When are the devs gonna fix Shadow Dancer Epic Destiny:
- Thread starter VinoeWhines
- Start date
FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted
Well-known member
ive read through a lot of this thread, and while I don't think the old shadowdancer was balanced, the new shadowdancer is even less balanced. lets be honest, old meld was a little OP, and executioners strike was very OP for its cooldown, but now, shadowdancer has...? i don't know, a thing that requires stealth and sets mobs ac to 0? really? that's what it was replaced with? i generally don't agree with people asking for buffs, but in this case I feel shadowdancer needs to be better. its my least used destiny tree. i think I've played 1 build where I liked SD for the SA dice. but I feel I can get better stuff than the sneak attack dice, like the action boosts from LD or the stun DCs from grandmaster. SD has the worst t5 of any destiny in the game by far. the epic moment is bad, the crit multi isn't special, the abilities are bad (yeah yeah, weird is an instakill spell, but so is holy fireball and double ruin damage, and those have much lower cooldown, do damage to bosses, and better saves), a useless stealth ability when most people don't stealth, a thing that makes u immune to bear traps and basically nothing else (cuz apparently trappers arent supposed to disarm bear traps) and spell DCs. really? spell DCs in a melee tree? tbf the other hybrid destinies have it to, but they have other stuff for melee/ranged, like in shiradi the paralyze is amazing, in fatesinger cut the strings is amazing regardless of character, and in the upcoming macrotech the defense from the mantle rocks and the drive upgrades are amazing. but the best SD can do is a thing that has a 1 minute cooldown, sets mobs AC to 0 ON A FAILED SAVE and doesn't add damage at all (most mobs at 20 vul stacks anyway these days). seriously, do SOMETHING to shadowdancer to make it better. oh also the trap the soul applying darkness stacks doesn't work. woo...
Elves United
Well-known member
With the exception of the destiny mantle, shadowdancer has some fairly decent Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3 abilities. ( Evasion, spell cooldown reduction, energy drain immunity, sneak attack, threat reduction, nightshield, light armor max dex, etc ) As such I've had multiple builds which use this destiny as a secondary. It's tier 4 and tier 5 where it falls apart and I've never used this destiny as a primary.
Thor
Looking for a New Love
At the 1st debut of this tree the devs were told how bad this tree is and they just forged ahead. This tree is a good 13 point spend, for SA Dice, and evasion. Beyond that the tree is basically useless to everyone. Mantle, Tier 4 and 5 are too weak to be considered. This should have been a great tree for rogues and dex based melee's, instead it's not. Unfortunate.
FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted
Well-known member
yeah i know the low hanging stuff is good, I just never seem to take it lol. i much prefer dreadnaught or fatesinger for melee, and for casters I do 3 trees of my main element, which is never force, so I just end up never using it ?
I'm really struggling to find a really good epic destiny that leans into the high dex/int rogue archetype with a focus on dealing with traps and staying alive... end up falling into the same patterns as always of Primal Avatar for cocoon, Fury of the Wild for damage, and Legendary Dreadnought for damage and survival through dodge and displacement while action boosting..
It really hurts to see that as the focus when it's pretty much the same for any melee DPS while you're gonna look at Shiradi and absolutely nothing else as a ranged DPS.
Shadowdancer is just plain bad for the main people it's supposed to support. The only real good it is at this point is for a very minor dip for people that don't get evasion otherwise.
I'd also struggle to figure out another Epic Destiny that sounds like a natural progression for a dex based melee skirmisher that deals heavily with traps, stealth, assassination, and other skills. Maybe something like a Phantom Thief? But wouldn't that just be another Shadowdancer?
My thoughts are this are to focus Shadowdancer around being one of the best Rogueish destinies it can be and to merge the caster portion of things into Eclipse where I think it would fit MUCH better.
Empower Stealth for Shadowdancer so that while in stealth you're invisible and move full speed provided you've got all of the stealth speed enhancements from something like Ninja, Assassin, Deepwood Stalker, etc.
Give it the ability to have a really solid survival and damage bonus for a bit after exiting stealth and the ability to enter back into stealth mid combat.
Give it Evasion or Improved Evasion if you already have it. If you already have improved evasion give it no fail on reflex saves with a nat 1.
Give it imbue dice that does negative energy, cold damage, or force damage.. with a vampirism effect to keep the shadowdancer alive.
Give it solid assassination options for both melee and ranged combat.
Give it the ability to strip away sneak attack immunity on critical hits, not just vorpal hits.
Give it the ability to stack incorporeal, concealment, and dodge bonuses with standard bonuses they'd normally be getting from gear.
There are so many things that you can do to make it a worthwhile destiny that could SHINE for quick skirmisher characters.. it just makes me sad that it's in the current state it is.
It really hurts to see that as the focus when it's pretty much the same for any melee DPS while you're gonna look at Shiradi and absolutely nothing else as a ranged DPS.
