Melfs Acid arrow is overtuned (Spawn of Whisperdoom)

[The Narc]

Why do "new players" always get trotted out in these discussions about reaper difficulty?

Lol because my part of the discussion has nothing to with reaper, just because i can solo with non twink gear on reaper easily even with the increased acid damage does not mean that a new player will be able to complete it on elite or even hard woth the increased damage, rabidfox’s comment about it being out of line damage wise i believe is in regard to the shock value it will produce on said new player.

Anyway these “so called” accidentally/unintentional damage increases such as this and the one in belly and the beast no doubt result iin death/time sink/resource sink, all of which analytically result in profit for SSG. Maybe that is their goal, but i would hazard to guess that these type of surprises cause new players to quit playing the game which is very unhealthy for the game.

 

[Guntango]

New players always get trotted out in these wonderful discussions about things being overtuned in reaper, the difficulty setting where the DM is trying to kill your character. Do you expect new players to play the same difficulty as a push raider that is an encyclopedia of DDO knowledge?

The decent reason which was already given, is simple really. Someone of this calibur should be ready for what's in the quest. I was, and I'm not push raiding R10s. I listed specifically what was used. Not difficult to obtain for anyone of this level of expertise.

Did a few people forget to equip the right gear and had an oopsie-daisy, or are we asking for it to be nerfed back down to 2011 values because this spike damage in one quest requires using slightly more time consuming tactics like LoS and bursting down single mobs, rather than full on round'em up and kill zoning 2-3 rooms at a time? People can also choose to avoid this quest if having to be presise with timing causes their XP/min to dip too far, in a game where nuking everything from orbit at run speed is normalized.

If you think that resists or absorbs are the problem, it says to me that you have a new players simplistic perspective. That’s a rudimentary concept. What we’re trying to talk about here is excessive damage on an overtuned spell. Hope you can grasp that, but even if you can’t, melf’s is overtuned in this quest.

 

[Lazuli]

A bunch of permadeathers made it through with the gear they found from 1-12, but the quest is an order of magnitude harder than it used to be?

I think the people who havent wiped in a heroic quest in 12 years got a wake up call, and that which cannot be defeated in game on attempt #1 shall be defeated on the forums.

It's an overlook to the changes to acid spells, and the fact that, unlike in pnp 3.5, characters and npcs have very different stats. The spells for the characters had to be changed because since the DDO npcs have so much HPs, the original D&D spells were very weak, but if the enhanced version is used by the DDO npcs they melt the characters because those spells have not been created for the lower HPs of the characters.

NPCs and characters in DDO must use different versions of the spells, due to the disparity in hps between them. Sometimes the devs forget to adjust a new version of the spells created with characters in mind to the npc.

I have done this quest without dying, but I have always been a defender of quests that must maintain a stable level of difficulty in each difficulty tier, unless they are named as extreme challenges (and in that case they must have a reward appropriate to that challenge).

 

[Guntango]

Permadeathers are far more hardcore and equipped for avoiding death at all costs than newbies, arguably even R10 Raid Pushers who focus end game.

If you suggest that we take all advice from permadeathers, that’s fine with me, but probably not fine for the other 96.7% of the population.

 

[Chai]

Permadeathers are far more hardcore and equipped for avoiding death at all costs than newbies, arguably even R10 Raid Pushers who focus end game.

If you suggest that we take all advice from permadeathers, that’s fine with me, but probably not fine for the other 96.7% of the population.

It has more to do with playstyle, and the playstyle which completes that quest successfully in its current condition unsubscribes from the xp/min playstyle of minimizing time by brute forcing the quest. Anyone, literally 100% of the players, are capable of doing whats needed. Just be prepared for tactical completion time > double the brute force completion time.

This is a veteran thing, not a newbie thing. There are zero/near zero actual newblies playing this quest on reaper unless they are getting dragged through by veterans.

 

[Chai]

That was a lvl 23 character with acid absorbtion and higher resists too; I was just taking a screenshot for a quick example of what I saw the other day, not for a full recreation of those 20+ runs and the overall results I saw on them. Feel free to take your own screenshots of your results; and like I've said before on this thread, the champs may be effecting it, but only the devs can fully test that right now (or I can when the event is over) but the relative damage from the same mob with acid damage vs any other damage they're doing is vastly different.

15 resist + 15 absorb. Keep in mind a level 13 character can get 40 resist and 22 absorb.


image host

 

[Ying]

Three pages of arguing with multiple experienced players that Melf's isn't overtuned in a quest. The problem isn't them.

 

[DBZ]

The problem was and still is Update 59 the one that keeps on giving its not just one quest either and also affects players side

but since the devs probably still don't have a clue what they broke good luck on that fix

 

[Guntango]

It has more to do with playstyle, and the playstyle which completes that quest successfully in its current condition unsubscribes from the xp/min playstyle of minimizing time by brute forcing the quest. Anyone, literally 100% of the players, are capable of doing whats needed. Just be prepared for tactical completion time > double the brute force completion time.

This is a veteran thing, not a newbie thing. There are zero/near zero actual newblies playing this quest on reaper unless they are getting dragged through by veterans.

Ah, so, strictly speaking, all play styles under equal questing conditions would agree that melf’s is overturned in this quest. I agree.

 

[Chai]

Three pages of arguing with multiple experienced players that Melf's isn't overtuned in a quest. The problem isn't them.

If you want to go all argumentum ad populum, then also count all the people who aren't complaining at all about it.

