Tumbling was nerfed too hard

Tumble

  • is just fine as it is (and yes I hate my fellow players and myself)

    Votes: 24 24.0%

  • should have double the charges and half the refill time

    Votes: 24 24.0%

  • should have 10 charges and 4 seconds refill time

    Votes: 6 6.0%

  • should have 20 charges and 2 seconds refill time

    Votes: 17 17.0%

  • other

    Votes: 29 29.0%
  • Total voters
    100
  • Poll closed .
L

Lori

Active member
You introduce a fun skill.
Granted, it couldn't remain in the state it was.

But the nerf bat hat too hard on this one.

It's semi bugged, most of the time you can barely get 1 tumble off and the 2nd just evaporates.
8 seconds refill timer is not enough.

You can't even catch up to some group member who's leading in front.

Today was the 1st day after about a month break where I played the game.
When I left tumble was good and well.

Now it's .. useless to counter benefitial. Because you press and then you get stuck because "out of charges".

It should have 20 charges and the charges should regenerate every 2 seconds.
 
droid327

droid327

Well-known member
Should go back to unlimited use because having the extra run speed may have been unintended, but it was a huge positive for gameplay

I dont really care about the Dodge mechanic, that can be charge limited while in combat or something. I dont accept that Tumble was "too fast", I never got a good rationale.
 
L

l_remmie

Well-known member
Charges and recharge time should be based on invested skill points.
2 charges 10secs is fine if you only took 1 skillpoint.

A rogue with 23 points in it should have at least 5 charges with 5 seconds recharge time. Regardless of feats and enhancements.
 
P

pame12

Well-known member
I doubt they're gonna feel good about reverting it or even removing the charge mechanic, they worked too hard for that.
I would like to see several more options to increase charges at least, like with higher DEX and Tumble skill gives more charges, some enhancements for dex based trees would add more, some inherent racial increases, and a few more put on feats.
 
Y

Yutang75

Member
Honestly the current version isn't too bad, and that's coming from someone that was constantly rolling around.

I'm still adapting to the new mechanic but the short buff feels like it helps to rapidly but safely disengage from melee or to pass through traps on lower save characters.

My grips are the stutter you do when trying to tumble without a charge, and not knowing when charges return as the green pips only show when blocking.

If the low recharge rate and cap are to stay, perhaps the animation speed and distance travelled when tumbling could be increased to more quickly close/create distance in a design constrained way. Like a mini spring attack except without damage and easy to do straight backwards.

Alternative said:
revert changes to before experimental tumble was introduced
Click to expand...
This take I don't understand. Before experimental tumble the only time I used the skill was to move whilst blocking; which, for me, was exceedingly rare. (I don't follow the forums/discord closely if you think the rationale of this opinion is obvious)
 
C

CBDunk

Well-known member
pame12 said:
I doubt they're gonna feel good about reverting it or even removing the charge mechanic, they worked too hard for that.
I would like to see several more options to increase charges at least, like with higher DEX and Tumble skill gives more charges, some enhancements for dex based trees would add more, some inherent racial increases, and a few more put on feats.
Click to expand...

I'd just like to know what their 'vision' for tumbling is.

Based on this thing called Dungeons and Dragons, I'd always thought it was an ability for getting away from enemies w/o being stopped or attacked. DDO had something like that long ago when there were multiple ways to 'tumble through' enemies, but it was never part of the base skill and most of the options allowing it have been removed.

Instead, from pre-release until just a few months ago, the only (and seemingly intended) real point of the tumble skill in DDO was to allow characters to move faster. YEARS ago there were people complaining about how ridiculous it looked for characters to constantly be rolling around... and others yelling that they needed it to move at a reasonable pace. Then, over time, the game introduced more and more ways for characters to move faster and fewer people bothered getting a high tumble score to increase movement... until the new experimental version came out. This seemed purposefully designed to restore tumbling as a movement speed boost... and immediately resurrected the arguments over appearance vs speed.

So now they've reversed course and nerfed 'tumble for speed' to the point where most people won't bother again... and replaced it with a completely new concept of tumble making it harder to be hit / easier to make reflex saves for a second. That's not really consistent with D&D OR DDO history, but it's... something.

The problem with the 'harder to hit' portion is that mobs can still block you... so you are safer for a second, but if boxed in by a group you still can't use tumbling to get away and that second is seldom going to make a difference. Thus, it really only helps when you are facing one or two mobs that could kill you in under a second... which is actually a thing on high reaper. Maybe people will be able to develop this new version of tumbling to deal with that... and we'll start seeing 'glass cannon' casters tumbling away whenever they draw aggro.

