XP System Suggestions

seph1roth5

Well-known member
I understand the devs' thinking behind the XP system change, but, as 20+ pages of comments have said (probably) unanimously, we don't like it. I'm going to try and keep this updated with peoples' suggestions.

Devs are saying that lag/server load are caused by too much monster pathing, and with the way people play, they leave behind a lot of mobs as they zerg through the dungeon apparently. Which is weird, because my group and all the pugs I run with rush quests, but kill everything along the way. I've only been in one group that charged forward ignoring mobs, and it was weird lol.


Someone (cordo?) asked for ideas on what would make players slow it down, so here's some I collected from the big thread. Now super zergers are going to zerg, superly. You can boost DA monsters, slow playersdown, whatever, but unless you make red alert kill all players, they're probably still going to do it. You need fairly good incentives if you want them to kill along the way.


*These all assume a boost to conquest/aggression/etc. xp, and DITCHING the other proposed changes to first time/delving/whatever.


***Boost XP from kills more***
- Basically, make conquest and other XP bonuses from kills larger. There are many quests where people won't bother with conquest, but if the XP was worth it to branch out more, people would probably take the time to add another few min to the quest.
- Can also boost xp from breakables to encourage exploring. But both should be big increases, like...double the normal rates. Don't just give both small boosts so you have to get ransack+conquest to get anything decent.


***Add a further staggered bonus for not triggering dungeon alert***
- Kind of like a flawless XP bonus, something you start with but can lose it. Obviously some quests with unavoidable DA would need a fix. So (just throwing out numbers here) if there was a 30% xp boost for no alerts, 15% for hitting yellow, 5% for orange, 0% for red, it would also give players a big incentive to slow it down a little bit and kill everything on the way.


***Boosted drop rates***
- Doesn't have to be big, and could be a staggered bonus as well. Like +3% drop rate for no alerts, +2 for yellow, then nothing after. On elite, it's a 10% multiplier, which both doesn't sound that high and sounds like a nice boost lol. I think this would slow down people in epics definitely because even junk loot can be sentient food. For heroic...probably not as much.
- Could also tie drop rate boost to kill bonuses if it's too hard to code it to DA. Might not work well on some quests but I think the vast majority of them would pair well.


***Further AI changes***
- Like saltmarsh wilderness, have mobs not aggro until you're much closer or shoot them. This was apparently a change to reduce lag in wildernesses, so it should be a positive for quests too. Players might still zerg but by swinging wide they might be able to avoid triggering a lot mobs completely. Now, I understand some quests might be made TOO easy, and that would be fine to fiddle with so they're spread out a bit more maybe. I get you not wanting people to zoom through and beat a quest in 1 min that takes 5 min because they have a high jump and wings. But...would just want the outliers to be changed, not change EVERY quest so that you still have to trigger every mob, that's completely contrary to the point.
- Could also further tweak the ranges monsters see, how far they follow you, when they return home, etc.


***Make DA an emergency release***
- Make it so on yellow alert, all monsters teleport back to their spawn point. So, players can hit green alert and have a chance to beat it down, or, if they keep plowing ahead, just have them all disengage from a fight that isn't going to happen anyway. It might lead to quicker completion times for super zergers, but they were going to do that anyway, so might just take off 10-20 sec. It also lets more casual players not get bogged down by high alerts they have to now fight through. I think it'll be a big decrease in DA mobs all around.


***Thin mobs***
- Another change that was made to wildernesses to combat lag that could be applied to quests too. If, across the board, mobs were reduced by say 15%, that should be a lot less monsters to path shouldn't it? Of course, numbers for conquest and quests where you have to kill a set # of monsters would have to be adjusted too, but I think that wouldn't be THAT big a list. Maybe 30-40 quests? Not sure if conquest is something that a blanket change can be applied to or if it's chosen on a quest by quest basis, which would be uhhh every quest heh.


***Monster XP per kill instead of at benchmarks***
- Seen this pop up a few times. But I think the gist is instead of having flat aggression/onslaught/conquest, just get xp at the end of the quest based on how many monsters killed. Might have to fiddle with some quests with infinite mobs I guess. There might be some sort of easy formula you could apply like quest lv*10 xp per kill or something, maybe with a difficulty modifier. Numbers should be the easy part but I'm just spitballing here.


***Do nothing***
- See if the AI changes (and to a lesser extend DA ones, though I wish those would stay left out too lol) are a big enough difference before fiddling with XP.


