Archmage is finally starting to get nice...

[LurkingVeteran]

I think just buffing Cyclonic Blast would help a lot actually, and/or maybe add more force options in EDs. Early game it matters less, the problem is filling an AoE rotation later in the game as a forced specialized caster. I am not sure if Orchid Blossom still has an unlisted scaling with spell power, but otherwise I don't think there is anything force there?

 

[Lazuli]

As I already said in the thread of lammania about balance pass, I find that the main problem that the wizard has right now is not his enhancement trees. Archmage is fine currently, I would really only change some of the core SLAs.

The wizard's main problem is equipment. Currently the gear disproportionately favors specialists with an immunity bypass, since equipping for multiple spellpowers and lores is impossible; There are no slots in the gear for that. A specialist only needs to raise a spellpower+lore to the stratosphere and have some decent support (such as healing) on some secondary spellpower. If you want to use your entire spellbook with a wizard, you can't do that.

For example, my wizard has high cold and force and negative (far from the values of a sorc or a druid, sadly), but when I slot acid well spell, my spellpower & crit are not competitive. Potency and spell lore have values that are too low compared to individual spellpower/lores. And do you know how many items there are for end game spell lore? Look at them, look at them. You're going to cry. It is a stat completely forgotten by the devs.

The same thing happens with spell DC, although my crying (and the other posters) to the devs has achieved more parity in spell mastery items than there is for spell damage. (Yes, I have been fighting for years for parity in the gear between specialists and generalists)

If wizards could be equipped for competitive use of their entire spellbook, having more spells than a sorc would mean something. But today it means little (something, but little), because the gearing will not favor the use of the entire spellbook, nor have all the spells received the pass, so a part of the spellbook remains subpar or useless.

If the devs don't want to change their way of designing equipment, put it on the archmage (at tier 5 or core 12-18) or on the class itself (an innate feat starting at lv 12-- don't steal a feat by forcing it to take it with selectable feats!) allowing potency and spell lore to use the same values as the highest individual spellpower could solve a lot of the problems for the wizard, who is a generalist who is not allowed to be a generalist.

Don't get so obsessed with enhancements. Equipment is more important, because a lot of our spellpower and crit comes from equipment. Enhancements have an influence, of course they do, but without the gear the build is going to leak. And I repeat: due to the current design of equipment the wizard is a generalist who is NOT allowed to be a generalist. It is not possible to use your entire spellbook if your equipment does not allow it.

 

[Lotoc]

I'd say more than gear the problem is force doesn't have proper ED support and spell selection is lacking, the only epic strikes worth using are either Orchid Blossom (which needs you to find melee/ranged power to scale it well and even with the double dip it's inferior to the other option) or dragon breath which needs secondary spellpowers.

 

[Lazuli]

I'd say more than gear the problem is force doesn't have proper ED support and spell selection is lacking

I don't think turning the wizard into a force specialist is the way to go. An archmage has always been defined in D&D by having enormous spell versatility. Allowing the wizard to use his ENTIRE spellbook is appropriate, both to differentiate him from the sorc (why do we need another specialist in the game?), and for lore reasons. And for fun, let's not forget fun. Many of us who play wizard want the fun of having many spells, if we wanted a specialist we would be playing a specialist (in fact, I have another specialist character, and I want them both to be different)

I'm not saying that force (and bane spells empowered by impulse) isn't a neglected element on the part of the devs. There are spells like horrid wilting, disintegrate, or force missiles that require a pass. We need some extra force spells. We need better ED and gear support. But that's independent of the fact that a wizard should be a generalist, and that not being able to use our entire spellbook is a clear design flaw.

Watch the archmage prestige class on pnp. It is not a force specialist. That class reinforces being a generalist, using many schools and elements. That's what an archmage is: a master of arcane magic, of all magic. Not a force specialist.

