigger of First Blood now also applies the Darkness debuff, and First Blood now triggers on Harmful Spellcasts. Darkness: The target is no longer immune to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 Physical Resistance Rating and -3 Magical Resistance Rating per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks.

Grim Precision: +1/2/3 Spell Penetration, and you bypass 5/10/15% enemy Fortification and Dodge.

Consumed by Shadows: From Sneak: Active attack. Enemy must make a Will save versus 20 + highest ability score + Assassinate or be beset by your shadow. Enemies affected have their Armor Class set to 0, and when they are hit, they take a stack of Vulnerability. Duration: 12 seconds. Cooldown: 1 minute. Note: This ability requires the character to have the Stealth feat active ("in stealth") to use it.

Shadow Mastery: Epic Moment: Dissolve into a whorl of shadow, leaving your corporeal form behind. While in this form, you are considered Sneaking and Invisible regardless of what you do. You also gain 3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, 50% Incorporeality, 50% Concealment, as well as the effects your Epic Strike as if they had been fully trained and upgraded. When non-boss enemies miss you in this state, they are slain by their fear, automatically taking a Phantasmal Killer effect with no save. Duration: 30 seconds. Cooldown: 5 minutes.

These are all great points and in line with many stealth/Rogue players. The Epic Moment should be 30 seconds.

For the Epic Moment to work and be reliable, I would suggest that it have the Dreamscape ability: You are invulnerable and invisible for
five 10 seconds, then return with a random 30-second buff. Also Add If you have the Dreamscape ability, double the invulnerable time and buff.
In line with Greater Master of Flowers: you are affected by Emptiness for 5 minutes. Emptiness "If you have the Elusive Target feat, double the ability."


This way it would be a valid Epic Moment and not set you up to be a Piñata, as oppose to, how it is now, to getting a chance to get one shotted in the hopes of it going off, or you going off as a soulstone in Reapers. (Right now, it is a game of Chicken to see who gets hit, you or the mob.)

At least with Cut the Strings: You control the outcome.
In Mass Frog: You attempt to do the damage.
Same goes for Weird/Ruin Intensified....your not waiting for mobs to hit you for a special action to take place, and if they have to hit us, it only makes sense that we have a protection for the Epic Moment duration.

What the Epic Moment should allow is have it give the ability to Assassinate(for assassins) and Mortal Fear(15%) ability (given to Melee/Range attackd) on hit for 10 seconds. Along with the 10/20 second Dreamscape Protection in the 30 seconds of the Epic Moment.

----------

And a respectable replacement for Weird would be the same one minute cooldown but have you be able to do an AOE Assassinate :


Weird: Multiselector:
  • Consumed by Shadows: From Sneak: Active attack. While Dual wielding a One-Handed Weapon your attacks and Assassinate* can Strikethrough. When your attacks can Strikethrough, every attack has a chance ("Strikethrough Chance") to hit an additional target. Enemy also must make a Will save versus 20 + highest ability score + Assassinate or be beset by your shadow. Enemies affected have their Armor Class set to 0, and when they are hit, they take a stack of Vulnerability. Duration: 12 seconds. Cooldown: 1 minute. Note: This ability requires the character to have the Stealth feat active ("in stealth") to use it. EDP Cost: 1 *If you have the Assassinate ability your Assassinate is also now affected by Strikethrough.

  • Weird: The Weird spell is added to your spellbook as a level 9 spell if you are a Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid, Wizard, or Favored Soul, or a level 6 spell if you are an Artificer, Alchemist, Bard, Rogue or Warlock. Requires the ability to cast spells of those levels. EDP Cost: 2
Weird: A targeted foe and all nearby enemies are subject to a Phantasmal Killer effect, with a DC20 + highest of INT/WIS/CHA mod + Illusion spell bonuses to prevent the death.

----------------------------------------


Did you know we use to be able to have mechanical pets, like Artificer, in Mechanic Tree but they took it away.
We also had an ability called Cheat Death where we had a chance to resurrect ourselves, Monks have it in Rise of the Phoenix, they took it away from us.
Our last Core in Assassin gave the ability of Vorpal on Attacks, again that was removed.
 
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VinoeWhines

Well-known member
Strikethrough should be put in Shadow Dancer Tree and Rogue Assassin Tree as well to boost it up.

Assassinate was working great before the double strike nerf took away the ability to double strike with each dagger, essentially getting 3 mobs and a very, very rare 4th mob, if off hand doublestrike hit.
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
So you agree with my statement, as I don't know why you questioned it, in the first place, when I said, "I see videos where cooldown on casters are 4 seconds." which I was stating to Deathtitan and then you quoted me.

Intention to ask was simple - i wanna know what exactly spell you mean.

