Would you like to see the DC scaling linear or exponential at higher level?

[Hakoist]

• This increase starts out smaller in the heroic levels but increases significantly after reaching level 30

3: The scalars for spell DCs are too granular as-is to provide meaningful progression as players level throughout the game. Through all of the current flow from 30-40, a standard single-school spell DC item will start at +6 DCs and then increase to +7 DCs, so you won't actually be scaling appropriately versus the content - that's only a net gain of +1 DCs for 10 whole levels of questing. Right now our monsters scale up relatively linearly through certain blocks of content, and the saving throws of monsters do increase every time we make a higher quest level. Itemization should also be scaling upwards as it increases in min level/ilevel, otherwise you won't be able to improve your equipment loadout effectively as you increase in character level. Other item affixes that are less granular are able to scale upwards appropriately, and moving spell DCs to a formula that increases more sharply will help higher-level items feel stronger than lower-level ones, which is something we really would like to enforce.

34: +11 Equipment, +5 Insightful
33: +10 Equipment, +5 Insightful
32: +10 Equipment, +4 Insightful
31: +9 Equipment, +4 Insightful
30: +8 Equipment, +4 Insightful
29: +7 Equipment, +3 Insightful
28: +7 Equipment, +3 Insightful
27: +7 Equipment, +3 Insightful
26: +7 Equipment, +3 Insightful
25: +7 Equipment, +3 Insightful
24: +6 Equipment, +3 Insightful
23: +6 Equipment, +3 Insightful
22: +6 Equipment, +3 Insightful
21: +6 Equipment, +3 Insightful
20: +6 Equipment, +3 Insightful
19: +5 Equipment, +2 Insightful
... (didn't test below this yet)

Do you like to see the DC scaling linear or exponential at higher level?

Rough estimation if the proposal is 11/5 at level 34 (ins accuracy and deadly progression)

Min Level	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26	27	28	29	30	31	32	33	34
Spell Focus (one type)	0	1	1	2	2	2	3	3	3	4	4	4	5	5	5	5	6	6	6	7	7	7	8	8	8	8	9	9	9	10	10	10	11	11
Ins. Spell focus (one)	0	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	2	2	2	2	2	2	2	3	3	3	3	3	3	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	5	5	5	5	5

 

[Wheelie Average Gaming UK]

They should revise the curve at all levels not just legendary.

 

[Smokewolf]

Do you like to see the DC scaling linear or exponential at higher level?

Rough estimation if the proposal is 11/5 at level 34 (ins accuracy and deadly progression)

Min Level	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26	27	28	29	30	31	32	33	34
Spell Focus (one type)	0	1	1	2	2	2	3	3	3	4	4	4	5	5	5	5	6	6	6	7	7	7	8	8	8	8	9	9	9	10	10	10	11	11
Ins. Spell focus (one)	0	0	0	1	1	1	1	1	1	2	2	2	2	2	2	2	3	3	3	3	3	3	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	5	5	5	5	5

This assumes that the mobs stats grow at a linear rate as well. Which currently they don't, not even close. Never mind that too many mobs have immunities that are not dispellable or reducible in any meaningful way that DC casters can use reliably.

All this ignores the main casters problems and attempts to gloss over things be adjusting how a few stats scale. Not enough to make up for Reaper penalties, compounding Nerfs, and unbelievable amounts of gear Tetris.

 

[Hakoist]

This assumes that the mobs stat grow at a linear rate as well. Which currently thy don't, not even close. Never mind that too many mobs have immunities that are not dispellable or reducible in any meaningful way that DC casters can use reliably.

All this ignores the main casters problems and attempts to gloss over things be adjusting how a few stats scale. Not enough to make up for Reaper penalties, compounding Nerfs, and unbelievable amounts of gear Tetris.

Not that I disagree caster got plenty of issues.
But if the change this time is DC boost, then I think we should focus on DC boost discussion.

I think the lv34 single school should match stunning/vertigo/trip DC which is 16 as lv32

 

[Smokewolf]

Not that I disagree caster got plenty of issues.
But if the change this time is DC boost, then I think we should focus on DC boost discussion.

I think the lv34 single school should match stunning/vertigo/trip DC which is 16 as lv32

The problem is that discissions on the issue dont really matter. Not when the Dev's will add this to update 80 regardless of player feedback.

Truth being this isn't about helping casters, but about further monetizing the Gear-Tetris at cap, by providing a reason for casters to purchase augment tools. In other-words this is another engineered-inconvenience designed to extranct more wealth from players. Effectively taking advantage of the horrible caster situation (they created) to turn a profit, while doing next to nothing to address it.

Meanwhile there is nothing to stop dev's from making the mob stat-bloat and immunities even worse, in order to further perpetuate the cycle later on. A.K A. Sliding goal-posts, when ever SSG needs to boost store sales at any given fiscal quarter. After all, the players are not the target audience for DDO, the investors are.

 

[Hakoist]

The new expansion could have a lot single school base/ins lv35 items which is far more superior than the IOD +8 augment and +3 ins spell focus in current gear.
That could sell a lot.

I still have a first life bard which gear to build DC (105ish), though DC doesnt really matter as a buffer/healer.
A linear progression can reduce my effort of gearing, but a exp progression like now wont make me re-gear my bard. It is still far from a working DC (130)

 

[Smokewolf]

The new expansion could have a lot single school base/ins lv35 items which is far more superior than the IOD +8 augment and +3 ins spell focus in current gear.
That could sell a lot.

