When devs stopped paying attention to sneaky type, I stopped paying.
..... its my least used destiny tree. i think I've played 1 build where I liked SD for the SA dice. but I feel I can get better stuff than the sneak attack dice, like the action boosts from LD or the stun DCs from grandmaster. .....
yeah i know the low hanging stuff is good, I just never seem to take it lol. i much prefer dreadnaught or fatesinger for melee, and for casters I do 3 trees of my main element, which is never force, so I just end up never using itWith the exception of the destiny mantle, shadowdancer has some fairly decent Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3 abilities. ( Evasion, spell cooldown reduction, energy drain immunity, sneak attack, threat reduction, nightshield, light armor max dex, etc ) As such I've had multiple builds which use this destiny as a secondary. It's tier 4 and tier 5 where it falls apart and I've never used this destiny as a primary.
While the Cause of adding caster to the Tree doesn't seem to be the biggest problem, it is actually the stone that caused the Avalanche of the Destruction of the Epic Destiny Tree Shadow Dancer. Tier 4 and Tier 5 and Destiny Mantles, I whole heartedly agree are weak. The first order of business should be to remove the caster part of the Tree and put Magician/Illusionists where it belongs and that is Magus(Magush=Magician) of the Eclipse to clear the footers of this tree to properly build it out.While the caster vs assassin bipolar tree issue has always haunted Shadowdancer that isn't the destiny's biggest problem. It's problem is that it's Tier 4 abilities, Tier 5 abilities, and destiny mantle are all weak. Moving illusionist to Magus won't improve the destiny for assassins as long as those problems are unsolved.
Though I can understand that the original Meld into Darkness 95% Dodge was a cause of complain by many,ive read through a lot of this thread, and while I don't think the old shadowdancer was balanced, the new shadowdancer is even less balanced. lets be honest, old meld was a little OP, and executioners strike was very OP for its cooldown,
This 1000% Least Used Main Epic Destiny Tree by EVERYONE.....even Stealth/Rogue players. We can't even get Weird as a Rogue, while Rogues can get Cut the Strings, Everything is Nothing, Mass Frog, Time Stop, Ruin Intensified and ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING from every other Epic Destiny Tree.i generally don't agree with people asking for buffs, but in this case I feel shadowdancer needs to be better. its my least used destiny tree.
Bingo! "....As such As such I've had multiple builds which use this destiny as a secondary. It's tier 4 and tier 5 where it falls apart and I've never used this destiny as a primary." - Elves United.With the exception of the destiny mantle, shadowdancer has some fairly decent Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3 abilities. ( Evasion, spell cooldown reduction, energy drain immunity, sneak attack, threat reduction, nightshield, light armor max dex, etc ) As such I've had multiple builds which use this destiny as a secondary. It's tier 4 and tier 5 where it falls apart and I've never used this destiny as a primary.
Ya a Shop Towel.This tree is a good 13 point spend, for SA Dice, and evasion.
That low hanging fruit of the loom underwear makes great rags.yeah i know the low hanging stuff is good, I just never seem to take it lol. i much prefer dreadnaught or fatesinger for melee, and for casters I do 3 trees of my main element, which is never force, so I just end up never using it
The Struggle is real - you are not alone....I'm really struggling to find a really good epic destiny that leans into the high dex/int rogue archetype with a focus on dealing with traps and staying alive..
This is soo true, the Tree should be called Shadow Dip: This Epic Destiny is a complement to your Main chips you already possess.Shadowdancer is just plain bad for the main people it's supposed to support. The only real good it is at this point is for a very minor dip for people that don't get evasion otherwise.
a 1,000,000,000%(Trillion) NO CAP!!!!!!One of the big things people fail to point out about the old meld is that the 95% dodge in itself wasn't busted. It was the fact that it was absolutely abused in stacked defenses.
When an Assassin is in melee range and dies in a single hit most of the time... that 95% dodge is basically a 5% chance of death while they're skirmishing.
When the Tank that can easily take a few hits gets a 95% dodge chance.. or when a healer that can heal themselves up between hits gets a 95% dodge chance gets it... then it becomes super powerful.
The problem is that Assassins and other dodge based characters need SOMETHING to be able to sustain themselves in a fight and they still have almost never addressed this point.