All I was bringing out is that the game allows for reduce cooldowns to exist.

You confuse warm with soft, comparing ability with a spell. You have to compare comparable things - ability with ability. If you compare PK ability from DG tree or Archmage tree with Assassinate ability - all those ability cannot be augmented with reduced CD. PK as spell with full metamagic applied cost 80 SP, Assassinate cost nothing. PK is single target spell, Assassinate is subject Strikethrough, irk, and can be applied to more than one target, spells can have 40% CD reduction with full investment from PL, high-costed AP spend in suboptimal ED trees and suboptimal for DC casters filigree set, you wanna 50% CD reduction for free or almost for free (because you wanna this reduction be on same optimal for Rogue ED tree). Warm and soft, apples and oranges...

I never specifically mentioned that Weird was six seconds to cast. You assumed I was referring to that. I wasn't.

Sure, because previously you and Death Titan discussed about mass AoE IK like Weird/Wail. So my assumption would be legal. But I didn't assume it - you did it yourself, just now. I just ask what spell you mean exactly, it's all. ;)

My complaint is that Shadow Dancer blocks Weird(Mass PK) from Rogues,

Weird is spell, not ability, Rogue not caster class. If your compliant about non-caster classes not have equivalent ability as multiselector choice - it's fully legit.

when Shadow Dancer is a Stealth/Rogue Tree specifically

No. It's only your presupposition. SВ is Illusion/Shadow three, not Assassin/Stealth Rogue.

Shadow Dancer would have Weird DC be based off of my Assassinate

No. Spell cannot and should not be based non-caster DC. But if you wanna equivalent non-caster ability - again, your demand completely legit.
 
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Tuxedomanwashere

Well-known member
One of the problems I see is that without filling in the stealth killing niche, each other destiny is simply better than Shadowdancer for what it does. Fatesinger, Primal, and Grandmaster offer better AoE instakills (Cut the Strings, Mass Frog, and everything is nothing). Shiradi offers better misdirection (charms and mass confusion with no save). Excluding the bonafide spellcaster destinies, the other destinies have better forms of CC (if you count the blind from Shadowdancer as a CC). Pretty much every other spellcaster destiny is better than Shadowdancer for spell damage. Fury offers better recovery (damage reduction and heal with Primal Scream). Dreadnought, Fury, and Grandmaster offer better damage. Heck, Grandmaster even allows you to tumble through monsters, which is something that you should probably be able to do in shadow form.

Some changes I'd suggest, making it more thematic with a darkness/shadow tree:

(Core 2) Step Through Shadows: Dimension Door SLA. Cooldown of 2 minutes. Passive: When you go invisible, for 4 seconds you gain Improved Invisibility (is not removed on attack/spellcast). When you use Shadow Veil (Ninja Spy), Improved Invisibility lasts 8 seconds instead. This may happen once per minute.

(Core 3) The Darkest Luck: You have Evasion, normal Evasion rules apply. If you have Evasion already, you gain Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1. If you have Improved Evasion already and have Epic Reflexes, increase your MRR cap by 10.

(Core 4) Cut to the Soul: +3% dodge bypass, +3% fortification bypass, +3% damage versus the helpless. When you cast the spell Trap the Soul or activate an assassinate ability (instakill that benefits from assassinate bonuses), you automatically applies 3 stacks of the Darkness debuff even if the enemy survives. Darkness debuff: You are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 PRR and -3 MRR per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks.

(T1) Stealthy: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 Hide and Move Silently. Rank 3: Gain the Hide in Plain Sight feat. If you already have the Hide in Plain Sight feat, you may keep it while moving in stealth.

(T2) Shadowform (Mantle): Grants +10% Action bonus to movement speed, 25% Insight bonus to Sneak Speed, 25% Insight bonus to Cast Run Speed, and grants ghost touch. On sneak attack, you deal 2 strength damage up to once per second. If you have the Crippling Strike Feat, this is upgraded to 1d6 strength damage.

(T2) Sleight of Hand: Active Ability. Bluff a target on a failed Will save (DC 20 + highest ability score + assassinate). Your attacks and spells against this target deal a -1 penalty to saves, stacking up to 5 times.

(T2) Shadowstrike (Epic Strike): Reduced the cooldown from 15 seconds to 10 seconds.

(T3) Depths of Darkness: While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you gain 25% Incorporeality and 25% Concealment. You can tumble through enemies. Your spells can now deal 2 strength damage up to once per second. If you have the Crippling Strike Feat, this is upgraded to 1d6 strength damage.

(T3) Paranoia (Epic Strike Upgrade): Attacks and spells shaken enemies with no save.

(T4) Pierce the Gloom: Bring down from T4 to T3.