***Monster Manual Boost***
- Give more/new bonuses for killing more/different monsters, kind of like favored enemy. To give incentive to kill more


***Increase Optional XP/Rewards***
- More XP for optionals. Add in better rewards in optional chests to encourage people to diverge from the main path. Sentient xp, regular xp stones, stuff like that. It's kind of like how in legendary you might go off the main path a bit for crafting mats/sentient food.

***Random dungeon encounters***
- Random stuff that could appear in dungeons that would get people to look for it. Kind of like the curious door in feywild maybe? Would take more effort, maybe. Might not be that hard to whip up 5-10 randos and just tie it to base XP.

***More crafting systems with more collectibles***
- Ores/herbs, potion-making, could be all sorts of stuff. If there were more things to collect in quests, players would be more likely to branch out as well.


***Spread out DA penalties over time***
- Instead of immediately buffing all monsters and harrying you, give you say, 10 sec to get rid of the DA before changes start going into effect, with them ramping up progressively at 30 and 60 sec maybe.


***Have kill bonuses be based on monsters aggro'd instead of total monsters***
- This would make it so you don't have to look at every quest, and would give a bump to stealth playstyles as well. So if you manage to sneak through a quest and only get noticed by 5 monsters, but kill them, that'd get you conquest. It would also directly affect the people you're trying to slow down. If you aggro 50 monsters and kill 5, that's no bonus, so would be worth it for the theoretical superzergers that you think we all are to stop and kill more than they were before.



Plan B:

***Reduce XP Needed to Level***
- IF you keep some kind of system that makes xp slower for everyone (like the original change), then redo the XP curve at all levels. That way, even though many people will still zerg, the ones that don't won't be hurt as much, if at all. So say a non-zerger normally takes 8 hours to get 3.8mil xp and go from 1-20 before, and with original changes now takes 10 hours to get 3.8mil. If the xp curve changed to only require 3.3mil (just throwing out numbers), they could do that in 8 hours. It'd take the same time to level for non-zergers, and nobody gets shot in the foot.
 
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mikarddo

Well-known member
Wait. See what the effect of the AI and DA changes are before committing to any changes to the xp system.
By far the simpler solution.
 

Zokathra

Active member
When completing a quest, give bonus XP per monster kill, instead of a percentage bonus for reaching an arbitrary number of kills.

That way, instead of, for example, I spend several minutes hunting down spare monsters yet end up still being x kills away from that 25% bonus, I'll not bother killing anything the next -everytime- I run that quest in the future, and just zerg the quest to completion. Which is specifically what you're trying to avoid players doing, right?

Instead, I'm more likely to hunt down roaming monsters as I know I'll be getting something for it, regardless.
 

Lacci

Well-known member
When completing a quest, give bonus XP per monster kill, instead of a percentage bonus for reaching an arbitrary number of kills.

That way, instead of, for example, I spend several minutes hunting down spare monsters yet end up still being x kills away from that 25% bonus, I'll not bother killing anything the next -everytime- I run that quest in the future, and just zerg the quest to completion. Which is specifically what you're trying to avoid players doing, right?

Instead, I'm more likely to hunt down roaming monsters as I know I'll be getting something for it, regardless.
I made a similar suggestion in the other thread, but would even go a step further and award the XP per monster kill right away and not on completion of the quest. And the same in the wilderness areas.

I find it strange that they sell XP potions that are on a timer and now with the changes to conquest bonus they give an incentive to kill more monsters than before and then they are surprised that players cause DA and zerg through the quests as fast as possible ?!

When you tell players "Kill 100 monsters or you won´t get anything" and then also put them on a timer, they will zerg.
Instead, when you get XP for every monster you kill, you feel rewarded for it and don´t feel this pressure like "I have to kill 50 more or it will be all for nothing"
Maybe even take away the timers from XP potions and make them last for 1/4, 1/2 or a full level (or rank), depending on the quality of the potion or something like that. So we wouldn´t feel like having to maximize XP/minute.
 

Arcanaverse

Solver of Secrets
Had an idea that I really think could work based on given parameters.

Quick Kills
The basis of the idea is to encourage players to eliminate monsters as quickly as possible.

We a need/desire to defeat monsters quickly it should get players to kill as they encounter and discourage kite and kill tactics often associated with causes of DA. Kill on encounter is also a slower process which may even be enough to get us back to u58 speeds.

An Way to Implement
An approach that I think would really well if the tech to implement is a net positive in lag would be to give monsters 'charges' that are counted down when a monster attack/casts a spell. Players get more 'things' based on the number of remaining charges. The more things a group acquires the bigger/better the reward.