A force specialist might have her own enhancement tree. Archmage should reinforce the entire spellbook, without exaggerating the specializations. It can give a little edge to the force because it is an element that the sorc trees do not reinforce, but it is not the theme of the tree either. Turning the archmage into a force specialist could be like turning the pale master (aka, a quintessential necromancer) into a master of illusion.

 

[LurkingVeteran]

I don't disagree, but it's a much harder fix generalist casting, revamping a bunch of gear etc. The AM tree already has a specialization in Force, doubly so if you pick Evo. It just doesn't have any Force spell worth using that doesn't have a long CD (Arcane Tempest, ½ of Meteor). If they gave Wizards one low-CD force spells that scales to late game, and added a decent ED SLA based on Force, they would be in a good position. Just fixing Cyclonic Blast would go a long way I think.

 

[EinarMal]

I don't disagree, but it's a much harder fix generalist casting, revamping a bunch of gear etc. The AM tree already has a specialization in Force, doubly so if you pick Evo. It just doesn't have any Force spell worth using that doesn't have a long CD (Arcane Tempest, ½ of Meteor). If they gave Wizards one low-CD force spells that scales to late game, and added a decent ED SLA based on Force, they would be in a good position. Just fixing Cyclonic Blast would go a long way I think.

For a very brief time Shiradi worked and yea was a bit OP. But instead of just taming it a bit they completely nerfed it out of existence.

At least for the mantle they could bring back Shiradi, maybe up the chance to 15% to make it usable for spells.

Or they could add force as an option to Draconic. Fixes both the mantle and the strike problem.

 

[FVSHasBeenEvenMoreGutted]

You do remember fvs got gutted

i have been summoned to respond to my true calling

 

[Lazuli]

For a very brief time Shiradi worked and yea was a bit OP. But instead of just taming it a bit they completely nerfed it out of existence.

At least for the mantle they could bring back Shiradi, maybe up the chance to 15% to make it usable for spells.

Or they could add force as an option to Draconic. Fixes both the mantle and the strike problem.

Shiradi hasn't been an OP since the Turbine days, when they nerfed it to the ground. The nerf that the new shiradi ED suffered was unfounded, based on false premises. And currently it is useless for caster.

 

[EinarMal]

Shiradi hasn't been an OP since the Turbine days, when they nerfed it to the ground. The nerf that the new shiradi ED suffered was unfounded, based on false premises. And currently it is useless for caster.

Agree it is now completely useless. The calcs the dev used to justify the nerf was completely wrong.

 

[Lotoc]

Shiradi hasn't been an OP since the Turbine days, when they nerfed it to the ground. The nerf that the new shiradi ED suffered was unfounded, based on false premises. And currently it is useless for caster.

At the time of the EDs 2.0 shiradi nerfs it was effectively the only mantle casters were running.
Largely because the majority of other mantle damage procs were 1d6 per level rather than 1d6+6 but also initially Shiradi had like a 0.1 second ICD on procs, super front loaded damage (no per level scaling so was simply insanely strong at level 20 and didn't quite fall off)
Also something about the 30% proc rate (double the proc rate of exalted angel mantle for reference) was being applied to each individual proc you could get, so overall the chance to get a shiradi proc was much higher than the suggested 30%.

Nerfs were totally warranted just not as hard as they were.

 

[Lazuli]

At the time of the EDs 2.0 shiradi nerfs it was effectively the only mantle casters were running.
Largely because the majority of other mantle damage procs were 1d6 per level rather than 1d6+6 but also initially Shiradi had like a 0.1 second ICD on procs, super front loaded damage (no per level scaling so was simply insanely strong at level 20 and didn't quite fall off)
Also something about the 30% proc rate (double the proc rate of exalted angel mantle for reference) was being applied to each individual proc you could get, so overall the chance to get a shiradi proc was much higher than the suggested 30%.

Nerfs were totally warranted just not as hard as they were.