Instead they just claim it as too powerful and nerf it.
I figure I'd weigh in and throw my own rebalanced version of Shadowdancer into the ring. Unlike some of you all; I'm willing to play within the current vision rather than pining for the rose tinted glasses of old Shadowdancer. (Even though I miss it.) My general goal/thought process was to keep what's in the destiny currently, expand upon it, and encompass the classes/playstyles that touch Shadowdancer ideally. Oh and most importantly, to change Weird to be like Mass Frog. Because seriously, why can't non-casters make use of this ability but a fighter can take mass frog?
Core 1 (level 20): Shadow Training: You gain the Magical Training feat if you didn't have it already. Each core ability including this one grants +5 Melee Power and +4 Ranged Power, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, 50 Spell Points, +1 Epic DC, 5 Force Spell Power and 5 Universal Spell Power.
Core 3 (level 23): Step Through Shadow: Dimension Door SLA. Cooldown of 2 minutes. You also gain the ability to tumble through enemies.
Core 6 (level 26): The Darkest Luck: You have Evasion, normal Evasion rules apply. If you have Evasion already, you gain Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1.
Core 12 (level 32): Cut to the Soul: +3% dodge bypass, +3% fortification bypass, +3% damage versus the helpless. When you cast the spell Trap the Soul, it automatically applies 3 stacks of the Darkness debuff even if the enemy survives the spell. This effect also applies on a vorpal attack. Darkness debuff: You are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 PRR and -3 MRR per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks and if you have Bring the Darkness this increases to a max of 5 stacks.
Tier 1 (req level 20):
Tier 2 (req level 20):
- Stealthy: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +1/2/3 bonus to sneak attack damage, +2/4/6 Hide and Move Silently. Rank 3: Gain the Hide in Plain Sight feat.
- Cover of Darkness: +10/20/30% less threat from all sources. Rank 3: Gain a permanent benefit of Nightshield.
- Well of Darkness: +30/60/100 Spell Points and +1/2/3 to Fear based DCs. Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spell Power
- Assassinate: +2/4/6 to your Assassinate DCs.
- Technician: +2/4/6 to Search, Spot, Disable Device, Open Lock. Rank 3: If you have the Nimble Fingers feat, +1 Sneak Attack dice.
Tier 3 (req level 23):
- Sleight of Hand: +2/4/6 UMD. +25/50/75% damage and healing of your wands, scrolls and other items that cast spells. Adds +1/2/3 to the save DC's of your offensive wands and +1/2/3 to Trap DCs. Note: This does not stack with Wand and Scroll Mastery.
- Dance in the Dark: +1/2/3 Sneak Attack Dice and +1/2/3 dodge and dodge cap.
- Shadowform: Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle. Grants +10% Action bonus to movement speed, 25% Insight bonus to Sneak Speed, 25% Insight bonus to Cast Run Speed, and grants ghost touch on all attacks.
- Lithe: +2/4/6 reflex saves, AC and light armor Max Dex Bonus, Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spellpower.
- Multiselector: (Epic Strike)
- Nightmare Lance (spell): Epic Strike: Illusion Spell, deals 1d6+6 Force damage per caster level. Enemies must make a Will save vs (20 + highest ability score + illusion bonuses + fear bonuses) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 15 seconds.
- Shadowstrike (melee): Epic Strike: +5[W], +3 Critical Threat Range and Critical Damage Multiplier. Enemy must make a Fortitude save vs (20 + highest ability score + assassinate) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 15 seconds.
- Shadowstrike (ranged): Epic Strike: +5[W], +3 Critical Threat Range and Critical Damage Multiplier. Enemy must make a Fortitude save vs (20 + highest ability score + assassinate) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 15 seconds.
- Grim Precision: +1/2/3 Spell Penetration, and you bypass 5/10/15% enemy Fortification.
- Shadowcaster: Multiselector:
- Shadowcaster: -10% Spell Cooldowns. Your spells have a 5% chance to blind monsters with no save for 5 seconds. Immunity to Energy Drain.
- Shadowstriker: +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. Your critical hits blind monsters with no save for 5 seconds. Immunity to Energy Drain.