(T3 -> T4) Grim Precision: +1/2/3 Spell Penetration, and you bypass 5/10/15% enemy Fortification. Rank 3: Treat blind enemies as if they have an AC of 0.

(T4) Dark Mercy: Your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle now grants you +5/10/15% Helplessness damage. Gain life when you deal sneak attack damage, as the vampirism ability.

(T4) Improved Paranoia (Epic Strike Upgrade): On vorpal or 10% chance on spellcast: confuse enemy for 6 seconds with no save.

(T4) Bring Darkness: When you roll a natural 20 on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, applying the Darkness debuff. If you have the feat First Blood, you trigger the extra damage of First Blood whenever you apply the Darkness debuff regardless of hit points, and First Blood now triggers on Harmful Spellcasts. Darkness: The target is no longer immune to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 Physical Resistance Rating and -3 Magical Resistance Rating per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks.

(T4) From the Shadows: Assassinate Ability. From a stealthed position, dissolve into shadows, before pouncing on an enemy in front of you (an animation somewhat similar to the Razorclaw's "Pounce" or "Go For the Kill" from Nature's Warrior). Target must make a fortitude save against being slain (20 + highest ability score + assassinate). 20 second cooldown. Requires being in sneak mode to use.

(T5) Consumed by Shadows: Active ability. Non-boss enemies around you must make a Fort save against being blinded and a Will save against being confused, and corporeal creatures must make a Reflex save against being immobilized (DC 20 + highest ability score + assassinate). Bosses instead have their AC set to 0 on a failed Fort save and gain stacks of vulnerability when hit on a failed Will save. Duration: 10 seconds. Enemies have a recurring save to break out of the immobilized state every 2 seconds. Cooldown: 1 minute. Passive: Confused enemies gain a stack of Vulnerability when struck, and your attacks and spells against targets that have a strength of 0 slay them with no save, up to once per second.

(T5) Greater Shadowform: While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you float as if you had Feather Fall, gain +20 Hide and Move Silently, and no longer trigger pressure plate or bear traps. (Note: As a result of the floating, you are also immune to Trip and Knockdown effects.) When your HP falls below 50%, you gain the effects of Dark Discorporation. This effect may only trigger once every 60 seconds.

(T5) Shadow Mastery: Epic Moment: Dissolve into a whorl of shadow, leaving your corporeal form behind. While in this form, you are considered Sneaking and Invisible regardless of what you do. You also gain 3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, 50% Incorporeality, as well as the effects your Epic Strike as if they had been fully trained and upgraded. When non-boss enemies miss you in this state, they are slain by their fear, automatically taking a Phantasmal Killer effect with no save. Activating Consumed by Shadows while under the effect of Shadow Mastery sets the strength of targets immobilized by Consumed by Shadows to 0. Duration: 30 seconds. Cooldown: 5 minutes.
 
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Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
(Core 3) The Darkest Luck: You have Evasion, normal Evasion rules apply. If you have Evasion already, you gain Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1. If you have Improved Evasion already and have Epic Reflexes, increase your MRR cap by 10.

Very good per se, seems not very thematic for me.

(T2) Shadowform (Mantle): Grants +10% Action bonus to movement speed, 25% Insight bonus to Sneak Speed, 25% Insight bonus to Cast Run Speed, and grants ghost touch. On sneak attack, you deal 2 strength damage up to once per second. If you have the Crippling Strike Feat, this is upgraded to 1d6 strength damage.

Pure Rogue ability. SD is not Rogue ED. No.

(T2) Sleight of Hand: Active Ability. Bluff a target on a failed Will save (DC 20 + highest ability score + assassinate). Your attacks and spells against this target deal a -1 penalty to saves, stacking up to 5 times.

Same as above. No. But very appealing. But... no. 8)

(T3) Depths of Darkness: While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you gain 25% Incorporeality and 25% Concealment. You can tumble through enemies. Your spells can now deal 2 strength damage up to once per second. If you have the Crippling Strike Feat, this is upgraded to 1d6 strength damage.

Same as above.

T3) Paranoia (Epic Strike Upgrade): Attacks and spells shaken enemies with no save.

Paranoia is good as it. Don't fix something that's not broken. ;)

(T4) Dark Mercy: Your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle now grants you +5/10/15% Helplessness damage. Gain life when you deal sneak attack damage, as the vampirism ability.

Solid no. It's undead vampire theme and ability, leave it to dead and undead. :)

(T4) Improved Paranoia (Epic Strike Upgrade): On vorpal or 10% chance on spellcast: confuse enemy for 6 seconds with no save.

Again, Paranoia is good as it.