No, there were other mantles that were even better. In fact, when they nerfed shiradi, we soon discovered that we had been losing a lot of dps (I ended up being grateful for the nerf, because my current build is much better than with the unnerfed shiradi). What the shiradi had was that it was the only ED that was not oriented to a single element. It was good for non-specialists. But hey in DDO the specialists rule, and the truth is that my wizard gained a lot of dps by changing the shiradi mantle.

That's so that the devs are proud of their mathematics, heh.

 

[DBZ]

Shiradi was the one ED new players could use and still be effective without any gear or past lives while they could work on getting those done

 

[Lazuli]

Shiradi was the one ED new players could use and still be effective without any gear or past lives while they could work on getting those done

Yes, but it hasn't been OP in this incarnation of the EDs. In the old days of the early EDs, when they released Gianthold, DC casting was dead because DCs were so high that even the best players couldn't reliably reach them. At that time shiradi was truly OP and all the casyers were either shiradi or left a lot to be desired. Then devs put a series of consecutive nerfs to the shirari and left it ok but not op, but DC casters were still not viable. Devs continued with the nerfs of the shiradi and left it useless, and then they had no choice but to solve the problem of the DC casters. This didn't happen until they added epic necro, since they solved it with a gross stat increase in the gear.

But the shiradi of the new EDs was never OP. Draconic has always been better. Later they also improved primal avatar. Fatesinger is good for specific classes too. The nerf was not necessary. It was an ED for casters without immunity bypass and yes, it helped new players too, but he wasn't strong enough to make a magic missile spammer op. I say it honestly, if devs return it to its original state, I would not return to this ED with my wizard. The shiradi only gave use to the mantle, and it required many points to max it. So by taking on the mantle of draconic I had a lot of points left to invest in other things. Overall my build is noticeably stronger now. Shiradi has gone the dodo route as far as I'm concerned (in relation to casters; it's good for ranged).

 

[Lazuli]

I don't disagree, but it's a much harder fix generalist casting, revamping a bunch of gear etc. The AM tree already has a specialization in Force, doubly so if you pick Evo. It just doesn't have any Force spell worth using that doesn't have a long CD (Arcane Tempest, ½ of Meteor). If they gave Wizards one low-CD force spells that scales to late game, and added a decent ED SLA based on Force, they would be in a good position. Just fixing Cyclonic Blast would go a long way I think.

Although I frankly hate the current loot design, if they don't want to change it, there are other solutions, such as increasing the effectiveness of potency and spell lore items for wizards, and in this sense Archmage is the most thematically appropriate place to do it, since the lore of prestige has always been the magic master who uses a wide variety of magic, compared to specialized concepts such as the master necromancer, diviner, illusionist, enchanter, etc.

Tieflings have things like: Infernal Sovereign (Acid): You use your Fire Spell Power in place of your Acid Spell Power if it is higher, and vice versa. Clerics also have it in some domains. It can't be that difficult to do something similar for wizards, so that they can use their entire spellbook. It could also be something like a wizard's potency and spell lore equals 80-90% of the value of a particular spellpower-lore instead of 50% (now the values are standardized, so given the level of the Potency item we know what the value of an individual Spellpower item of that same level would be). Or 100%, after all a specialist caster needs very few spellpowers, and the wizard still has to equip DC from many more schools than a specialist, and the spellpower epic feats and EDs grossly favor specialists. It seems very easy to code an enhancement like this. But something has to be done.

Honestly, expecting wizards to be on par with a spellcaster with immunity bypass without giving them the tools to be able to use their entire spellbook is a utopia. Having access to more spells than a sorc should mean something.

 

[Sammy]

The wizard's main problem is equipment. Currently the gear disproportionately favors specialists with an immunity bypass, since equipping for multiple spellpowers and lores is impossible; There are no slots in the gear for that. A specialist only needs to raise a spellpower+lore to the stratosphere and have some decent support (such as healing) on some secondary spellpower. If you want to use your entire spellbook with a wizard, you can't do that.

