Why are casters still nerfed in R7+?

bleach

Well-known member
I didnt say that. Maybe re-read. I asked a question. Then made a comment.

Alright. Then no, the nerfs or caster dps had nothing to do with your performance, because they only apply to r7+ and you was running r5. The monk was just killing faster because he was probably using up to date gear ( as most people do ) and not 6 years old gear that's totally outdated. He most likely bothered filling some augments and filis aswell

If you did put the effort into doing the same your dps would be much better :)
 

Jasparius

Well-known member
Alright. Then no, the nerfs or caster had nothing to do with your performance, because they only apply to r7+ and you was running r5. The monk was just killing faster because he was probably using up to date gear ( as most people do ) and not 6 years old gear that's totally outdated. He most likely bothered filling some augments and filis aswell

If you did put the effort into doing the same your dps would be much better :)

Its not about my performance. Its about the original comment I made on the R10 LFM which said No Casters - where the nerf would apply.

Separately I made a comment about the Monk. Im aware of the limitations on my character.
 

Dom

Well-known member
Its not about my performance. Its about the original comment I made on the R10 LFM which said No Casters - where the nerf would apply.

Separately I made a comment about the Monk. Im aware of the limitations on my character.
The R10 LFM would have said "no DC casters", which is different than "no casters". A DC caster is one who is solely focused on CC/instakills and doesn't do DPS, and is therefore unaffected by the nerf to casters.
 

Ped Xing

Well-known member
... the original comment I made on the R10 LFM which said No Casters ...
If you saw that LFM on Argo related to R10 runs, it's mine.

And technically, it says 'No IK casters please' and after a million tells asking what an IK caster is now, 'No instakill casters please'

In my experience, in r10 legendary content, instakill casters (sorcs mostly) are OP. Run by a skilled player, they will get 95% of the kills in a quest, tank the dooms, heal the party via exalted ED/hands and cc the 5% of MOBS that can't be instakilled - all while zooming ahead with haste boosts and wings. They make the game boring for me, so i exclude them from my LFMs.

I have no problems with DPS casters in my pugs because i find they are balanced with most melee. Kill counts are split relatively even between melee and DPS caster. I have gotten a TON of positive feedback from melee players that they appreciate the tweaked LFMs and i have fun - which is all i really care about :)
 

PraetorPlato

Well-known member
With the new xpac, SSG is also removing artifact bonuses to specific spell types like fire. If you keep using the older gear you can avoid that outcome for now.
They’re not “removing” them, they’re just not in this xpac. They also weren’t in dread, but dread was a substantial buff to casters, not a nerf. You’re expected to layer gear from different expacs and adventure packs to generate better results.
 

Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
They’re not “removing” them, they’re just not in this xpac. They also weren’t in dread, but dread was a substantial buff to casters, not a nerf. You’re expected to layer gear from different expacs and adventure packs to generate better results.
I stated you can keep using existing gear, but they removed these affixes from new gear. I don't think the intent is to layer gear at all - I think a stealth or unintentional decision was made to discontinue these items. Much like the loss of insightful lore items for radiance, nullification, etc. at some point if they aren't replaced the old items become too out of date to justify using.

If SSG is discontinuing that extra 6% it should be factored into overall balance discussions as the recent nerfs were based on performance that include that significant 6% lore.

Also, looking over all the gear listed I only use one regular lore item and that is on a rune arm. Not sure how lore items were completely overlooked in the new gear set.
 

PraetorPlato

Well-known member
I stated you can keep using existing gear, but they removed these affixes from new gear. I don't think the intent is to layer gear at all - I think a stealth or unintentional decision was made to discontinue these items. Much like the loss of insightful lore items for radiance, nullification, etc. at some point if they aren't replaced the old items become too out of date to justify using.

If SSG is discontinuing that extra 6% it should be factored into overall balance discussions as the recent nerfs were based on performance that include that significant 6% lore.

Also, looking over all the gear listed I only use one regular lore item and that is on a rune arm. Not sure how lore items were completely overlooked in the new gear set.
Look, every single expac has gearing holes you're expected to cover with past expacs. Do you think vecna was a "stealth nerf" because it didn't include rings, so there was a clear intent by SSG to discontinue rings? Feywild didn't include artifact typed spell lore, but came right on the heals of the Lord of Blades/MA revamp, which did, and before S/S/S modernization, which also did. There's no reason to think that just because a stat isn't in the latest pack, it's not ever going to be used again, and SSG doesn't intend you to have it.
 

Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
Look, every single expac has gearing holes you're expected to cover with past expacs. Do you think vecna was a "stealth nerf" because it didn't include rings, so there was a clear intent by SSG to discontinue rings? Feywild didn't include artifact typed spell lore, but came right on the heals of the Lord of Blades/MA revamp, which did, and before S/S/S modernization, which also did. There's no reason to think that just because a stat isn't in the latest pack, it's not ever going to be used again, and SSG doesn't intend you to have it.

The last update to include artifact lore for specific spell types like fire was update 53 over 2 years ago, so we are not talking about 1 or 2 updates here. We are talking about over 2 years.

Since they are effectively removed from current gear sets I do think it is worthy of discussion.

C'mon, you are comparing what I am saying based on over 2 years of data to thinking they might discontinue rings entirely based on 1 release - at least make a reasonable comparison sir.
 
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PraetorPlato

Well-known member
The last update to include artifact lore for specific spell types like fire was update 53 over 2 years ago, so we are not talking about 1 or 2 updates here. We are talking about over 2 years.

Since they are effectively removed from current gear sets I do think it is worthy of discussion.

C'mon, you are comparing what I am saying based on over 2 years of data to thinking they might discontinue rings entirely based on 1 release - at least make a reasonable comparison sir.
Until either the values on artifact sets go up, or the items are actually removed from the game, I don't think it makes sense to say casters are getting a nerf because they don't have access to an affix that they have 4+ ways of getting on sets, most of them very compact and stat-dense.
 

Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
Until either the values on artifact sets go up, or the items are actually removed from the game, I don't think it makes sense to say casters are getting a nerf because they don't have access to an affix that they have 4+ ways of getting on sets, most of them very compact and stat-dense.

I am basing it on how the insightful lore bonuses for radiance and nullification lore were handled that used to cover the gap with energy criticals. There was no announcement they were just discontinued with the last item being from Sharn I believe.

So yes I think this situation is similar to what happened to insightful raciance and nullification lore items. And since the last typed artifact lore bonus was rolled out feburary 2022 I do think enough time has passed to start considering this is a permanent direction rather than a few updates without a specific type of item.

Yes I do and still consider it a stealth nerf as it partially locks you out of using the latest gear across 4 level updates. The last time it was included in gear the level cap was 30 and it will now be 34.
 
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Sarlona Raiding

Well-known member
Yet you do nothing to fix them, but come to complain about nerfs or how properly geared characters out-dps you. I suspect that's the problem with many of the casters who think they have no dps.
The op original concern is the R7-R10 debuffs. Currently in R10 casters have a multiplier of 10.6 vs. the martial multiplier of 15.6. 5% doesn't sounds like a lot, but in reality the difference is 15.6/10.6 which is over 47%. So if on R1 casters and melee are doing the same damage a martial build would be doing 47% more damage than the caster on R10. At least with all my testing casters have some solid aoe dps, esp against cc'd mobs, but martial dps is much higher than caster dps against single targets without the nerf.

Presumably SSG did this stop aoe damage which they actually contributed to by overbuffing helpless damage. Why they landed with a 47% spread is unknown since they seem to already understand how much weaker caster single target dps is. They must really hate the aoe damage.
 

erethizon1

Well-known member
It really needs to be reconsidered after the nerfs to epic strikes.

Especially because they way they did it had a disproportionately heavier impact on weaker builds than the stronger ones. Like DC wizards really needed the same amount of downward adjustment on their damaging spells as cold druids and sorcs.

For me it was one of SSG's worst balancing efforts, right up there with the EDF stance in terms of hamfistedness. Zero care, zero consideration.
This is the part that always bothers me about the way they do things. They identify one or two classes that are overpowered, and nerf all the classes, including the weak ones. Clerics and Warlocks were never the problem. If a particular class is overperforming, nerf that class, not all classes.
 

Mindos

CHAOTIC EVIL
Why doesn't SSG just divide the number of kills by the number of people in the group who did damage, with a 1D10 percent vary?

People would get that random "I led the kill count!" feeling they seem to be so very much after, and everyone's forum reading would get so much lighter.
 
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