Why SWF and Perfect SWF for caster alchemists?

[Grimstad]

Just wondering why I commonly see SWF and PSWF taken in builds posted for a caster alchemist. With defenses generally being what they are for alchemist, if you are close enough to engage in melee combat, you're in big trouble anyway. I read elsewhere that it adds some HP. If so, how many hit points? Are they enough to warrant using a valuable feat? Are the HP something that could be obtained somewhere else, freeing up two feats to be used elsewhere, such as Mental Toughness/Improved Mental Toughness, so we can keep mobs off us in the first place?

Thanks for your input.

 

[minamber]

You should look at the description of the heroic durability feat that everyone gets at lvl 1.
Combat feats do give a large bonus to hp that stack with everything else (up to a limit of 4), and personally I find the extra hp much more useful than most of the caster feats you can get. The goal is to have enough hp and defences to not be killed in 1 hit on r10, and combat feats definitely help with that.

 

[vryxnr]

I may also be missing some nuance depending on the build, but the main thing is the extra HP. Things can damage you without you being in melee (enemy ranged attacks, casters casting spells, traps, environmental effects, etc). If it means the difference between getting one shot, and surviving one hit, even just barely, then it's worth it (cause at least then you can continue fighting and have a chance to recover without waiting on death timers)

At level 34, every +2 to Con is an extra 34 HP.
At level 34, each Toughness feat is +36 HP
Epic toughness is +50, but you must be level 21 and have a con of 21+ and have already taken normal toughness as well
Legendary Toughness is +100, but you must be level 31 and have a con of 21+

Heroic Durability bonuses from combat feats vary by class as they scale off your base hit dice. They also scale as you level.
For Alchemists:
At level 34, having one combat style feat nets you 47.5 extra HP
At level 34, having two combat style feats nets you 95 extra HP
At level 34, having three combat style feats nets you 142.5 extra HP
At level 34, having four combat style feats nets you 190 extra HP

Now, why choose SWF over Shield master or TWF or THF or Natural Fighting? Prerequisites.

Natural Fighting requires druid or blightcaster levels, so that's out.
All the others have BAB requirements. TWF, THF, and SWF go up to +11 BAB, while the Shield line goes up to +13 BAB, though the first in each line starts at +0 BAB required.
The Shield line also requires proficiency in shields first, which may cost an extra feat as well.
TWF line eventually also requires a Dex score of 17+, but starts at 15 required
THF line eventually also requires a Str score of 17+, but starts at 15 required
SWF line eventually also requires a Balance skill score of 7+, but starts at 2 required

The Perfect feat for each line only has a level requirement of 22+ and having one of the combat style feats in the related line.

Balance is a class skill for Alchemists, so it's really easy to get, and well worth the 2 skill points, especially compared to trying to spread out ability points to stats you don't use (str of dex) for the other lines. Ability points are much better spent on main stat and con, then and only then putting points into others with what is left.

So (ignoring legendary toughness as that can be taken as an extra regardless), one could take toughness and epic toughness for a total of +86 HP at level 34.
OR one could take SWF and PSWF to gain +95 HP at level 34.

I don't recall off the top of my head how they all interact with % based boosts though, but from a plain comparison, the combat style feats have the clear advantage.

Here is the wiki entry for Heroic Durability, which is what the combat style feats modify, and it includes a table that shows the values of HP gained by each class for how many taken and at base, level 20 and level 34.

 

[DBZ]

If you want those just dragonlord there built for that crap with better everything

And a damn strike that still works in r10s

 

[Grimstad]

I have no plans to play at L34 for a long, long time. I am currently leveling to 30, then ER/rTR for the foreseeable future enroute to racial completionist (have only completed 2 rTRs as of this writing). Knowing this, are SWF/PSWF still worth the 90 (?) HP at L30? That's less than 10% of the current HP I have at L26 (997 HP). (actually less than 997 since I've already taken SWF/ISWF)

Whereas, Mental Toughness/Improved MT gives +310 SP at level 30, and increases your spell critical chance by 2% (assuming they stack and my calculations are correct).

Apples and oranges, I know, but you're trading some amount of extra durability for some amount of offense.

Not arguing, just trying to reason my best choices. I understand the majority of uber players choose the extra durability, I'm sure for good reason.

If you want those just dragonlord there built for that crap with better everything

And a damn strike that still works in r10s

Current plan for this character is to remain at L34 alchemist once my goals have been reached, then I can start working on alts. Most likely a melee of some type, probably something tanky, maybe paladin or a multiclass of some sort. I don't know how to multiclass yet, but I understand there are some popular multiclass builds out there.

 

[vryxnr]

The wiki table I linked to above shows how much HP each feat is worth per level for each class. So instead of multiplying that number by 34, multiply it by 30. Then multiply that by how many combat style feats you have, up to a max of 4.