(T4) From the Shadows: Assassinate Ability. From a stealthed position, dissolve into shadows, before pouncing on an enemy in front of you (an animation somewhat similar to the Razorclaw's "Pounce" or "Go For the Kill" from Nature's Warrior). Target must make a fortitude save against being slain (20 + highest ability score + assassinate). 20 second cooldown. Requires being in sneak mode to use.

Currently it's under-wings for the poor. You wanna convert it to another spring attack for melee. I wanna my wings to fly over obstacles, not to fly to enemy. And what about ranged? If you wanna assassination ability in tree ( and i must remind, SD not Rogue ED, but Illusion/Shadow) how about give all version, ranged and magical include?

(T5) Greater Shadowform: While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you float as if you had Feather Fall, gain +20 Hide and Move Silently, and no longer trigger pressure plate or bear traps. (Note: As a result of the floating, you are also immune to Trip and Knockdown effects.) When your HP falls below 50%, you gain the effects of Dark Discorporation. This effect may only trigger once every 60 seconds.
Too vampiric themed again. Shadow Veil-like effect must bу better, and also here be synergy with your updated version Core 2.

(T5) Consumed by Shadows: Active ability. Non-boss enemies around you must make a Fort save against being blinded and a Will save against being confused, and corporeal creatures must make a Reflex save against being immobilized (DC 20 + highest ability score + assassinate). Bosses instead have their AC set to 0 on a failed Fort save and gain stacks of vulnerability when hit on a failed Will save. Duration: 10 seconds. Enemies have a recurring save to break out of the immobilized state every 2 seconds. Cooldown: 1 minute. Passive: Confused enemies gain a stack of Vulnerability when struck, and your attacks and spells against targets that have a strength of 0 slay them with no save, up to once per second.
Personally i pref old version, it just must be Weird for non-caster (DC 20 + highest ability score + assassinate).

All your other suggestion very good really. (y)
 

Fisto Mk I

Well-known member
Fatesinger, Primal, and Grandmaster offer better AoE instakills (Cut the Strings, Mass Frog, and everything is nothing).
Pure nonsense. Weird is spell and can be boosted with up to 40% CD reduction. All other from your sample - no. And i have doubt about they DС too... ;)
 
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Tuxedomanwashere

Well-known member
Very good per se, seems not very thematic for me.
I'll concede that this one isn't necessarily thematic. It's just building up on something you already have. You get evasion, then you can upgrade if you have that to Improved Evasion, then you upgrade to No auto fail if you have that. I just took it further if you already don't auto fail.

Pure Rogue ability. SD is not Rogue ED. No.

Same as above. No. But very appealing. But... no. 8)
The base strength damage is for everyone. Of course a rogue upgrades it, but I made consideration for other classes that are able to sneak around. For example, the upgrade to the Hiding in Plane Sight benefits rangers and Dark Hunters. The upgrade to the Improved Invisibility benefits Ninja Spies. I don't see why certain classes can't perform in a role better than others. The tumble portion actually has a place in stealth as well. If you get your tumble high enough, you can dive through monsters, and provided your hide and move silently is high enough as well, do so without being detected.

As for the bluff, this is an effect that enables sneak attack. Rogues, Rangers, and even monks already have abilities that enable sneak attack (which is a decent portion of the destiny). Classes that have bluff as a class skill also are able to, but for those that don't have those options they're somewhat stuck. It's also more thematic insofar as sticking to the name than what we have now (Sleight of Hand refers to misdirecting people's attention to one hand to obscure the fact that you are doing something with your other hand, i.e. deception), but I'm open to suggestions.
Paranoia is good as it. Don't fix something that's not broken. ;)