I still have a first life bard which gear to build DC (105ish), though DC doesnt really matter as a buffer/healer.
A linear progression can reduce my effort of gearing, but a exp progression like now wont make me re-gear my bard. It is still far from a working DC (130)

But gearing based "fixes" are not the correct path to resolve issues that go back to Reaper and Class nerfs. All this does is reward SSG for creating yet another hoop for players to jump thru.

 

[Supot]

The exponential approach is like the "Stat inflation" they had years ago.

This Exponential DC proposal will more benefit players who are doing high reaper Myth / Lamordia and beyond,
but there are complaints that there is a problem with New / Casual players not being able to hit enough DC for Legendary.
Having a linear curve makes it easier for them.

 

[Eme]

I'd rather see the game mechanics, and enemy AI be what advances with levels more

 

[Lazuli]

They need to adjust how mobs scale, it's obvious. The thing is that they sold us a stat squish with the big banner of reducing power creep, having smooth scaling and so on and now (as always) they are already doing the opposite, raising power creep and scaling because...

Why? They have control of the npcs' stats. Lower them. See how easy it is. And here anyone can't come with sophistry of wotc looking above us blah blah. No. Devs and only devs have control of the monsters.

What they need to do is simplify the caster gear, and not need so much individual dc per school and per element. As if martials need to equip all their stats: dousbleshot/strike, melee/rangedpower, damage, accuracy, tactics several times to be able to affect different types of enemies.

The equipment slots are what they are. They aren't infinite. It's not okay to divide everything.

They can't inflate the monster stats and then say: we need to increase the scalar to keep you competitive, what a shame that the equipment from two previous levels is already obsolete. Sorry, devs? You have control of the monsters.

It's amazing how they can't maintain a design decision for even a couple of years without sabotaging it and doing the opposite shortly after. And then really terrible design decisions that should have been overturned a long time ago seem set in stone.

 

[Smokewolf]

The exponential approach is like the "Stat inflation" they had years ago.

This Exponential DC proposal will more benefit players who are doing high reaper Myth / Lamordia and beyond,
but there are complaints that there is a problem with New / Casual players not being able to hit enough DC for Legendary.
Having a linear curve makes it easier for them.

Sorry but no..

The Dev's would 100% tie in a system of diminishing returns. Maybe something similar to what was done with AC and fortitude. Making the gains pretty much worthless past a given point.

While a linear system by contrast has predictable stepped gains. Which most importantly never lose their value / potency as players level up.

 

[Enoach]

I can't help but think we got to this point because physical (melee/range) attacks required raising the Saves of mobs.

I'm actually excited about the idea that they are boosting caster DCs in this way. I'm good with starting with linear progression, if it is a good fix (does not need to be 100% but also better than 70%) than they fixed it, if not look at where that is dropping off and adjust from there.

 

[justin credible]

I'm partial to oblate spheroids myself.

 

[Wizard]

DC gains mostly only by equipment doesn't work. Since enemy saves are SKY HIGH you'd need to suffer through 100s of quest completions to farm enough gear before your spells work, even on low difficulties.

It makes no sense that casters DCs are fine in heroic and to a lesser degree epic and then in legendary you drop to ALL your spells failing on ELITE.


I would like to see the following:

Casters can get a lot of DC from feats and enhancements just like Dragonlords (or even as much DC as AT, but not via skill)

 

[Hakoist]

DC gains mostly only by equipment doesn't work. Since enemy saves are SKY HIGH you'd need to suffer through 100s of quest completions to farm enough gear before your spells work, even on low difficulties.

It makes no sense that casters DCs are fine in heroic and to a lesser degree epic and then in legendary you drop to ALL your spells failing on ELITE.


I would like to see the following:

Casters can get a lot of DC from feats and enhancements just like Dragonlords (or even as much DC as AT, but not via skill)

Yeah but I have just learned they actually want to nerf caster further so I have not much further to add lol

 

[Fizzix]

The D20 approach on spell saves is not compatible with continual level increase / monster saves per expansion.

all kinds of mental gymnastics and justifications and gear adjustments just to keep running into the same problem over and over,

youre going to end up with DCs that are too low to be meaningful or if theyre high enough to add some randomness to longtime players they will be much too high for non uber PL'd casters and they lock out a non insignificant portion of the players, which makes casters less viable class.

Its just math. if the spread of DC from a triple completionist with BIS gear vs a rando wearing all quest blues who stopped min maxing at equipment and insightful bonuses exceeds ~10 DC, then the system broken due to the mechanics of complete resist or 1/2 damage.

If they wanted to make nuking scale similar to melee then the caster the damage calc for spells should be:

total dmg = [spell damage calc'd out(die, power crit crit bonus etc] * spell caster level(or DC) / mob CR

that way as you level your spells hit harder and they scale with both higher level mobs and your level and max caster level. That way they dont have to be so sparse in equipment buffs.

a complete glass cannon min maxed character should probably have about a 20% dps advantage over a quest geared caster, imho.

that way a big boy/girl completionist is outperforming a noob, but it scales linearially based on how much effort you put in to get there.

not full damage vs hit with wet purse.

 

[Hakoist]

That could be nice for other game but DnD d20 is quite a tradition
The noob would just go crossbow after some understanding at endgame

 

[Fizzix]

That could be nice for other game but DnD d20 is quite a tradition
The noob would just go crossbow after some understanding at endgame

If we fail to address and ignore the root cause problem, anything can be a possible solution