Shadowdancer is just plain bad for the main people it's supposed to support. The only real good it is at this point is for a very minor dip for people that don't get evasion otherwise.
I'd also struggle to figure out another Epic Destiny that sounds like a natural progression for a dex based melee skirmisher that deals heavily with traps, stealth, assassination, and other skills. Maybe something like a Phantom Thief? But wouldn't that just be another Shadowdancer?
My thoughts are this are to focus Shadowdancer around being one of the best Rogueish destinies it can be and to merge the caster portion of things into Eclipse where I think it would fit MUCH better.
Empower Stealth for Shadowdancer so that while in stealth you're invisible and move full speed provided you've got all of the stealth speed enhancements from something like Ninja, Assassin, Deepwood Stalker, etc.
Give it the ability to have a really solid survival and damage bonus for a bit after exiting stealth and the ability to enter back into stealth mid combat.
Give it Evasion or Improved Evasion if you already have it. If you already have improved evasion give it no fail on reflex saves with a nat 1.
Give it imbue dice that does negative energy, cold damage, or force damage.. with a vampirism effect to keep the shadowdancer alive.
Give it solid assassination options for both melee and ranged combat.
Give it the ability to strip away sneak attack immunity on critical hits, not just vorpal hits.
Give it the ability to stack incorporeal, concealment, and dodge bonuses with standard bonuses they'd normally be getting from gear.
There are so many things that you can do to make it a worthwhile destiny that could SHINE for quick skirmisher characters.. it just makes me sad that it's in the current state it is.
VinoeWhines
Well-known member
While the Cause of adding caster to the Tree doesn't seem to be the biggest problem, it is actually the stone that caused the Avalanche of the Destruction of the Epic Destiny Tree Shadow Dancer. Tier 4 and Tier 5 and Destiny Mantles, I whole heartedly agree are weak. The first order of business should be to remove the caster part of the Tree and put Magician/Illusionists where it belongs and that is Magus(Magush=Magician) of the Eclipse to clear the footers of this tree to properly build it out.
Though I can understand that the original Meld into Darkness 95% Dodge was a cause of complain by many,
they could of just lowered it and build it up from a base 25%(Tier II separate choice and not part of an Epic Strike, since it has nothing to improve Damage)
Then 35%/55%(in upper Tiers IV and V) as a stand alone clicky (like Uncanny Dodge).
Executioner Strike/Shot was a 12 second coodown. You have casters/alchemists that can instakill in 4-6 seconds in Finger of Death/Frog, etc, etc.
Executioner attack was only at a 35% chance and had to invest in assassinate and the same long duration cooldown of Assassinate 12 seconds while other classes can cut their cooldowns by over half.
But I agree pretty much as you stated that this tree has turned into a gym towel that is an afterthought and used and discarded and not seriously thought of as a main tree. When it's main audience before the revamp enjoyed using the Tree for it's ability to:
Distract mobs to get in Sneak Attacks in Shadow Manipulation (Shiradi Tree now gets it for no reason as a safe range combat style in Beguile Charm, when it wasn't called for) and at the end a chance for mob to be instakilled if your Assassinate DC's were high enough/invested in enough.
Pass Through Enemies on Tumble: This was kept in Grandmaster of Flowers and shouldn't of been removed in Shadow Dancer and was a defensive feature to tumble through mobs if you some how got cornered or needed to tumble through a door opening to escape.
Stealthy% and Assassinate DC's: were given together at a +[2/4/6] option and now it's separated and a case of wasting more points when you use to get both(illusion of wasted choice).
You were able to have both of these choices(Meld and Dark Imbuement) and not have to hard choose one or the other......
Dark Imbuement: Active Ability: (Cooldown: 2 minutes) For 30 seconds, you deal an extra 9d6 unholy damage with every strike (scales with 200% higher of melee or ranged power), +15 Melee and Ranged Power, +2 Sneak Attack dice, the effective range of your melee attacks increases dramatically, and your ranged attacks have a 30% chance to explode, dealing 18d6 unholy damage (scales with 200% ranged power) to all enemies in a large radius around your target.
The point is the devs just removed main features of the tree that other Stealth/Rogue players used and weren't over powerful(as other trees inherrited or kept those abilities in their trees till now).
Consume = Cut the Strings.
Shadow Manipulation = Beguile Charm.
Pass through Enemies on Tumble = Grandmaster of Flowers Tumble through enemies.
- Also removed...
Executioner Strike/Shot = Only a 35% chance to kill a target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save.
This 1000% Least Used Main Epic Destiny Tree by EVERYONE.....even Stealth/Rogue players. We can't even get Weird as a Rogue, while Rogues can get Cut the Strings, Everything is Nothing, Mass Frog, Time Stop, Ruin Intensified and ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING from every other Epic Destiny Tree.
Bingo! "....As such As such I've had multiple builds which use this destiny as a secondary. It's tier 4 and tier 5 where it falls apart and I've never used this destiny as a primary." - Elves United.