Benefits include but aren't limited to:
- encourages/enforces desired playstyles such as CC first, kill quickly, don't kite, etc.
- all carrot
- no changes to stealth
- best case scenario could even replace systems like DA.

Original link: https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?th...eview-1-xp-system-adjustments.1213/post-15064

Thanks for organizing.
 
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Buddha5440

Well-known member
I understand the devs' thinking behind the XP system change, but, as 20+ pages of comments have said (probably) unanimously, we don't like it. I'm going to try and keep this updated with peoples' suggestions.

Devs are saying that lag/server load are caused by too much monster pathing, and with the way people play, they leave behind a lot of mobs as they zerg through the dungeon apparently. Which is weird, because my group and all the pugs I run with rush quests, but kill everything along the way. I've only been in one group that charged forward ignoring mobs, and it was weird lol.


Someone (cordo?) asked for ideas on what would make players slow it down, so here's some I collected from the big thread. Now super zergers are going to zerg, superly. You can boost DA monsters, slow playersdown, whatever, but unless you make red alert kill all players, they're probably still going to do it. You need fairly good incentives if you want them to kill along the way.


*These all assume a boost to conquest/aggression/etc. xp, and DITCHING the other proposed changes to first time/delving/whatever.


***Boost XP from kills more***
- Basically, make conquest and other XP bonuses from kills larger. There are many quests where people won't bother with conquest, but if the XP was worth it to branch out more, people would probably take the time to add another few min to the quest.
- Can also boost xp from breakables to encourage exploring. But both should be big increases, like...double the normal rates. Don't just give both small boosts so you have to get ransack+conquest to get anything decent.


***Add a further staggered bonus for not triggering dungeon alert***
- Kind of like a flawless XP bonus, something you start with but can lose it. Obviously some quests with unavoidable DA would need a fix. So (just throwing out numbers here) if there was a 30% xp boost for no alerts, 15% for hitting yellow, 5% for orange, 0% for red, it would also give players a big incentive to slow it down a little bit and kill everything on the way.


***Boosted drop rates***
- Doesn't have to be big, and could be a staggered bonus as well. Like +3% drop rate for no alerts, +2 for yellow, then nothing after. On elite, it's a 10% multiplier, which both doesn't sound that high and sounds like a nice boost lol. I think this would slow down people in epics definitely because even junk loot can be sentient food. For heroic...probably not as much.
- Could also tie drop rate boost to kill bonuses if it's too hard to code it to DA. Might not work well on some quests but I think the vast majority of them would pair well.


***Further AI changes***
- Like saltmarsh wilderness, have mobs not aggro until you're much closer or shoot them. This was apparently a change to reduce lag in wildernesses, so it should be a positive for quests too. Players might still zerg but by swinging wide they might be able to avoid triggering a lot mobs completely. Now, I understand some quests might be made TOO easy, and that would be fine to fiddle with so they're spread out a bit more maybe. I get you not wanting people to zoom through and beat a quest in 1 min that takes 5 min because they have a high jump and wings. But...would just want the outliers to be changed, not change EVERY quest so that you still have to trigger every mob, that's completely contrary to the point.
- Could also further tweak the ranges monsters see, how far they follow you, when they return home, etc.


***Make DA an emergency release***
- Make it so on yellow alert, all monsters teleport back to their spawn point. So, players can hit green alert and have a chance to beat it down, or, if they keep plowing ahead, just have them all disengage from a fight that isn't going to happen anyway. It might lead to quicker completion times for super zergers, but they were going to do that anyway, so might just take off 10-20 sec. It also lets more casual players not get bogged down by high alerts they have to now fight through. I think it'll be a big decrease in DA mobs all around.


***Thin mobs***
- Another change that was made to wildernesses to combat lag that could be applied to quests too. If, across the board, mobs were reduced by say 15%, that should be a lot less monsters to path shouldn't it? Of course, numbers for conquest and quests where you have to kill a set # of monsters would have to be adjusted too, but I think that wouldn't be THAT big a list. Maybe 30-40 quests? Not sure if conquest is something that a blanket change can be applied to or if it's chosen on a quest by quest basis, which would be uhhh every quest heh.


***Monster XP per kill instead of at benchmarks***
- Seen this pop up a few times. But I think the gist is instead of having flat aggression/onslaught/conquest, just get xp at the end of the quest based on how many monsters killed. Might have to fiddle with some quests with infinite mobs I guess. There might be some sort of easy formula you could apply like quest lv*10 xp per kill or something, maybe with a difficulty modifier. Numbers should be the easy part but I'm just spitballing here.