Again, Paranoia is good as it.
Would you mind explaining to me how Paranoia is good as is? Also, the current ability for Paranoia is not very thematic I'd say. Usually a paranoiac walks around thinking the people around them have some sinister intentions. If you aren't shaken by the constant thought of people trying to poison your food (hyperbole) and confused about who your real friends and your real enemies are, then perhaps you aren't truly paranoid ;)
Solid no. It's undead vampire theme and ability, leave it to dead and undead. :)
I could live without it. Just built that on what a different poster said.
Currently it's under-wings for the poor. You wanna convert it to another spring attack for melee. I wanna my wings to fly over obstacles, not to fly to enemy. And what about ranged? If you wanna assassination ability in tree ( and i must remind, SD not Rogue ED, but Illusion/Shadow) how about give all version, ranged and magical include?
I'm trying to convert it to an assassinate ability for those that don't have it normally. Unless you really want to consider Falconry, which doesn't require sneaking and is a much larger trade-off to classes other than the three I mentioned that would be trying to play a sneaky build (although QP also doesn't require sneaking I guess) . But I don't think it would be bad to settle for a multiselector. For wings though, you'd probably be much better off just getting the wings from EA, since that has a much shorter CD and also costs quite a bit less. As for a ranged version, I was keeping in line with the stealth mentality. Normally shooting or throwing a weapon breaks you out of sneak, and assassinate abilities in melee offer a much greater penalty for failure (with ranged, you're already far away, so you don't have to reposition much to lose aggro or move monsters around). Not sure if the balance between ranged/melee instakill would be handled well, but I'm all ears.
Too vampiric themed again. Shadow Veil-like effect must bу better, and also here be synergy with your updated version Core 2.
It's actually not a wholly undead vampire themed ability. First of all, warlocks get it. Second of all, the ability reads that you dissolve into a swarm of bat-like "shadows". Since you're in shadow form, I'd say that's appropriate. As for Shadow Veil, to be clear, there are enhancements in my suggestion that offer different bonuses based off of the class you play. Remember how you were saying that it's not Rogue? I agree. That's why Rangers and Dark Hunters have an enhancement that benefits them, and monks get an ability that benefits them, and Rogue gets an ability that benefits them. Heck, there's still an enhancement that benefits Warlocks, Wizards, and Sorcs (with Trap the Soul). There is a baseline that I think should be met, but I don't think that all classes should benefit the same amount in the same way from the tree, otherwise what's the point of diversity?
Personally i pref old version, it just must be Weird for non-caster (DC 20 + highest ability score + assassinate).
I don't see how the shadows are supposed to scare you to death. When I think shadows, I think something that obscures you in darkness without knowing where anything is (hence the blind and confusion). The immobilization comes from the "consumed" part. The shadows are literally wrapping around your enemies. I don't really like the idea of a Weird for non-casters because it wouldn't really set the casters and non-casters apart insofar as how they handle large groups of monsters. With the Consumed by Shadow changes, it still gives that sense of picking the monsters apart rather than simply AoE killing them. The set-up with the Epic Moment is also a nice little tactical consideration, since you can only engineer that AoE instakill scenario every 5 minutes, So you have to choose whether you just want to merely hinder monsters and risk retaliation or if you want to get rid of them outright.

All your other suggestion very good really. (y)
Thank you. Please feel free to offer any amendments to my proposal as you see fit.
Pure nonsense. Weird is spell and can be boosted with up to 40% CD reduction. All other from your sample - no. And i have doubt about they DС too... ;)

It's not nonsense, really. Even if you reduce the cooldown to 36 seconds, I don't think that saves it, certainly not when you consider traveling up the tree to get it. Whereas for Primal you have some nice spells, a mantle that allows you to basically never run out of spellpoints, extra stats, a recovery ability, and reductions in metas. Whereas Grandmaster offers a huge bonus to absorptions, a bonus to movement speed that is usually stacking, the ability to tumble through monsters if you get surrounded, and a very good epic strike for clearing trash. Whereas fatesinger offers spellcost reduction, really short CD epic strikes, the ability to negate ASF with the mantle, an extra CC that you can use repeatedly, and extra stats to land your abilities. This is before considering the T5 abilities you can pick up.

But let's not even talk about working the way up to the tree. What about the instakill abilities themselves. Weird does not work on any monsters immune to PK. It's restricted to highest spell lvl (whereas the other instakills can be used regardless of class and level splits) and it offers 2 saves, will and fort, which means that it's harder to land on both divines and melee. It's also illusion and subject to SR like PK is. While we have Feydark Illusionist, illusion is still not really the best school to spec for.

Mass Frog is transmutation, which is also a weaker school for casters that aren't alchemist, but at the very least it can be used to get rid of some annoying constructs/undead that you don't want to deal with (and they tend to have low fortitude). This one is subject to SR though.

EiN works off of stun, gives you a chance to complete ignore physical damage, and paralyzes even if they make the save. It also can be used on almost everything and bypasses SR.

Cut the Strings bypasses SR, dances almost everything (including reapers), is a will save, which pairs well with the fort save CC you have in G. Shout and gives you a CC for both low-fort and low-will mobs, and doesn't have the 6 monster limit like most of these IK abilities because you have to actually damage monsters afterwards to kill them.

Even bringing weird down to 36 seconds has an opportunity cost to it. First of all, you have to go at least 22 points in DI (which I suppose isn't the worst choice) and would have to remain in the Draconic mantle. You then have to set aside 4 filigrees for another 10% reduction, and toggle the EPL for another 10% (and of course, you can get another 10% in Shadowdancer). While it's certainly doable, I think you're looking at a small subset of builds that would actually capitalize on reducing the cooldown that much that also would go up T5 Shadowdancer (because they'd pretty much be a bonafide caster, but one that would be worse than other casters under most circumstances). If I was going that far up DI and slotting filigrees for cooldown reductions, wouldn't it be better for me to just go T5 DI and pick up Ruin and G. Ruin with Ruin Intensified for some high single target damage and just clear the trash with a mass hold/BoGW + Dragon Breath and finish off the stragglers with my spells that run a reduced CD? Even if you make a consideration for hybrid builds, it doesn't work well because being in the DI mantle precludes you from benefiting from other mantles, and slotting the cooldown reduction on spells precludes you from benefitting from filigrees that would augment your ability to do melee or ranged combat.