This perfectly sums up the result of putting Caster in Shadow Dancer and knocking out soo many useful abilities it had before to be replaced with watered down/ sometimes useless/ or split one ability into 2 choices(Stealthy had Assassinate DC as part of its bonus together before, Not having to waste 6 Epic Destiny points when it was 3 before to end up at the same spot).
Ya a Shop Towel.
That low hanging fruit of the loom underwear makes great rags.
The Struggle is real - you are not alone....
This is soo true, the Tree should be called Shadow Dip: This Epic Destiny is a complement to your Main chips you already possess.
You also made nice points on what the Tree should focus on as well:
Evasion/Defense: stack incorporeal, concealment, and dodge bonuses
Assassinate improvements/abilities for both melee and ranged combat
Strip away sneak attack immunity on critical hits and vampirism effect to keep the shadowdancer alive
I'd also add Improved Trap/Vial CCing-Sneak Attack damage to mobs as well.
VinoeWhines
Well-known member
What is the purpose of Slight of Hand?
It being a Heroic Enhancement taken at Heroic Level 2
How is a class level 2 Enhancement an Epic Destiny boost?.....Get outta heeya!
It being a Heroic Enhancement taken at Heroic Level 2
How is a class level 2 Enhancement an Epic Destiny boost?.....Get outta heeya!
One of the big things people fail to point out about the old meld is that the 95% dodge in itself wasn't busted. It was the fact that it was absolutely abused in stacked defenses.
When an Assassin is in melee range and dies in a single hit most of the time... that 95% dodge is basically a 5% chance of death while they're skirmishing.
When the Tank that can easily take a few hits gets a 95% dodge chance.. or when a healer that can heal themselves up between hits gets a 95% dodge chance gets it... then it becomes super powerful.
The problem is that Assassins and other dodge based characters need SOMETHING to be able to sustain themselves in a fight and they still have almost never addressed this point.
Instead they just claim it as too powerful and nerf it.
When an Assassin is in melee range and dies in a single hit most of the time... that 95% dodge is basically a 5% chance of death while they're skirmishing.
When the Tank that can easily take a few hits gets a 95% dodge chance.. or when a healer that can heal themselves up between hits gets a 95% dodge chance gets it... then it becomes super powerful.
The problem is that Assassins and other dodge based characters need SOMETHING to be able to sustain themselves in a fight and they still have almost never addressed this point.
Instead they just claim it as too powerful and nerf it.
VinoeWhines
Well-known member
a 1,000,000,000%(Trillion) NO CAP!!!!!!
Just like they nerfed ALL Casters in upper Reaper when it was just 2 - 3 OP's
I figure I'd weigh in and throw my own rebalanced version of Shadowdancer into the ring. Unlike some of you all; I'm willing to play within the current vision rather than pining for the rose tinted glasses of old Shadowdancer. (Even though I miss it.) My general goal/thought process was to keep what's in the destiny currently, expand upon it, and encompass the classes/playstyles that touch Shadowdancer ideally. Oh and most importantly, to change Weird to be like Mass Frog. Because seriously, why can't non-casters make use of this ability but a fighter can take mass frog?
Shadowdancer
Core 1 (level 20): Shadow Training: You gain the Magical Training feat if you didn't have it already. Each core ability including this one grants +5 Melee Power and +4 Ranged Power, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, 50 Spell Points, +1 Epic DC, 5 Force Spell Power and 5 Universal Spell Power.
Core 3 (level 23): Step Through Shadow: Dimension Door SLA. Cooldown of 2 minutes. You also gain the ability to tumble through enemies.
Core 6 (level 26): The Darkest Luck: You have Evasion, normal Evasion rules apply. If you have Evasion already, you gain Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1.
Core 12 (level 32): Cut to the Soul: +3% dodge bypass, +3% fortification bypass, +3% damage versus the helpless. When you cast the spell Trap the Soul, it automatically applies 3 stacks of the Darkness debuff even if the enemy survives the spell. This effect also applies on a vorpal attack. Darkness debuff: You are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 PRR and -3 MRR per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks and if you have Bring the Darkness this increases to a max of 5 stacks.
Tier 1 (req level 20):
Tier 4 (req level 26):
Shadowdancer
Core 1 (level 20): Shadow Training: You gain the Magical Training feat if you didn't have it already. Each core ability including this one grants +5 Melee Power and +4 Ranged Power, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, 50 Spell Points, +1 Epic DC, 5 Force Spell Power and 5 Universal Spell Power.
Core 3 (level 23): Step Through Shadow: Dimension Door SLA. Cooldown of 2 minutes. You also gain the ability to tumble through enemies.
Core 6 (level 26): The Darkest Luck: You have Evasion, normal Evasion rules apply. If you have Evasion already, you gain Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1.