I agree. When they removed potency and spell lore as a generic item drop, it killed wizard for me way back when. They eventually introduced thaumaturgy on quarterstaffs which supported multiple spellpowers which was pretty nice for wizards. Then, they suddenly took it out of new loot. All the quarterstaffs from all these expansion packs only support two spellpowers and are clearly made for savant sorcerers. Elementalist wizards get nothing.

The Archmage tree may still need some updating, but giving us some proper gear would be huge. As it is now, there is not appropriate gear in the game for this class. Potency and spell lore were general spellcasting item enhancements that covered all spell damage types at a lower value than items with individual spell damage enhancements.

Create new quarterstaffs with potency, spell lore, and add stacking spell focus. The spellpower and crit values received from potency and spell lore are fine at a considerably lower amount than the values given by items that focus on specific damage types, even at 50% lower. Additional enhancements can also be present to add some amount of variety and choice. It may be possible now to use several items to cover everything you need, but you use up quite a few equipment slots trying to do this, which leaves survivability something to be desired.

The fundamental playstyle of an Elementalist/Evocation Archmage is to have a wide array of damage types on hand and be aware of what your enemies are weak to. Your base damage may not be as high as a savant's, but you can always take advantage of any enemy that receives double damage whether it's fire, cold, acid, or electric. You're consistently good in all environments instead of exceptional in many.

Archmages should also have a handful of other practical spells, like CC, buffs, and utility spells. This was somewhat explored with the current tree with "Secondary School Mastery", but I'm not sure a single enhancement is enough. Small bumps to all spell DCs would be more appropriate for an Archmage.

The recent changes are a step in the right direction and I think a continued effort as well as gear that supports the Elementalist playstyle can make wizards the awesome arcane casting class they should be while still keeping them differentiated from sorcerers.

 

[Lazuli]

Create new quarterstaffs with potency, spell lore, and add stacking spell focus. The spellpower and crit values received from potency and spell lore are fine at a considerably lower amount than the values given by items that focus on specific damage types, even at 50% lower.

No, they are not "fine" at all. At 50% you are at an overwhelming numerical disadvantage compared to a specialist. You are doing half the damage of a specialist. Even less, because in this game it is the synergies that really determine the power, and the total value ends up being less than 50%.

The equipment needs to give an equal, if not at least approximate, value on a variety of spellpowers for a wizard. If the devs want the greatest number of spells to be the wizard's advantage over specialists with bypass, they have to make those spells viable, not limit the wizard to one or two elements as if it were a specialist, or we always end up running into the problem of immunities and exaggerated resistances.

Specialists already have many other advantages, not the least of which are that EDs and feats are all designed for specialists, or that they also need DC for fewer schools. Not to mention that the specialists' enhancements already give them more dps than the wizard (but I agree with this).

Currently there are Potency and Insightful items in the named gear, with Potency being quite represented. Spell lore is a practically forgotten stat. For wizard there are three items with spell lore 12%: the eclipse itself staff which is ok but closes you the opportunity to use dino weapons, the Epic Noxious Embers necklace which is level 26 and leaves a lot to be desired as an end game item and Legendary Ornamented Dagger which It is a very bad weapon. So I always end up using Legendary spinneret, which only gives 11% and is pathetic when we are talking about a specialist currently slotting 23% lore.

The values of Potency and spell lore items are NOT adequate at all if we want a generalist to be able to do decent damage. They are ok for a specialist who fills in a secondary element, but if we are going to always relegate the wizard to that role, forget them, and make them a sorc, alc or druid with bypass.

The fundamental playstyle of an Elementalist/Evocation Archmage is to have a wide array of damage types on hand and be aware of what your enemies are weak to. Your base damage may not be as high as a savant's, but you can always take advantage of any enemy that receives double damage whether it's fire, cold, acid, or electric. You're consistently good in all environments instead of exceptional in many.

It's no use having a "wide array" of spells if you end up doing pathetic damage with them. The savant will always do more damage than the wizard, but one thing is to do more damage and another thing is to do waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more damage. We are talking about generalist items doing %50 less damage. By God, we are not talking about a trifle. We're talking about HALF the damage.