I'm not trying to sound so negative, I'm just genuinely curious if being able to the cooldown to 36 seconds actually makes going up T5 Shadowdancer and picking up Weird actually makes up for the opportunity costs, and in what way if that is the case.
 
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VinoeWhines

Well-known member
Intention to ask was simple - i wanna know what exactly spell you mean.
The Spell I mean is a general cooldown on spells, not one specific spell And the reason why I brought that up was as a suggestion as to having an ability that can lower cooldowns on abilities such as Assassinate. There are cooldowns in Mechanic Tree for Core 5: Expert builder - Cooldowns of Alchemical Trap attacks are reduced by 20% setting Traps.

You confuse warm with soft, comparing ability with a spell. You have to compare comparable things - ability with ability. If you compare PK ability from DG tree or Archmage tree with Assassinate ability - all those ability cannot be augmented with reduced CD.

Again no confusion, warm and soft is not the same thing when comparing cooldowns.
Cooldowns: it does exist in other Trees for abilities as well.
Example again:
Rogue Mechanic - Core 5: Expert builder - Cooldowns of Alchemical Trap attacks are reduced by 20% setting Traps.
There is also Linguistics that you can use to reduce Bluff and other Social Skills to lower it -10% cooldowns.

So it is not only Spells that you falsely believe get only cooldowns. Other abilities do also, and my suggestion for Shadow Dancer was to have an ability to lower cooldown on Assassinate, just like other abilities get cooldowns in their Trees.
Even in Shadow Dancer Tee: Shadowcaster: -10% Spell Cooldowns. Immunity to Energy Drain.
Could of been in there: -10% Assassinate Cooldowns, +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. Immunity to Energy Drain.
There shouldn't be any complaints about it, as Casters can get cooldowns to their Instakill spells as well. Like I said, even down to 4 to 6 seconds.

PK as spell with full metamagic applied cost 80 SP, Assassinate cost nothing. PK is single target spell... Warm and soft, apples and oranges...
You say Assassinate costs nothing. But it costs allot actually. Maybe not Spell Points(which 80SP is nothing when you get free +250 SP Cookies in R10 after killing every other mob).
Assassinate costs: Time and Safety. You have to actually spend it.
[0ne] sneaking(a slow movement) to get close enough(touch range) to apply
[Two] a physical attack(can also miss the attack, it happens sometimes)
[Three] You are within the mobs striking distance of getting hit back, or get hit by a cleave the mob is hitting someone else.
[Four] Cooldown is 12 seconds, so you are in a bad spot if your Assassinate fails. No ability to Crowd Control. Which is something I said should of been in Shadow Dancer, just like other Melee Trees get Crowd Control Stuns in their Trees, Shadow Dancer should of had as well in some form.
It use to have Shadow Manipulation. Once CC to one mob. They took it away and gave it to Shiradi in Beguile Charm, and it didn't even need it as a safe Range character compared to Melee(more dangerous playstyle).
No warm and soft, apples and oranges when you become a Soulstone in dungeon being in more dangerous position.

If they kept Shadow Dancer like before update and just lower Meld Into Nothing down from 100% dodge down to 40% dodge, I would not complain about our Tree, since before we had nice defensive abilities and another form of Assassinate(Executioner Shot/Strike) in the Tree.


Sure, because previously you and Death Titan discussed about mass AoE IK like Weird/Wail. So my assumption would be legal. But I didn't assume it - you did it yourself, just now. I just ask what spell you mean exactly, it's all.
Deathtitan was saying how their toon was having a hard time casting their spells to me and the low DC of the spells.
Example said:
Deathtitan, "I invested in Transmutation for my druid and I can reach 113 DC, that's not enough for mass frog in high reaper"
Deathtitan, "I also invested in illusion DC and I reach 112 DC: that's also not enough for Weird in high reaper."
Deathtitan, "I invested in necromancy and I reach 112 DC: that's not enough for finger of death in high reaper."
I never discussed his spells, I made a point about how Shadow Dancer should be, having Weird, available for Rogues or any Melee just like I can get "Caster" Spells/Abilities for other Trees, like Mass Frog, Cut the Strings, and I have used Ruin Intensified as a Rogue.
Again I wasn't making a discussion on Spells and their cooldown, I was just comparing that spells get to take advantage of cooldowns and that their should be more options for cooldowns on Tactics, like Assassinate in the upper Trees as well.