Core 12 (level 32): Cut to the Soul: +3% dodge bypass, +3% fortification bypass, +3% damage versus the helpless. When you cast the spell Trap the Soul, it automatically applies 3 stacks of the Darkness debuff even if the enemy survives the spell. This effect also applies on a vorpal attack. Darkness debuff: You are vulnerable to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 PRR and -3 MRR per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks and if you have Bring the Darkness this increases to a max of 5 stacks.
Tier 1 (req level 20):
- Stealthy: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +1/2/3 bonus to sneak attack damage, +2/4/6 Hide and Move Silently. Rank 3: Gain the Hide in Plain Sight feat.
- Cover of Darkness: +10/20/30% less threat from all sources. Rank 3: Gain a permanent benefit of Nightshield.
- Well of Darkness: +30/60/100 Spell Points and +1/2/3 to Fear based DCs. Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spell Power
- Assassinate: +2/4/6 to your Assassinate DCs.
- Technician: +2/4/6 to Search, Spot, Disable Device, Open Lock. Rank 3: If you have the Nimble Fingers feat, +1 Sneak Attack dice.
- Sleight of Hand: +2/4/6 UMD. +25/50/75% damage and healing of your wands, scrolls and other items that cast spells. Adds +1/2/3 to the save DC's of your offensive wands and +1/2/3 to Trap DCs. Note: This does not stack with Wand and Scroll Mastery.
- Dance in the Dark: +1/2/3 Sneak Attack Dice and +1/2/3 dodge and dodge cap.
- Shadowform: Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle. Grants +15% Action bonus to movement speed, 25% Insight bonus to Sneak Speed, 25% Insight bonus to Cast Run Speed, and grants ghost touch on all attacks.
- Lithe: +2/4/6 reflex saves, AC and light armor Max Dex Bonus, Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spellpower.
- Multiselector: (Epic Strike)
- Nightmare Lance (spell): Epic Strike: Illusion Spell, deals 1d6+6 Force damage per caster level. Enemies must make a Will save vs (20 + highest ability score + illusion bonuses + fear bonuses) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 15 seconds.
- Shadowstrike (melee): Epic Strike: +5[W], +3 Critical Threat Range and Critical Damage Multiplier. Enemy must make a Fortitude save vs (20 + highest ability score + assassinate) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 15 seconds.
- Shadowstrike (ranged): Epic Strike: +5[W], +3 Critical Threat Range and Critical Damage Multiplier. Enemy must make a Fortitude save vs (20 + highest ability score + assassinate) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 15 seconds.
- Grim Precision: +1/2/3 Spell Penetration, and you bypass 5/10/15% enemy Fortification.
- Shadowcaster: Multiselector:
- Shadowcaster: -10% Spell Cooldowns. Your spells have a 5% chance to blind monsters with no save for 5 seconds. Immunity to Energy Drain.
- Shadowstriker: +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. Your critical hits blind monsters with no save for 5 seconds. Immunity to Energy Drain.
- Depths of Darkness: While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you gain 25% Incorporeality, 25% Concealment and 5% dodge and dodge cap.
- Shadowdancer Spell Focus: Multiselector:
- +1/2/3 Abjuration DCs
- +1/2/3 Enchantment DCs
- +1/2/3 Illusion DCs
- +1/2/3 Necromancy DCs
- +1/2/3 Imbuement Dice
- Epic Strike Upgrade: Dark Imbuement: Your Epic Strike now imbues your weapons attacks and spells with Evil energies for 10s: You deal 1d6 per Sneak Attack Dice in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force Spell Power if its higher.)
Tier 4 (req level 26):
- Pierce the Gloom: +2/4/6 Accuracy, to-hit with Sneak Attacks, to-hit while flanking. Rank 3: You gain immunity to Silence, Quell, and Blindness.
- From the Shadows: You dissolve into shadows before appearing some distance in front of you. This grants you the buffs from your Shadowdancer Epic Strike if you have them trained. Cooldown: 20 seconds. (No longer requires stealth to use.)
- Dark Mercy: Your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle now grants you +5/10/15% Helplessness damage and 3d2/3d4/3d6 vampirism on hit. (This effect scales based the highest of Melee, Ranged, or Respective Spellpower. IE: If you are undead this uses negative spellpower.)
- Bring Darkness: When you roll a natural 20 on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, applying the Darkness debuff. If you have the feat First Blood, the trigger of First Blood now also applies the Darkness debuff, and First Blood now triggers on Harmful Spellcasts. First Blood no longer has an HP requirement to take effect. Darkness: The target is no longer immune to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 Physical Resistance Rating and -3 Magical Resistance Rating per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks.
- Epic Strike Upgrade II: Multiselector:
- Reaching Imbuement: Dark Imbuement now increases your melee range.
- Shadowed Imbuement: Dark Imbuement now grants 10% doubleshot.
- Paranoid Imbuement: Dark Imbuement now reduces the cost of all of your Metamagics by 1 Spell Point each
- Weird: A targeted foe and all nearby enemies are subject to a Phantasmal Killer effect, with a DC20 + highest of INT/WIS/CHA mod + Assassination bonuses + Illusion spell bonuses to prevent the death. Cooldown: 60 seconds.