The reflex save boost is great for letting characters tumble through traps safely... but this seems to be a solution in search of a problem given how many characters already just run through traps w/o worry and/or players who know how to jump over / avoid nearly every trap in the game. In any case, it further reduces the need for a character capable of actually disarming the traps.

I'd really prefer something like; Total Tumble Score - Instance Level = chance to 'tumble through' enemies. That'd be preferable to any version of the skill which has appeared in DDO. Failing that I'd just like to know what the developers think it is supposed to be used for.
 
W

woq

Well-known member
It does not feel like they worked that hard on it, whatever the case is in reality. Feels more like a rushed result of wanting the experimental system gone. The charge system could be nice potentially but in practice feels lackluster currently.

I actually like the dodge and reflex and used it to my advantage a couple times - it would be a lie for me to say it is useless or worse than that, timely tumbles have helped me save a lot of hp and enabled me maneuver while in melee against pretty scary multi-champion+reaper packs while managing cooldowns. But the problems are glaring and do make it feel bad to use in practice even with a melee character with tumble skill and mobility.

- Tumble and get stuck in block animation trying to tumble again even though you have charges? Check. Not sure what causes this but it is irritating as heck. Maybe it stops to check if you have charges? Don't know, it sucks.
- Unable to see if you do or don't have charges while being mobile? Check.
- Low repetition potential despite jumping around like jack rabbit? Check.

For claritys sake, I have only played characters with mobility so 3 charges and on characters that put at least half-point investment to the skill (on every levelup). I did not much care about the movement speed experimental tumble served in long corridors and whatnot, but this current tumble is executed poorly on a UI / player experience level and it seems to perform poorly even on dodgy characters.

Potential things to help the system along:

1) CD of tumble when out of combat reduced to 1.5 seconds (hardcap, not reduceable further to prevent the above-mount tumbling speeds).

2) Recharge rate of tumble charges increased by 1% per skill point in tumble, up to a maximum of X (50%?).

3) Make the system opt-in and have the pre-experimental tumble and this new tumble both exist in the game simultaneously. Player has the option to study tumble to give it the dodge/reflex perks and recharge timer, else they'll have a pre-experimental tumble. This would make the system opt-in and also help poor bards with singing issues in bigger groups. Perhaps it should even be implemented by a feat. If it is so op it needs to have a whopping 8 sec recharge, a better version of it will be good enough to be an upgrade from the old system it should be worth investing in, right? ... right?

4) For crying out loud do not tie the system to blocking and only seeing the charges while tumbling, and allow us to tweak where and when we want to see the damn things. Tanks are annoyed by the stupid pips and actually mobile people can't see the information they need when they need it. I feel like I can't repeat this enough and am still a little bit flabbergasted that they put the now-live system after the feedback on it from lamannia - the only good reasoning I can see for it is that they ran out of time.

I guess that's enough posting in tumble threads though. If changes will happen it'll likely take a while - I'm sure they want us to play with the current system a bit longer before going back to the drawing board.
 
L

LurkingVeteran

Well-known member
Yutang75 said:
...

My grips are the stutter you do when trying to tumble without a charge, and not knowing when charges return as the green pips only show when blocking.

If the low recharge rate and cap are to stay, perhaps the animation speed and distance travelled when tumbling could be increased to more quickly close/create distance in a design constrained way. Like a mini spring attack except without damage and easy to do straight backwards.

...
Click to expand...

Good point. The risk of an unintentional stutter has a considerable cost for this kind of ability.
 
Br4d

Br4d

Well-known member
I'm going to stick to my original proposal. Make a Hedgehog Monk archetype and allow it to use the experimental tumble mechanism. Everybody else gets what we have right now.
 
Aelonwy

Aelonwy

Well-known member
Yutang75 said:
This take I don't understand. Before experimental tumble the only time I used the skill was to move whilst blocking; which, for me, was exceedingly rare. (I don't follow the forums/discord closely if you think the rationale of this opinion is obvious)
Click to expand...
I would completely revert the changes to before Experimental Tumble as well... and for me the position comes from playing a pure Thief Acrobat for years where using Tumble in combat was semi constant but Tumble to run down a hallway faster was never a thing. There just aren't enough charges even as a TA now to use the skill as a TA is meant to in combat and sometimes there is some weird little delay hiccup on my end that means whatever 1 second buff new tumble gets is offset by a momentary pause in what I'm trying to do. Getting stuck in blocking I'm used to, that's been going on for years but in the new tumble/charge system its causing additional issues. It seems okay for non TAs to get through traps though if you can time it right.

Idk. For the time being my TA is yet another character I've set aside because it feels less fun to play after U66.
 
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