Assassinate is subject Strikethrough, irk, and can be applied to more than one target, spells can have 40% CD reduction with full investment from PL, high-costed AP spend in suboptimal ED trees and suboptimal for DC casters filigree set, you wanna 50% CD reduction for free or almost for free (because you wanna this reduction be on same optimal for Rogue ED tree).
Assassinate is not subject to Strikethrough. They removed Double Strike extra attack so you can no longer Assassinate 3 mobs like before and a very rare 4 mobs if Offhand Doublestrike would land it's Doublestrike.
Now it is hard coded to only 2 mobs, if you are able to land your offhand attack.
It would be great if Strikethrough was available for Assassinate, since the watered down Assassinate and you use to be able to Assassinate 3 mobs before.
I never said to make Assassinate a 4 second cooldown but it could could of been -10% and add -5% fillagree for -15% cooldown.
It wouldn't be for free as you would have to choose and spend points in it, just like you do for cooldowns with other things.
Besides what would you care if Assassinate is 4 seconds. Casters get about 5-7 Instakills if they build for it, plus Mass CC's as well from Range.

Weird is spell, not ability, Rogue not caster class. If your compliant about non-caster classes not have equivalent ability as multiselector choice - it's fully legit.
Rogue not a Caster, but as Rogue, I can CAST Mass Frog, Ruin, Greater Ruin, Ruin Intensified, Burst of Glacial Wraith, Hell Ball(Intelligence DC), Cut the Strings, Daunting Roar(before)
Also I can do Everything Is Nothing, Dire Charge.
I just can't select my own Tree? in Weird? Were every other Tree I can choose EVERYTHING. Every - Thing.

No. It's only your presupposition. SВ is Illusion/Shadow three, not Assassin/Stealth Rogue.
It is not me presupposing, Shadow Dancer was the home for many Stealth Rogues, the Tree was full of Assassinate abilities, Sneak Attack Dice and Stealthy things before.
I am not saying the Tree was ONLY for Assassins, but any character that wanted to use Stealth and Sneak Attack would go to that Tree.
Now the Tree brought a Force/Illusion Caster to it, that was not done well with the split of Stealth/Sneak/Assassin Tree.
The Caster part of Shadow Dancer, should of gone in Magus of the Eclipse Tree and would of fit better there.
Shadow Dancer Tree had before: Executioner's Strike/Shot a 30% chance to instakill a mob with a 12 second cooldown. Based off of Assassinate.

No. Spell cannot and should not be based non-caster DC. But if you wanna equivalent non-caster ability - again, your demand completely legit.
Here, is where I am open to a better choice for Weird, than to have Consume by Shadows. Original Shadow Dancer, Consume would of been the logical choice.
Consume(Implosion):
Create a field around yourself that lasts 10 seconds. Every 2 seconds, the aura causes:
One nearby corporeal enemy to be devoured by its own shadow and die
Fortitude DC: 10 + Character Level + Higher of Dexterity and Intelligence Modifier + Assassination Bonus negates the death
On a successful save, they take 80-120 damage

But if you remember Shadow Dancer Epic Strike(Spell/Range/Melee) is based off of Caster DC or Rogue Assassinate DC.

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let me reply with showing you Shadow Dancer Epic Destiny Tree how it was as a base to this reply: I don't know when you started ddo but Shadow Dancer although not stating it was a Rogue Epic Destiny, usually only melee Rogues or Stealthy players picked this Epic Destiny Tree and Twisted other things from other Trees.

I will also highlight here what Shadow Dancer had, In Green, as you think, the things I or others mentioned shouldn't be in Shadow Dancer now.