- Depths of Darkness: While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you gain 25% Incorporeality, 25% Concealment and 5% dodge and dodge cap.
- Shadowdancer Spell Focus: Multiselector:
- +1/2/3 Abjuration DCs
- +1/2/3 Enchantment DCs
- +1/2/3 Illusion DCs
- +1/2/3 Necromancy DCs
- +1/2/3 Imbuement Dice
- Epic Strike Upgrade: Dark Imbuement: Your Epic Strike now imbues your weapons with Evil energies for 10s: You deal 1d6 per Sneak Attack Dice in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force Spell Power if its higher.)
Tier 4 (req level 26):
Tier 5 (req level 30):
- Pierce the Gloom: +2/4/6 Accuracy, to-hit with Sneak Attacks, to-hit while flanking. Rank 3: You gain immunity to Silence, Quell, and Blindness.
- From the Shadows: You dissolve into shadows before appearing some distance in front of you. This grants you the buffs from your Shadowdancer Epic Strike if you have them trained. Cooldown: 20 seconds. (No longer requires stealth to use.)
- Dark Mercy: Your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle now grants you +5/10/15% Helplessness damage and 3d2/3d4/3d6 vampirism on hit.
- Bring Darkness: When you roll a natural 20 on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, applying the Darkness debuff. If you have the feat First Blood, the trigger of First Blood now also applies the Darkness debuff, and First Blood now triggers on Harmful Spellcasts. First Blood no longer has an HP requirement to take effect. Darkness: The target is no longer immune to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 Physical Resistance Rating and -3 Magical Resistance Rating per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks.
- Epic Strike Upgrade II: Multiselector:
- Reaching Imbuement: Dark Imbuement now increases your melee range.
- Shadowed Imbuement: Dark Imbuement now grants 10% doubleshot.
- Paranoid Imbuement: Dark Imbuement now reduces the cost of all of your Metamagics by 1 Spell Point each
- Weird: A targeted foe and all nearby enemies are subject to a Phantasmal Killer effect, with a DC20 + highest of INT/WIS/CHA mod + Assassination bonuses + Illusion spell bonuses to prevent the death. Cooldown: 60 seconds.
- Just a Taste: +1 multiplier on an attack roll of 19-20 with bows, thrown weapons, crossbows, quarterstaves, and finessable melee weapons. This bonus doubles if you are using a Shadowblade or Elemental Blade (Conjured Shadowblades, Flameblades, Thornblades and the Dryad and the Demigod Raid Weapons.)
- Greater Shadowform: You also gain +10 Force/Universal Spell Power. While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you float as if you had Feather Fall, gain +20 Hide and Move Silently, and no longer trigger pressure plate or bear traps. (Note: As a result of the floating, you are also immune to Trip and Knockdown effects.)
- Greater Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Spell DCs
- Meld Into Darkness: Epic Moment: Dissolve into a whorl of shadow, leaving your corporeal form behind. While in this form, you are considered Sneaking and Invisible regardless of what you do. You also gain 3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, 50% Uncapped Dodge, as well as the effects your Epic Strike as if they had been fully trained and upgraded. Duration: 15 seconds. Cooldown: 2 minutes.
Cuts so I could address broader parts and then the more specific bits!So, I've got a bit of feedback for your reply. I don't dislike it, though I feel it's incredibly lacking in terms of how aggressive of a change it 'should' be. It doesn't really address the harsh lack of usefulness in T4/T5 abilities, though it does get us part way there with the change to Weird.
Now, for your specific ability feedback.
Updated my original post with a few of the changes discussed.A lot of those are really fair points. Though I did want to respond to a couple.
I can definitely understand incorporeal being a weaker stat than dodge, and would be cool with it being swapped over, especially since that would let us stagger the epic moment and uncanny dodge to gain a bit longer survival. If this happened though, I'd love to see Shadowform's incorporeality stack with items that have the ghostly or enhanced ghostly effect. As it is right now, Champions tend to ignore it and Reaper debuffs all defense layers. If they're not high enough then they pretty much don't exist.
I think that moving movement speed while stealthed to the Stealthy enhancement and buffing it up would definitely be the way to go. It could even be dependent on the Shadowdancer Mantle being active, or have the Mantle double those bonuses.
