Why are casters still nerfed in R7+?

Guntango

Well-known member
No one plays fighter anymore, only for push raids and can you tell me how many people do that? Exactly, maybe 10 to 20 people in the whole game. Your "where it matters" is a lot different than the other 99.99% of the game.
It’s still a true statement. DL has nice cc unless you’re running with dc caster. Then, fighter wins. DL may be better if you’re soloing. That’s about it.

Again, if people like to play it, let them. But exaggerating an issue because you feel a certain way won’t help the game.
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
Having said that, speaking as a druid, it's not that hard. Lay down salted sleet storm and you'll slow down everything except bosses/dooms to a crawl. Add EQ/Icestorm/SoVx2 and you'll stop most stuff form reaching you. Fight around corners so you can manage ranged enemies. Then it's a question of patience, perches or playing keep away til the boss is dead. Patience is the big one here as most people who play DDO have very little.

A wizard or warlock would be the same i suspect - quicker clears as they have more IKs than a druid but slower boss kills as they have less single target DPS.
I think you are vastly underestimating how good Druids are. No way you are clearing R10's faster on a Wizard or Warlock. Sure you can instant kill some trash, but across quests you also have to deal with immunities and much lower DPS.
 

Jack Jarvis Esquire

Well-known member
The big thing people often miss is the dozens upon dozens of failed runs before the video that worked was made. Sure, some people one and done stuff, but that's less frequent.
Yes. It's very difficult to take such videos as representative evidence of wider population impact.?

Not only are they, by nature, the domain of the very few and best, but there is no context as to how many failures before led to the successful video on display.

It's a data point, but hardly a reliable one, and certainly in my view no basis for nerfing or buffing anything.

I think that perhaps the Devs might be being underestimated here - they certainly have access to far more data than any individual player.

For my money, the R7+ nerfs were the right move, but as usual the sledgehammer was used where a scalpel was needed. Then compounded by further nerfs to casters which went too far.

As for melees, they haven't received much if any of a buff recently in general, so I see zero argument for nerfing them now (I believe shifter razorclaw was nerfed but may need another look). The exception to this is DL, and that to me is a bit of an outlier right now, but it is the new shiny and I'd expect bait and switch to kick in as it's the usual MO, so we should enjoy that whilst we can.

Throughout this and other threads there are clearly those who want to see casters buffed compared to melee and are consistent in prosecuting that agenda. There are also those, like me, who disagree strongly with that proposition, and are equally consistent in pushing back with that agenda.

Is what it is. I'm not convinced in the slightest, but as ever YMMV. ??
 

Uncle Gus

Active member
Can somebody explain to me why these forums are full of threads about how one build or another should br nerfed rather than why other builds need a buff. Seems petty to me. like, "I don't like playing class X therefore if it preforms better than the class I like it should be nerfed"
 

magnus2882

Well-known member
I find the op's statement to be almost completely erroneous... I solo quests on R7.. and have no problem absolutely OBLITERATING any mob before it gets close enough to 1 shot me.... I think the problem is your build, not the content!
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
They wouldn't be niche if they also applied to melee/ranged. Just sayin'.
Don't think they need to make R7+ harder but I'm fine with nuking melee and ranged from orbit if they nerfing casters. Plenty of games to play if you want your ecosystem sterilized of casters. FOH with that in D&D.
 

Ped Xing

Well-known member
Can somebody explain to me why these forums are full of threads about how one build or another should br nerfed rather than why other builds need a buff. Seems petty to me. like, "I don't like playing class X therefore if it preforms better than the class I like it should be nerfed"
Many of the folks who play DDO are passionate about the game and their preferred build/playstyle/etc. They strive to find the 'perfect balance' with regards to build strength, party composition, difficulty challenge, etc... because there are so many factors that impact all of the above you get disagreements which lead to threads like this one.

As long as people are willing to have a reasonable discussion with the understanding that no player will ever have the data to support most of the arguments presented, the discussions can be fun :)
 

Tilomere

Well-known member
We could balance dragonlord against warchanter or KotC ascendency and have the cower not affect reapers. (or be an AoE stunning blow that doesn't affect reapers and a lot of other types of mobs) and match the cooldown to spinning ice to leave a gap to make fighters more reliant on others. Seems like they disregarded stunning mechanics and ended up with something OP.

Base visage/sundered soul/holy ret/CDG on assassinate. Seems like they disregarded melee instakill mechanics and ended up with something OP.

Bring melee up to caster damage reduction in reaper mode.

Nerf melee/ranged ED strikes to be supportive of builds and to fill holes but not dominate them like caster strikes. Basically caster ED strikes are roughly on par with level 4-6 spells of a full caster, so we could make melee/ranged strikes on par with level ~7-13 strikes acquired by a melee (Adrenaline becomes equivalent in power to deadly strike autocrit next attack no % bonus dmg except that native to next attack, ED strike cleaves like drifting lotus or Quick Cutter become midway between top end WWA and low end great cleave and become roughly base crit, 1 AoE strike at +60% dmg. Remove the crit from chainsx2.

We could also remove the extra +3/6 damage per die to weapons. Seems like they disregarded their own W scaling per level and ended up with something OP.

We could also have mind immune champions be cower immune.
 