- Just a Taste: +1 multiplier on an attack roll of 19-20 with bows, thrown weapons, crossbows, quarterstaves, and finessable melee weapons. This bonus doubles if you are using a Shadowblade or Elemental Blade (Conjured Shadowblades, Flameblades, Thornblades and the Dryad and the Demigod Raid Weapons.)
- Greater Shadowform: You also gain +10 Force/Universal Spell Power. While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you float as if you had Feather Fall, gain +20 Hide and Move Silently, and no longer trigger pressure plate or bear traps. (Note: As a result of the floating, you are also immune to Trip and Knockdown effects.)
- Greater Shadowdancer Spell Focus: Multiselector:
- +1/2/3 to all spell DCs
- +1/2/3 to Assassination DCs
- +1/2/3 to Imbue Dice
- Meld Into Darkness: Epic Moment: Dissolve into a whorl of shadow, leaving your corporeal form behind. While in this form, you are considered Sneaking and Invisible regardless of what you do. You also gain 3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, 50% to Dodge and Dodge Cap, as well as the effects your Epic Strike as if they had been fully trained and upgraded. Duration: 15 seconds. Cooldown: 2 minutes.
Last edited:
So, I've got a bit of feedback for your reply. I don't dislike it, though I feel it's incredibly lacking in terms of how aggressive of a change it 'should' be. It doesn't really address the harsh lack of usefulness in T4/T5 abilities, though it does get us part way there with the change to Weird.
First, before I get into the specific changes you mentioned.. I want to say that at an absolute minimum Shadowdancer should become Invisible while sneaking with no movement speed reduction at all (so long as they have maxed out one of the heroic movement speed while sneaking enhancements. It's really one of the best places to do it, and I'm cool with it being a part of the Destiny Mantle.
Would also really like to see Shadowdancers either have a 50% Concealment somewhere in their Destiny Mantle, or have some method of easily obtaining Displacement outside of being a caster or a Shadar-Kai. Since damage avoidance is such a critical need for Assassins and Skirmisher style characters.
Now, for your specific ability feedback.
Step Through Shadow: I do like adding in tumble through enemies back into the tree, though I think it makes more sense to add it to the Destiny Mantle. Possibly have that be a requirement for the ability here? If they could add the ability to cast two different SLA's, would be interesting to also add Shadow Walk here as well. That would be some fun flavor.
Cut to the Soul: Having this happen on Vorpal as well won't do much when Bring Darkness already does the same thing. Would be interesting to have something else fun and useful here as well, or to put in an update to Bring Darkness so it has another fun and useful ability.
Stealthy: I like the idea of a bonus to Sneak Attack damage here, but 1/2/3 damage and not dice feels a bit weak. I think it would make a lot more sense to combine something else into this, like Assassinate. Or to increase sneaking movement speed here as well and to have it stack with the enhancement bonus given in Heroics. Would be really nice to see a 25/50/75% Insight Bonus to Sneaking Speed while you're in your Destiny Mantle here. That way, it could be removed from the Destiny Mantle itself, potentially making room for some other bonuses.
Well of Darkness: I don't hate having a fear based DC bonus here, though it really does feel kind of redundant for a non-caster based Shadowdancer. And I dislike the idea of having nodes on the epic destiny that are useless to an entire segment of the intended playerbase.
Sleight of Hand: I don't hate the idea of having bonus to trap DCs, that's an interesting flair on it. Though it's still really annoying that this doesn't stack with Heroic bonuses to Wand Damage and Healing. Especially since you're not finding things like Wand of Heal laying around.
Dance in the Dark: I really like the idea of adding a Dodge/Dodge Cap bonus here. It fits really well, though it may be a bit low especially with your removal of the meld bonuses from the Epic Strike Upgrade. Possibly have the bonuses double or triple when you're in your Destiny Mantle? Maybe have it start as Double, and then upgrade it further with Greater Shadowform?
Shadowform: I think Shadowform is where Shadowdancer needs the most love. Action Boost to Movement Speed isn't terrible, but it might be better to be another bonus such as Insight. That way you can still stack additional movement speed from Action Boosts. Either that, or have the Action Boost bonus be 15-20%.
Shadowcaster/Shadowstriker: I really like this change here, it seems really good to me and I'd definitely enjoy playing it. It might make sense to either put a save on it though, or have it only work on a particular target once every 30-60 seconds. Personally, I'd prefer the save. Especially if it was our standard Assassinate saves.
Shadowdancer Spell Focus: I really like the concept of adding Imbue Dice here. That revamps that node and makes it useful to non-casters as well. Cheers there.
Epic Strike Upgrade: I like the idea of having a single upgrade path here. It really hurts to have to choose between damage and dodge on a character that is already hurting for both. One thing to keep in mind though, is that with the loss of Meld here we'll need to make up the dodge elsewhere. Either through the Destiny Mantle or through something like the Dance in the Dark change I mentioned above. Additionally, you'll probably want to reword this so it works on both weapons and on harmful spell casts.