Your build is your build, but for most people, dying in 2 hits vs dying in one hit is a huge boon. You can't do DPS when you're dead after all. For most people, unless you are one shotting everything and never get hit by enemy ranged/casters and reliably avoid all other damaging effects as well, and/or have a static party and someone else is a solid tank who you let get all the aggro before you attack and thus they take all the damage and you can focus purely on DPS and not worry about surviving at all, the extra HP is worth considering and for most it is very much worth it.

 

[DBZ]

5DL 15 pally for the win

 

[vryxnr]

5DL 15 pally for the win

Is that a suggestion for a future multiclassed alt? Or is that a suggestion to forgo all things alchemist? If it's the former, then fine. If it's the latter, then I have issue, as this is the Alchemist subforum, and the OP was asking about the nuance of feats for a pure Alchemist.

 

[DBZ]

Former since he said hes making melee alts after

 

[Grimstad]

Thanks for the advice, you've convinced me

I run in PUGs, and am very much subject to aggro when I start casting those multi vials. It's fine in R1, but when they crank it up to R4 I do a lot of running away, a la Monty Python.

 

[DBZ]

Hp is not a defense its a buffer layering defenses will do alot more and you have to sacrifice other things you really need to get it

1'st and best defense always DPS devs in there infinite wisdom deleted all the burst damage thats the main problem then CC

Then prr, mrr, resistances, absorbs, dodge, incorp, ac mostly useless, layering them helps more vs actual threats like champs

Then ez buttons deflect arrows, spell absorbs positioning and memorization and kill target priorities ranged champs are one of the biggest threats

 

[SpartanKiller13]

Thanks for the advice, you've convinced me

I run in PUGs, and am very much subject to aggro when I start casting those multi vials. It's fine in R1, but when they crank it up to R4 I do a lot of running away, a la Monty Python.

If you can get -100% spell threat it's a lot easier to stay low on the aggro table (obviously if solo or if nobody else has hit them there's no difference).

Bombardier gets -60% in T1, so it's pretty easy to cap -spell threat in epics; Fatesinger, Magus, or Shadowdancer for -30ish plus anything else and you're there. Stealth Strike, Mystic Diversion, augments, Discipline w/Magus, etc.

Also in case you didn't know: as long as you have a mob hard targeted you can throw vials backwards while running away

 

[Grimstad]

Also in case you didn't know: as long as you have a mob hard targeted you can throw vials backwards while running away

Yes one of the great things about alchemist

 

[Spook]

You are missing out on a lot of progression if you dont take advantage of reaper first time bonuses every life instead of ETR/TRing immediately at 30.

 

[SpartanKiller13]

You are missing out on a lot of progression if you dont take advantage of reaper first time bonuses every life instead of ETR/TRing immediately at 30.

In terms of optimal route to maximize long-term gains you're definitely correct, but ya miss out on a lot more progression if you quit after forcing yourself to do stuff you hate XD

 

[Spook]

Maybe but I would rather earn 250K reaper points every life than 25M reaper points on the last life. It also makes every subsequent 1-30 easier too.

 

[Grimstad]

You are missing out on a lot of progression if you dont take advantage of reaper first time bonuses every life instead of ETR/TRing immediately at 30.

Explain please

 

[woq]

Explain please

When you complete a quest for the first time, you get more experience for it. This includes Reaper Experience.

Quests give vastly more reaper experience at legendary levels. Doing some legendary quests at cap would allow you to progress your reaper trees at a much increased rate.

Used to be that people bought 50% xp pots to drink *after* hitting cap to gain maximum RXP benefits for R10 saga runs.

 

[seph1roth5]

Caster classes can still be melee. The alchemist tree gets the same imbue progression as EK and it's very strong. Then Alchy has a ton of self-buffs and heals, so I'm sure it can do very well. I haven't TRIED one yet, but as an inquis it was very strong.

 

[Spook]

When you complete a quest for the first time, you get more experience for it. This includes Reaper Experience.

Quests give vastly more reaper experience at legendary levels. Doing some legendary quests at cap would allow you to progress your reaper trees at a much increased rate.

Used to be that people bought 50% xp pots to drink *after* hitting cap to gain maximum RXP benefits for R10 saga runs.

Exactly. To elaborate further to have a "complete" character you need 156 reaper points which is (156x156)x1000 reaper xp = 24 336 000 rxp

The best way to farm this is at cap as rxp scales with both skulls and level and is doubled for any quest considered legendary.

		Skulls
		1	10
Quest Level	1	53	80
	34	254	2090

Theres enough legendary quests now where you can get 2M rxp at cap if you did all on r10 so setting a goal of 250k rxp every life is doable even solo.