***Do nothing***
- See if the AI changes (and to a lesser extend DA ones, though I wish those would stay left out too lol) are a big enough difference before fiddling with XP.



Plan B:

***Reduce XP Needed to Level***
- IF you keep some kind of system that makes xp slower for everyone (like the original change), then redo the XP curve at all levels. That way, even though many people will still zerg, the ones that don't won't be hurt as much, if at all. So say a non-zerger normally takes 8 hours to get 3.8mil xp and go from 1-20 before, and with original changes now takes 10 hours to get 3.8mil. If the xp curve changed to only require 3.3mil (just throwing out numbers), they could do that in 8 hours. It'd take the same time to level for non-zergers, and nobody gets shot in the foot.
Well though out and good ideas.

/Signed
 

somenewnoob

Well-known member
1. Leave everything exactly as it is now.
2. Add a special tier of kills, that gives a VERY LARGE xp bonus for a quest. Encouraging players to kill more.
3. Up optional xp significantly.

And you're done.
 

Dunspartacus

Well-known member
Pretty much any of these suggestions would be a huge improvement on what the current plan. Not sure why they've chosen to lean so heavily in on changing playstyle through punishing players rather than incentivizing them.
 

Neain

Well-known member
because its hard to turn a "one generic change to fix them all" nerf to purposes that are unintended. where as if they try that with a buff, suddenly 5 builds that weren't really meta, become super powerful! or in this case, 5 (arbitrary number) optionals or quests suddenly are giving WAY too much xp
 

seph1roth5

Well-known member
Been updating and adding stuff from here and discord. Too many to try and credit people so we'll just call it a group effort lol.
 

The Narc

Well-known member
Punish red dungeon alert very severely, especially in the places where solutions to the new implementations have suggested AOE casters will just gather more
Mobs up to A Bomb blast as the solution to the new implementations. I suggest a -1 to -2 spell DC adjustment per stack of DA. If we wish to impose the same penalty in melee and ranged they can suffer the same minuses to their to hit and damage.

We need to deter the behaviour that causes the dungeon alert to trigger, the devs have clearly stated that the things that cause DA to trigger are the causes of the lag in game.

Obviously the devs carry the responsibility of not having encounters spawn that create DA automatically.
 

seph1roth5

Well-known member
Mmm I'm very against them just making dungeon alert worse and worse. I'd much rather them give people a reason to not leave enemies behind in their dust (though I still feel like that's a minority). It's really not a good thing to have the devs punish players for playing a certain way, when there are SO many ways to reward them for changing their playstyle instead.

Otherwise, might as well just have red alert insta-kill you. I'd honestly rather my guy die than be harried and slowed and all sorts of debuffs. I can maybe get to a shrine or a corner and jibbers lol.
 

Dragnilar

Dragonborn of Bahamut
Had an idea that I really think could work based on given parameters.

Quick Kills
The basis of the idea is to encourage players to eliminate monsters as quickly as possible.

We a need/desire to defeat monsters quickly it should get players to kill as they encounter and discourage kite and kill tactics often associated with causes of DA. Kill on encounter is also a slower process which may even be enough to get us back to u58 speeds.

An Way to Implement
An approach that I think would really well if the tech to implement is a net positive in lag would be to give monsters 'charges' that are counted down when a monster attack/casts a spell. Players get more 'things' based on the number of remaining charges. The more things a group acquires the bigger/better the reward.

Benefits include but aren't limited to:
- encourages/enforces desired playstyles such as CC first, kill quickly, don't kite, etc.
- all carrot
- no changes to stealth
- best case scenario could even replace systems like DA.

Original link: https://forums.ddo.com/index.php?th...eview-1-xp-system-adjustments.1213/post-15064

Thanks for organizing.
I like this idea.

One thing that may be worth also considering is having some sort of "power up" mechanism related to the amount of chargaccrueded... but I could see that causing a snowball becoming avalanche" effect by the time players get to the bosses. Still, I'd love it if there were other "power ups" related to kills besides those lost souls we see in reaper.
 

seph1roth5

Well-known member
Well looks like they didn't look at/use anyone's suggestions and just kept the same change but fiddled with the numbers a bit. So, all of these suggestions STILL stand, but I'm also hoping they consider adjusting the XP needed to level.

Heard suggestions in discord to simply keep 1.9m no matter what life you're on, but I think even a 25% reduction in XP needed would be a big help.
 
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