Pierce the Gloom: Solid change here, can't really argue with it at all. It would be nice to no longer fail on a 1 for attacks as well. Or to have some other boost here.
From the Shadows: Great change, no notes. One of the biggest issues that I've had with this ability is its reliance on sneaking. Getting rid of that already makes it loads better.
Dark Mercy: Completely agree with adding Vampirism here. I'd possibly also add something like Feeding so we get Temporary Hitpoints and some self restore at the same time. Especially since Vampirism tends to fall off pretty heavily in reaper content. The changes to healing made it viable to self heal in reaper while out of combat, but Vampirism by definition requires combat.
Bring Darkness: I like the idea of removing the First Blood health requirement. That is a significant upgrade to this enhancement. One thing I'd love to see as a change here though is to change it from a Natural 20 to a Critical Hit. Applying Darkness should be a regular thing that we do, and not a rarity of 5% chance on the dice.
Epic Strike Upgrade II: I like the idea here of making a solid Melee, Range, and Caster option here. One thing I'm concerned about though is whether or not 10% Doublestrike is something that offers the same value to a Range character as the other options for Melee and Caster. If it is still valuable, then great!
Weird: I've been saying for a while that this needs to be a SLA for everybody and not just for casters. I think this is a great change. Though casters may be quite upset with it having such a long cooldown.
Just a Taste: I like the tweak you did to have shadowblades get double the bonus. It's pretty thematic and may make Shadowblades actually viable in late game play. One thing I think is worth adding here are weapons that are enchanted with the Shadowblade Property and not just the ones summoned by the spell. Since it'd be nice to see that utility be added!
Greater Shadowform: I know this is one that you didn't mention a change to.. But for a final tier of Shadowdancer's Destiny Mantle, it's always felt just.. Underwhelming to me. I really think it could use something here in addition to its current effects!
Greater Shadowdancer Spell Focus: I know this isn't one that you changed, however with the change to the initial one I think it would be nice to have a multiselector option raising either Spell DC's or Imbue Dice here as well. Possibly even adding additional Temp Hitpoint Procs here instead of Imbue Dice, for the Melee/Ranged Shadowdancers.
Meld into Darkness: Right now, this is a bit of a letdown. The 50% Dodge is nice, however it likely wouldn't stack with Uncanny Dodge. Currently, this adds 50% Incorporeality which allows people to get up to 75% Incorporeality. That plus Uncanny Dodge make for a pretty solid defensive moment. Dropping the duration on this moment is also pretty rough, since you're going from 20 to 15 seconds. The main reason I have an issue with the duration change is because of the cooldown of 5 minutes. I saw that you reduced the cooldown to 2 minutes, but I believe the devs wanted to keep every epic moment a once per 5 minute thing. This is probably the only real change where I have some extreme issues with what you did. Would like to see it keep the 50% Incorporeality, and to see it gain in duration up to 30 seconds at the minimum. With the changes that you made to the Epic Strike Upgrade multiselector, the second bit of this epic moment is a lot less valuable than before. My preference here would be: Increase the Duration to 30 seconds, keep the bonus as Incorporeality instead of Dodge, and during the 30 second duration every 5-6 seconds or so, have it cast a Weird effect with the save you had listed above on it.
Last edited:
Cuts so I could address broader parts and then the more specific bits!
Compared to the current iteration of Meld; my redesign was to redistribute the dodge bonus as a permanent passive of the tree. Hence cutting the 15% currently to 8% passively. That's a decent bonus for all builds. I also changed the current epic moment to be an uncapped dodge bonus to mirror the old Meld, while keeping the good bits. Old Meld imo was good enough to be a moment in of its own in the new system. But that could easily change to +50 and +50 cap during the duration as to stack with Uncanny. By dropping it down to 15 seconds, it follows the old Meld duration and cooldown which would hopefully mean the devs would be willing to consider the concept of letting one destiny play with a 'quicker' epic moment playstyle. I dropped the Incorporeality as the dodge would be a more universally 'strong' defense during that time. Mobs can access true sight/ghost touch on champs, making the Incorp moot. Dodge Bypass however is not a 100% stat on mobs.
Though you definitely propose a neat concept with having it cast weird and be a more normal duration/CD epic moment.
Also good catch on the wording bit for the strike, I was copy and pasting the wiki page to make it quicker.
Currently Well of Darkness is only a caster beneficial ability as is. When thinking of the name I realized there wasn't much you could add to it for a Melee/Ranged thematically. Better to throw some thematic fear there. I suppose shifting the sneak attack damage to here could theoretically work.
I'm not a fan of the current iteration of the blind effecting a target once per 60 seconds. Same for Draconic's Breath attack only paralyzing once. That doesn't feel very epic even if nine times out of ten we kill a mob before we'd theoretically apply an effect a second time.