What will be hilarious, and we have already had a few waves of this, is when the next wave of "R10 is too easy" happens, what the venn overlap looks like between those who favor adjusting downward, and those who now want moar challenge, which you know will get responded to the same way it was responded to in the past - including but not limited to increases in spike damage.

 

[DBZ]

Psionic thralls sure seems like a test run for r11 almost like they had a plan for them almost

Something that does challenge over powered melees and ranged and promotes group play

 

[Spittfyre]

Acid Damage is either overtuned, tics too quickly, or both. Anywhere there is a pit of acid, damage will roll. Belly of the Beast is a perfect example, and one I complained about myself a while ago. In the Evil We Know, heroic elite, I died when I fell into the acid pit (missed my jump, it was silly but it happened) because the damage was rolling for 80+ pts of damage, and that was with a 79 resistance and protection from acid. In comparison, I can stand in a pit of lava for no damage.

 

[rabidfox]

All I'm seeing is damage is variable (RNG in a game using dice for damage, go figure). Same way one can get randomly 1-shotted by splinterbolt in heroic Saltmarsh (another IMO outlier for damage- unless they patched that & I missed it). Hopefully a dev can look at the acid damage and deal with the high curve where it claps in silly ways.

 

[Drunken.dx]

If you want to go all argumentum ad populum, then also count all the people who aren't complaining at all about it.

Yeah, I count those in "went to play some other game" column.
most players don't read update notes and are not aware some difficulty changes were unintentional, but think they were WAI, some will enjoy it, some will endure or avoid that content, some will quit.

 

[The Narc]

All I'm seeing is damage is variable (RNG in a game uses dice for damage, go figure). Same way one can get randomly 1-shotted by splinterbolt in heroic Saltmarsh (another IMO outlier for damage- unless they patched that I missed it). Hopefully a dev can look at the acid damage and deal with the high curve where it claps in silly ways.

Actually i think they have toned that spell down in saltmarsh, much more doable in a permadeath guild that runs the saga on elite at level 3 and reaper 3 at level 6, been thru both solo at those level ranges, lol with no hirelings allowed in our permadeath guild.

But i do think that acid wit also has an issue with melfs although it is not spammed anywhere near as rapidly as in whisperdoom.

 

[Chai]

Yeah, I count those in "went to play some other game" column.
most players don't read update notes and are not aware some difficulty changes were unintentional, but think they were WAI, some will enjoy it, some will endure or avoid that content, some will quit.

Theres plenty of reasons people take breaks from DDO. There has been no mass exodus due to acid damage in 2-5 quests.

Argumentum ad populum is listed as a fallacy, and for a very good reason. But if you guys insist on arguing your case this way, then you must include everyone who plays the game who does not complain about this issue.

 

[rabidfox]

Argumentum ad populum is listed as a fallacy, and for a very good reason. But if you guys insist on arguing your case this way, then you must include everyone who plays the game who does not complain about this issue.

I've simply stated I noticed excessive damage and the devs should look at the damage in the quest itself and determine if the values are WAI and not resulting in outliers (either from RNG dice rolls or champs or whatever) beyond the scope of reason. This thread is going into weird tangnets now. I hadn't touched this quest since last HC (so I couldn't comment about it until now), I have no clue what others do or don't do with their time, my original statement on "took huge dots, they seemed overtuned for a lvl 11 quest" stands.

 

[Col Kurtz]

running Heroic quest in reaper... what did you get ? like 200 RXP? lmao

 

[Chai]

I've simply stated I noticed excessive damage and the devs should look at the damage in the quest itself and determine if the values are WAI and not resulting in outliers (either from RNG dice rolls or champs or whatever) beyond the scope of reason. This thread is going into weird tangnets now. I hadn't touched this quest since last HC (so I couldn't comment about it until now), I have no clue what others do or don't do with their time, my original statement on "took huge dots, they seemed overtuned for a lvl 11 quest" stands.

Devs have stated in the past that part of reaper "challenge" is spike damage (whether we like it or not). I also had all mitigation components, and not even at max level for what can be had at lv 13, on in my screenshot and those levels are fine - aka well within normal parameters for that quest.

Those who are not willing to wear damage mitigation items for known damage sources in higher difficulty settings, and not play in a way that also mitigates said damage (the expectation is run in and brute force kill) should not be placated on the forums just to keep the xp/min playstyle alive. "New players" should not be a reason to adjust in reaper. Reaper should be a goal for them, but not on day 3.

These are not weird tangents as claimed, and are all factually stated.

 

[Tonquin]

While doing Spawn of Whisperdoom for the event, myself and others were getting melted by Melfs Acid arrow. At least at for that level bracket (with bringing in 15s into a base 11 quest) the ticks were ripping thru people. The recent acid changes overtuned it by quite a bit.

It looks like in Update 58 the spell Melf's Acid Arrow was changed from its original formula (2d4 + 1 per 2 caster levels per tic) to an updated one (1d6 every 2 caster levels). For the monsters in question, such as Whisperdoom's Daughter at a base CR17 on elite/reaper, this means that the damage went from (2d4 + ( 1 * .5 * 17 ) ) = ((2 * 2.5 ) + (8.5)) = 13.5 average damage per tic to (1d6 * .5 * 17) = (3.5 * 8.5) = 29.75 average damage per tic, or 220% stronger.

I've adjusted the spell such that monsters will now cast Melf's with its old scaling. I've also fixed a bug with the player-side scaling - the intended value was meant to be 1d6 per caster level, not 1d6 per 2 caster levels. These fixes will be in an upcoming patch. Thank you!