The solution is either to change the design of the gear and allow more spellpowers/lores to be slotted than currently possible, or to do something with the potency/spell lore items, or to add a tiefling-style enhancement that I mentioned before. Potency and spell lore currently DO NOT help the wizard.

Vulnerabilities are very rare. There are many more resistances and immunities (which are everywhere, in all the quests, and more in epics), than enemies with vulnerabilities, which are only in some quests, and are a minimal fraction of the enemies in those quests.

If the devs designed the quests to have an equal number of enemies with vulnerabilities as well as resistances and immunities, you would have a case. But it is not like that. A vulnerability is rare like a phoenix xD.

 

[Lazuli]

Archmages should also have a handful of other practical spells, like CC, buffs, and utility spells. This was somewhat explored with the current tree with "Secondary School Mastery", but I'm not sure a single enhancement is enough. Small bumps to all spell DCs would be more appropriate for an Archmage.

Here I have to say that I don't see that specialists lack CC, buffs, and utility at all. A sorc has exactly the same CC spells as a wizard, because there are very few that are good, and also some such as color spray or glacial wrath have to be taken outside the class, so the advantage of have more spells means nothing.

Buffs? What buffs has the wizard that the sorc not? I have never made a sorc that does not have access to GH (and also now there is an augment for it xd), prot from elements, displacement (which is also useless in high reaper). DDO does not abound in useful buffs. Buff spells have been displaced by gear, by a wide margin. And utility? Do you mean that you have ever done a sorc without DD and without jump? No, there is no advantage for the wizard in this either. Since the sorc has bypass only needs a few spells of one element, the rest can be used on the very few utility and buff spells available.

And all this without forgetting that the sorc has more spell points and faster casting, which makes it, honestly, even better than the wizard with instantkills if that's how you want to build it.

No, it is not too much to ask that the spellbook can be used at full capacity with a competitive capacity. Preventing slotting a variety of spellpowers because of the current equipment design, or putting generalist items at an incredibly subpar value of 50% is incredibly unfair.

This, this is where the wizard fails. Forget about the Archmage, it's fine now. If the gear's paradigm does not change, forget about a hypothetical evoker wizard.

The bypass wasn't bad originally, it's not a bad idea for sorc. But not providing the means for a generalist casting to be viable is indeed a fault of the devs.

 

[Aelonwy]

I'd really enjoy an enhancement in Archmage that allows dual-wielding Staff + Orb like iconic casters. But I realize it would require unique animations and that, that is a tremendous hurdle.

 

[DBZ]

Not asking for op just shiradi back for alts and new player casters expecting new players to have a minimum of 120-140 dcs is insane

 

[Sammy]

In my half-asleep stupor, I had forgotten that potency items do in fact exist. The "50%" part was just me throwing a number off the top of my head. However, the amount of spellpower you receive from items does not equal the amount you output when you can get spellpower from enhancements. 50% spellpower from one item does not mean 50% end damage. If the number needs to be higher, the devs have the information to figure out exact values. I think the Archmage tree also needs more spellpower.

I would still like to see potency and spell lore on quarterstaffs. I do not think the numbers generalists achieve need to be identical to specialized numbers, as then playing a savant would be pointless. However, yes, whatever the actual numbers end up being, the damage needs to be at least close to what specialists do.

I suppose when I mentioned vulnerabilities, I was also thinking about using elements that whatever enemies are not resistant to. I think it's a fun playstyle to choose appropriate elements based on the enemies being fought. Do sorcerers not have this problem? I have not played a sorcerer in a long time. I've only seen people mention immunity stripping, so I don't actually know how this works. If sorcerers can bypass immunities/resistances in most or all situations (not just occasionally), then I see where you're coming from in terms of damage needing to reach the same values. The concept of immunity stripping always seemed a bit silly to me, but I won't argue against if it's something that people like.