The Vorpal effect on Cut the Soul is a bit of a redundancy. In case of the player not taking Bring the Darkness, they still have access to the debuff. If you'll note having Bring the Darkness does however increase the stack limit, so taking both means you're providing more debuff power.
On Just a Taste; I wanted to highlight the Shadowblades/Flameblades themselves. If you could apply it to any weapon it would defeat the purpose. Though weapons not included in the D&D raid would be wise. Such as Void for archers, or the Shadowscythe from Hunt or be Hunted. In general it meant any of the weapons that are made out of 'primordial/otherworldly forces'.
The vampirism from Dark Mercy could be set to scale similar to the Dark Hallow filigree. I didn't think to include that in the wording though. While that still doesn't fully overcome the reaper penalty, it does make the lifesteal viable up to around R6 or so.
As to the ranged strike upgrade. I'm not sure; I'd imagine 10% doubleshot is useful for any ranged build, but at the same time that was the best I could think of outside of alacrity which most ranged would already have.
I'll agree Greater Shadow form is lacklaster. Not sure if I'd personally slip more dodge/dodge cap there simply because devs don't like too many passive defense bonuses like that. I agree it could use something though!
And lastly Greater Spell Focus, solid idea. I didn't touch that one, didn't even figure there was a point putting imbue dice in it for non-casters. I feel like most people don't try to max the T5 in any tree so I figured that'd be a good thing to leave just for the illusionists in the tree.
A lot of those are really fair points. Though I did want to respond to a couple.
I can definitely understand incorporeal being a weaker stat than dodge, and would be cool with it being swapped over, especially since that would let us stagger the epic moment and uncanny dodge to gain a bit longer survival. If this happened though, I'd love to see Shadowform's incorporeality stack with items that have the ghostly or enhanced ghostly effect. As it is right now, Champions tend to ignore it and Reaper debuffs all defense layers. If they're not high enough then they pretty much don't exist.
I think that moving movement speed while stealthed to the Stealthy enhancement and buffing it up would definitely be the way to go. It could even be dependent on the Shadowdancer Mantle being active, or have the Mantle double those bonuses.
For the Blind, I completely agree with you on 5 seconds with a 60 second immunity feeling very disappointing. If we remove the immunity I'd be perfectly fine with it having a save based on our standard Assassinate saves.
For Cut to The Soul I'm curious as to how that would work. Would you increase the stacks you get from both of the abilities? I think it might make more sense to have it consider 19-20 a vorpal strike at that rate. That would be a very powerful capstone.
For Just a Taste I can see where you're coming from there. As it is right now you can already imbue shadow into your weapons with the Shadowblade ability. So it makes sense for you to consider imbued Shadowblades the same for this bonus.
Dark Mercy could definitely use something and I agree with you. It might be best to make it scale somehow to make it viable for higher end content. Even in R4-6 it'll still work but the viability will drop heavily when you're already being chucked for hundreds or thousands of health at a time.
For Greater Shadowform.. it definitely needs something, I agree. Trying to figure out a way to make people actually want to use the mantle. Especially for someone like a Ranged character that would much more likely want to use Shiradi. It'll be hard to compete with that.
Finally, for Greater Spell Focus.. I think adding some extra imbue dice here in addition to the previous dice might do wonders for melee and ranged characters wanting high tier Shadowdancer.
I can definitely understand incorporeal being a weaker stat than dodge, and would be cool with it being swapped over, especially since that would let us stagger the epic moment and uncanny dodge to gain a bit longer survival. If this happened though, I'd love to see Shadowform's incorporeality stack with items that have the ghostly or enhanced ghostly effect. As it is right now, Champions tend to ignore it and Reaper debuffs all defense layers. If they're not high enough then they pretty much don't exist.
I think that moving movement speed while stealthed to the Stealthy enhancement and buffing it up would definitely be the way to go. It could even be dependent on the Shadowdancer Mantle being active, or have the Mantle double those bonuses.
For the Blind, I completely agree with you on 5 seconds with a 60 second immunity feeling very disappointing. If we remove the immunity I'd be perfectly fine with it having a save based on our standard Assassinate saves.
For Cut to The Soul I'm curious as to how that would work. Would you increase the stacks you get from both of the abilities? I think it might make more sense to have it consider 19-20 a vorpal strike at that rate. That would be a very powerful capstone.
For Just a Taste I can see where you're coming from there. As it is right now you can already imbue shadow into your weapons with the Shadowblade ability. So it makes sense for you to consider imbued Shadowblades the same for this bonus.
Dark Mercy could definitely use something and I agree with you. It might be best to make it scale somehow to make it viable for higher end content. Even in R4-6 it'll still work but the viability will drop heavily when you're already being chucked for hundreds or thousands of health at a time.
For Greater Shadowform.. it definitely needs something, I agree. Trying to figure out a way to make people actually want to use the mantle. Especially for someone like a Ranged character that would much more likely want to use Shiradi. It'll be hard to compete with that.