For the Blind, I completely agree with you on 5 seconds with a 60 second immunity feeling very disappointing. If we remove the immunity I'd be perfectly fine with it having a save based on our standard Assassinate saves.
For Cut to The Soul I'm curious as to how that would work. Would you increase the stacks you get from both of the abilities? I think it might make more sense to have it consider 19-20 a vorpal strike at that rate. That would be a very powerful capstone.
For Just a Taste I can see where you're coming from there. As it is right now you can already imbue shadow into your weapons with the Shadowblade ability. So it makes sense for you to consider imbued Shadowblades the same for this bonus.
Dark Mercy could definitely use something and I agree with you. It might be best to make it scale somehow to make it viable for higher end content. Even in R4-6 it'll still work but the viability will drop heavily when you're already being chucked for hundreds or thousands of health at a time.
For Greater Shadowform.. it definitely needs something, I agree. Trying to figure out a way to make people actually want to use the mantle. Especially for someone like a Ranged character that would much more likely want to use Shiradi. It'll be hard to compete with that.
Finally, for Greater Spell Focus.. I think adding some extra imbue dice here in addition to the previous dice might do wonders for melee and ranged characters wanting high tier Shadowdancer.
Updated my original post with a few of the changes discussed.
Cut to the Soul is granted at level 32, where as Bring the Darkness is granted at 26. Effectively the core is upgrading the effect if you took it at 26. But if for some reason you didn't take that enhancement at level 26 it'd grant you the weaker version.
For Just a taste I see your point, but I still have to disagree. Every destiny that has the +1 on a 19-20 has a specific range of weapons included for that tree's theme. As it stands the ones in Just a Taste wouldn't even cover two of the 'shadow/flameblade' weapons from the raid. Particularly Eidolon of Shadow, which is a Shadowblade, but doesn't count for being a fineseable weapon thus wouldn't apply to this. It makes no sense currently that a shadowblade cannot be used in the shadow/illusion themed tree. However if you allowed it to apply to any weapon you can cast the Shadowblade Imbuement on, then it defeats the entire point of having a themed selection of weapons.
As far as putting a save on the blind effect; it's possible but then the DC calculation would have to be pretty wonky to ensure anyone using the destiny could make it work. Something like: (10 + character level + highest stat + assassination bonuses)
That's a lot of sneak speed when stacking with the class enhancements, but that's not my call on balance. I'd love to see what a dev would think of that.All in all with the changes you proposed I'd be much happier with Shadowdancer in general, but still a bit iffy on the Mantle.
If your changes for Stealthy dropped the flat sneak attack damage and instead added 25/50/75% insight bonus to movement speed while sneaking, and instead of gaining a 25% bonus the mantle doubled the movement speed of stealthy and the dodge bonus of Dance in Darkness, I think I'd be at a place I'd really enjoy it.
I still also wholeheartedly think that something in Shadowdancer should autoinvis them when they sneak. It'd be pretty awesome if every 30 seconds when entering sneak you gained invisibility.. and then upon exiting sneak you gained displacement for a certain amount of time.
Those two major changes on top of everything else you suggested would be a literal game changer to me.
Also, if the Devs don't like the idea of a 2 minute cooldown on an epic moment.. I totally recommend Weird being pulsed out of you at regular intervals.
That's a lot of sneak speed when stacking with the class enhancements, but that's not my call on balance. I'd love to see what a dev would think of that.
As to the autoinvis; I'd wager this wouldn't fly simply because of the interaction it would produce with Dark Hunters.
Got to remember that everything has a level of interplay, hence why my changes were designed around keeping Rogues, Dark Hunters, Deepwood Stalkers, Wolf Druids, and Ninja Spy in mind. These are the 'stealth' archetypes in the sense that all of them gain access to sneak attack die, several of them use cross-valued abilities such as traps between Rogues and Dark Hunters, or imbues for most of them (blightcaster leans on imbue rather than normal druid.) But I also wanted to make sure that the illusionist side of things remains in place for casters, because let's be honest EKs/Gishes could easily make use of this tree as well if it was more appealing with the Imbue Dice being added in.