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Jack Jarvis Esquire

Well-known member
I find the op's statement to be almost completely erroneous... I solo quests on R7.. and have no problem absolutely OBLITERATING any mob before it gets close enough to 1 shot me.... I think the problem is your build, not the content!
And this is why they applied those nerfs in the first place, at was too widespread, and less build/ability dependant, also taking no account of the added risks melee took to apply damage.

I'm not comfortable seeing them reversed at this point, as like your experience, I don't see sufficient evidence for it in game. Others differ in opinion and perspective, hence these threads.

FWIW I don't expect the Devs to roll them back, but that won't stop folks from trying to apply what influence they think they can through the forums. ?
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
I find the op's statement to be almost completely erroneous... I solo quests on R7.. and have no problem absolutely OBLITERATING any mob before it gets close enough to 1 shot me.... I think the problem is your build, not the content!

It's not a constant difference, for some reason, R7/R8 made it a somewhat small difference but on R10 it's much bigger. I am not sure why. It goes from about ~90% damage on spells compared to melee down to ~68% on R10.

Soling R7 or R8 is a lot different than R10, especially now on a caster.

I'd be fine with let's say a 10% reduction from R7-R10, it's really the R10 penalty that makes no sense to me. Why does it get worse as skulls go up? It is like they don't want caster DPS to work much at all in R10, and I think that is bad for the game.

Note I am not really talking about solo R10, even grouping on R10 this makes DPS casters too far below melee/ranged.

176.90%
266.70%
355.60%
445.50%
537.00%
630.30%
725.0% - Spells 23.0%0.92
820.8% - Spells 18.8%0.903846154
917.9% - Spells 14.9%0.832402235
1015.6% - Spells 10.6%0.679487179
 
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EinarMal

Well-known member
Can somebody explain to me why these forums are full of threads about how one build or another should br nerfed rather than why other builds need a buff. Seems petty to me. like, "I don't like playing class X therefore if it preforms better than the class I like it should be nerfed"
This thread is about reducing the R7+ penalty in reaper on casters. There might be some people asking for nerfs but not everyone.

That is actually a thread about buffs (or at least un-nerf).
 

Ped Xing

Well-known member
And this is why they applied those nerfs in the first place, at was too widespread, and less build/ability dependant, also taking no account of the added risks melee took to apply damage.
With dragon lord roar there is an argument to be made that melee can now apply their DPS risk free
Druid's main CC is BogW and GCS - roughly the same range as roar but lower DC - should druids now get the same defences and DPS as melee?
 
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Guntango

Well-known member
With dragon lord roar there is an argument to be made that melee can now apply their DPS risk free
Druid's main CC is BogW and GCS - roughly the same range as roar but lower DC - should druids now get the same defences and DPS as melee?
Meh. A weak argument, sure.
 

Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
With dragon lord roar there is an argument to be made that melee can now apply their DPS risk free
Druid's main CC is BogW and GCS - roughly the same range as roar but lower DC - should druids now get the same defences and DPS as melee?
I haven't found dragonlord cc to be too good or even as good as caster cc.

I do think blanket nerfs that impact over-performing and under-performing the same should be avoided and even reversed with more appropriate adjustments made. I still would like to better understand why the R10 dps nerf was so extreme and impacted so many below-median builds.

I find earthquake and tsunami to be useful cc for a druid also - not sure I agree with Burst of Glacial Wrath and Greater Color Spray being primary cc, but instead having multiple sources that go against different saves is always good. I know many druids that don't want to invest in a feat in bogw and don't want to spend the ap for gcs and they perform very well without both.
 

EinarMal

Well-known member
I haven't found dragonlord cc to be too good or even as good as caster cc.

I do think blanket nerfs that impact over-performing and under-performing the same should be avoided and even reversed with more appropriate adjustments made. I still would like to better understand why the R10 dps nerf was so extreme and impacted so many below-median builds.

I find earthquake and tsunami to be useful cc for a druid also - not sure I agree with Burst of Glacial Wrath and Greater Color Spray being primary cc, but instead having multiple sources that go against different saves is always good. I know many druids that don't want to invest in a feat in bogw and don't want to spend the ap for gcs and they perform very well without both.
I agree I don't think they need to nerf dragonlord, its ok if something is good at least to me.

They should really look at the R10 caster nerf as well as R9, if there needs to be some penalty it should be more like 10% below melee at most given that melee already have much better single target DPS.

176.90%
266.70%
355.60%
445.50%
537.00%
630.30%
725.0% - Spells 23.0%22.5
820.8% - Spells 18.8%18.72
917.9% - Spells 14.9%16.11
1015.6% - Spells 10.6%14.04

The current R10 value is bananas.
 

Oliphant

Well-known member
The R7+ nuker nerf just punishes the slightest flavor, the truly OP (unhinged) will be affected the least in the final outcomes. Seems like devs either cannot bother or cannot fathom where the outlier DPS comes from so they just nerf everyone and its lame. Nerfing Cleric and Wizard dps? Get a grip! All this pressure constantly put on the player base just causes people to go meta, more people going meta, people going harder into meta. Human groups are anti-fragile and the system (the players) ultimately thrives (at thwarting the devs) under stress.
 

songswrath

Well-known member
With dragon lord roar there is an argument to be made that melee can now apply their DPS risk free
Druid's main CC is BogW and GCS - roughly the same range as roar but lower DC - should druids now get the same defences and DPS as melee?
if you can take a hit dont matter what your roar d/c is you are a soul stone be fore it goes off
 
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