Finally, for Greater Spell Focus.. I think adding some extra imbue dice here in addition to the previous dice might do wonders for melee and ranged characters wanting high tier Shadowdancer.
Updated my original post with a few of the changes discussed.
Cut to the Soul is granted at level 32, where as Bring the Darkness is granted at 26. Effectively the core is upgrading the effect if you took it at 26. But if for some reason you didn't take that enhancement at level 26 it'd grant you the weaker version.
For Just a taste I see your point, but I still have to disagree. Every destiny that has the +1 on a 19-20 has a specific range of weapons included for that tree's theme. As it stands the ones in Just a Taste wouldn't even cover two of the 'shadow/flameblade' weapons from the raid. Particularly Eidolon of Shadow, which is a Shadowblade, but doesn't count for being a fineseable weapon thus wouldn't apply to this. It makes no sense currently that a shadowblade cannot be used in the shadow/illusion themed tree. However if you allowed it to apply to any weapon you can cast the Shadowblade Imbuement on, then it defeats the entire point of having a themed selection of weapons. Not to mention that this is a double stacking bonus, not the base +1 of the tree itself. That'd be beyond powerful to give a +2 to any weapon and would likely shift Shadowdancer from being obscure to a must pick choice for DPS min-maxers.
As far as putting a save on the blind effect; it's possible but then the DC calculation would have to be pretty wonky to ensure anyone using the destiny could make it work. Something like: (10 + character level + highest stat + assassination bonuses)
I'd be fine with that as a save. They already do it for other things in Shadowdancer and other Destinies. Though of course it should be tweaked to make it reliable enough to use regularly. From what it looks like though that seems fine to me!
At that rate it may also be worth setting Weird to something similar.
All in all with the changes you proposed I'd be much happier with Shadowdancer in general, but still a bit iffy on the Mantle.
If your changes for Stealthy dropped the flat sneak attack damage and instead added 25/50/75% insight bonus to movement speed while sneaking, and instead of gaining a 25% bonus the mantle doubled the movement speed of stealthy and the dodge bonus of Dance in Darkness, I think I'd be at a place I'd really enjoy it.
I still also wholeheartedly think that something in Shadowdancer should autoinvis them when they sneak. It'd be pretty awesome if every 30 seconds when entering sneak you gained invisibility.. and then upon exiting sneak you gained displacement for a certain amount of time.
Those two major changes on top of everything else you suggested would be a literal game changer to me.
Also, if the Devs don't like the idea of a 2 minute cooldown on an epic moment.. I totally recommend Weird being pulsed out of you at regular intervals.
If your changes for Stealthy dropped the flat sneak attack damage and instead added 25/50/75% insight bonus to movement speed while sneaking, and instead of gaining a 25% bonus the mantle doubled the movement speed of stealthy and the dodge bonus of Dance in Darkness, I think I'd be at a place I'd really enjoy it.
I still also wholeheartedly think that something in Shadowdancer should autoinvis them when they sneak. It'd be pretty awesome if every 30 seconds when entering sneak you gained invisibility.. and then upon exiting sneak you gained displacement for a certain amount of time.
Those two major changes on top of everything else you suggested would be a literal game changer to me.
Also, if the Devs don't like the idea of a 2 minute cooldown on an epic moment.. I totally recommend Weird being pulsed out of you at regular intervals.
That's a lot of sneak speed when stacking with the class enhancements, but that's not my call on balance. I'd love to see what a dev would think of that.
As to the autoinvis; I'd wager this wouldn't fly simply because of the interaction it would produce with Dark Hunters.
Got to remember that everything has a level of interplay, hence why my changes were designed around keeping Rogues, Dark Hunters, Deepwood Stalkers, Wolf Druids, and Ninja Spy in mind. These are the 'stealth' archetypes in the sense that all of them gain access to sneak attack die, several of them use cross-valued abilities such as traps between Rogues and Dark Hunters, or imbues for most of them (blightcaster leans on imbue rather than normal druid.) But I also wanted to make sure that the illusionist side of things remains in place for casters, because let's be honest EKs/Gishes could easily make use of this tree as well if it was more appealing with the Imbue Dice being added in.
Dark Hunters already have Smoke Bomb that they can use every 25 seconds, giving them 12 seconds of Invis and Displacement. And it's important to keep note that the bonuses they get from becoming invisible only happen once every minute.
As far as Sneak speed goes, there's no reason in epic levels for it to slow you down anymore. Not when people will regularly just invis themselves and run through quests without sneak at all.
At least personally, I'd be okay with anyone in the Shadowdancer Mantle that has Sneak Speed from elsewhere being able to move at full speed while sneaking.
Those are just my preferences at least. I don't think it would be overly tuned.
Last edited:
FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted
Well-known member
now that i think about it, this thread baffles me. yeah, shadowdancer needs a buff, but I have NEVER seen anybody ask for a primal avatar buff. t5 PA is (IMO) worse than shadowdancer. just food for thought, but a discussion for another day....