This is to show what Shadow Dancer was prior to the Identity Crisis it is now.​

 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member

Innate abilities​

  • Granted automatically as you level up in the destiny.
  • This Epic Destiny grants you +10 Melee Power and +6 Ranged Power per Innate ability. (Total: 60 MP, 36 RP)
Shadow Training I Icon.jpg Shadow Training I: Passive Bonus: You gain +1 Sneak Attack die and +10 Melee and +6 Ranged Power for each level of Shadowdancer.
EDP Cost: 0Ranks: AutomaticProgression: 0No requirements
Shadow Training II Icon.jpg Shadow Training II: Activate: For 30 seconds, while sneaking you gain: Full movement speed, +5 Attack bonus to-hit with Sneak Attacks, +2 Sneak Attack dice, +3 Hide, +3 Move Silently.
EDP Cost: 0Ranks: AutomaticProgression: 4No requirements
Shadow Training III Icon.jpg Shadow Training III: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 2 seconds) Toggle to generate 20% less melee and ranged threat.
EDP Cost: 0Ranks: AutomaticProgression: 8No requirements
Shadow Training IV Icon.jpg Shadow Training IV: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 45 seconds) activate this ability to use Shadow Walk up to 5 times per rest. Also, while using weapons that qualify for Weapon Finesse, you gain 3% profane bonus to your chance to doublestrike. This doublestrike bonus applies to attacks made by a dagger, handaxe, kama, kukri, light hammer, light mace, light pick, rapier, shortsword, sickle, when unarmed or in druid animal form.
EDP Cost: 0Ranks: AutomaticProgression: 12No requirements
Shadow Training V Icon.jpg Shadow Training V: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 1 minute, 5 seconds) activate this ability to use Dimension Door 5 times per rest. The cooldown for Shadow Training II ability is reduced to 3 minutes.
EDP Cost: 0Ranks: AutomaticProgression: 16No requirements
Shadow Mastery Icon.jpg Shadow Mastery: Passive Bonus: You now have Evasion. In addition, when you roll a natural 20 on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, granting it 5% vulnerability to physical damage and removing its immunity to sneak attack for a short duration, if applicable (debuff lasts 12 seconds DDO Forums). You gain +2 to your assassinate DC.
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member

Tier One​

  • Abilities in this tier can be purchased after taking the Shadowdancer destiny. All abilities below have 1 rank unless otherwise listed.
Stealthy.jpg Stealthy: Passive Bonus: +[2/4/6] to Hide and Move Silently skills. +[2/4/6] to Assassinate DC (if you have Assassinate). Hide in Plain Sight at rank 3. (THIS SHOULD NOT OF BEEN SPLIT UP IN TREE NOW)
Shadow Lance Icon.jpg Shadow Lance: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 30 seconds) Throws 3 spears, each dealing [4/6/8]d8 + [18/24/30] unholy damage and has a chance to blind target (Fort DC [14/16/18] + character level + higher of Dex or Int modifier + Assassination bonuses). This damage scales with 400% of the higher of your melee or ranged power.
Acrobatic.jpg Acrobatic: Passive Bonus: +[2/4/6] to Balance, Jump and Tumble and a +[3/6/9] bonus to reflex while tumbling.
EDP Cost: 1Ranks: 3Progression: 0No requirements
Technician.jpg Technician: Passive Bonus: +[2/4/6] to Search, Spot, Disable Device, Open Lock and flanking bonus to attack.
EDP Cost: 1Ranks: 3Progression: 0No requirements
Dex or Int.gif Dexterity/Intelligence: Passive Bonus: +1 Dexterity/Intelligence.
EDP Cost: 2Ranks: 1Progression: 0No requirements
 

VinoeWhines

Well-known member

Tier Two​

  • After 4 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.
Escape Notice Icon.jpg Escape Notice: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 1 minute) Triggers a Diplomacy effect that uses the Hide skill instead of the Diplomacy skill.
EDP Cost: 2Ranks: 1Progression: 4No requirements
Lithe.jpg Lithe: Passive Bonus: +[2/4/6] reflex saves, AC and light armor Max Dex Bonus.
EDP Cost: 1Ranks: 3Progression: 4No requirements
Skill Mastery.jpg Skill Mastery: Passive Bonus: +1 stacking to all skills.
EDP Cost: 1Ranks: 1Progression: 4Requires: Technician
Dex or Int.gif Dexterity/Intelligence: Passive Bonus: +1 Dexterity/Intelligence.
EDP Cost: 2Ranks: 1Progression: 4No requirements

Tier Three​

  • After 8 points are spent, abilities in this tier can be purchased.
Cloak of Shadows Icon.jpg Cloak of Shadows: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 2 minutes) Activate to cloak in darkness, granting immunity to light and negative damage for 5 minutes, or until 120 damage have been absorbed.
EDP Cost: 2Ranks: 1Progression: 8No requirements
Shrouding Shot Icon.jpg Shrouding Strike/Shot: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 6 seconds) Melee or Ranged Attack: Perform an attack with +[1/2/3][W] damage. On hit: Apply a stack of Improved Destruction.
EDP Cost: 1Ranks: 3Progression: 8No requirements
Meld into darkness.jpg Meld Into Darkness: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 2 minutes) +100% Enhancement bonus to dodge for [9/12/15] seconds.
EDP Cost: 1Ranks: 3Progression: 8No requirements
Grim Precision Icon.jpg Grim Precision: Passive Bonus: Bypass [5/10/15]% enemy fortification and [1/2/3]% enemy dodge.
EDP Cost: 1Ranks: 3Progression: 8No requirements
Dex or Int.gif Dexterity/Intelligence: Passive Bonus: +1 Dexterity/Intelligence.
EDP Cost: 2Ranks: 1Progression: 8No requirements
 
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