The real problem with random loot.

[kmoustakas]

Edit: I hope it's clear to everyone I'm not complaining but pointing out what I feel is a flaw in concept. If you look at it in a vaccuum random loot is technically the strongest it has ever been since the inception of DDO. It's also the time it has been least used - outside of hardcore.

As someone who has lived through the ghostbane of ghostbane era of loot and actually started playing in the era of a +5 weapon with no other abilities at minimum level 9 being bonkers and +2 to hit crafted on a trinket at minimum level 10 (or something) was insanely powerful, random loot looks brilliant. It's awesome! The problem is unless you're on hardcore it's... useless.

And that's by design.

The second you hit level 5, everything is overshadowed by the feywild level of power. Items have 4 abilities many of them special like blurry, ghostly, relentless fury, an augment slot and are part of a set. Random items have one prefix, one suffix, maybe a slot or two and maybe a special prefix or suffix that gives two abilities instead of one. So technically, you could get the loot gods to give you a special prefix and a special suffix and two augment slots and an 'extra' after level 10 but it would most likely be an irrelevant combination or actually useless like doubleshot on handwraps. Exceptions do occur of course but are so few and far between they might as well be mythical.

The reason random loot is good in (other) games is because random loot HAS TO BE BETTER than anything named or crafted. Otherwise, it's automatically vendor trash. Named items are designed (mostly) to be good, have coherent abilities, (almost) always have augment slots and are often part of a sets. Not only that, you can actually FARM for a specific item. Run the quest a hundred times and you'll get it. Maybe even fewer times than a hundred. You can't farm for a specific random loot. Random loot cannot be viewed in isolation to named loot or crafted gear.

Now, does this actually matter? Meh, no, not really. I was also there during wounding of puncturing and during riptide of lacerating.

 

[Redtalktree]

As someone who has lived through the ghostbane of ghostbane era of loot and actually started playing in the era of a +5 weapon with no other abilities at minimum level 9 being bonkers and +2 to hit crafted on a trinket at minimum level 10 (or something) was insanely powerful, random loot looks brilliant. It's awesome! The problem is unless you're on hardcore it's... useless.

And that's by design.

The second you hit level 5, everything is overshadowed by the feywild level of power. Items have 4 abilities many of them special like blurry, ghostly, relentless fury, an augment slot and are part of a set. Random items have one prefix, one suffix, maybe a slot or two and maybe a special prefix or suffix that gives two abilities instead of one. So technically, you could get the loot gods to give you a special prefix and a special suffix and two augment slots and an 'extra' after level 10 but it would most likely be an irrelevant combination or actually useless like doubleshot on handwraps. Exceptions do occur of course but are so few and far between they might as well be mythical.

The reason random loot is good in (other) games is because random loot HAS TO BE BETTER than anything named or crafted. Otherwise, it's automatically vendor trash. Named items are designed (mostly) to be good, have coherent abilities, (almost) always have augment slots and are often part of a sets. Not only that, you can actually FARM for a specific item. Run the quest a hundred times and you'll get it. Maybe even fewer times than a hundred. You can't farm for a specific random loot. Random loot cannot be viewed in isolation to named loot or crafted gear.

Now, does this actually matter? Meh, no, not really. I was also there during wounding of puncturing and during riptide of lacerating.

Power creep has been and done (done great harm), random loot is meh as it is stands and I still got my rapier of puncturing and my g.Axe of laceration with icy burst when risia games was still around, low level items where it needed the most (still miss them days gone by) and those weapons shows how much power creep has been done since then (saltmarsh/feywild) and the game is far easier now then when it was now it all caters for The TR crowd who has the items already and just blast thru 1-20 in 1 or 2 days.

 

[Zvdegor]

As someone who has lived through the ghostbane of ghostbane era of loot and actually started playing in the era of a +5 weapon with no other abilities at minimum level 9 being bonkers and +2 to hit crafted on a trinket at minimum level 10 (or something) was insanely powerful, random loot looks brilliant. It's awesome! The problem is unless you're on hardcore it's... useless.

And that's by design.

The second you hit level 5, everything is overshadowed by the feywild level of power. Items have 4 abilities many of them special like blurry, ghostly, relentless fury, an augment slot and are part of a set. Random items have one prefix, one suffix, maybe a slot or two and maybe a special prefix or suffix that gives two abilities instead of one. So technically, you could get the loot gods to give you a special prefix and a special suffix and two augment slots and an 'extra' after level 10 but it would most likely be an irrelevant combination or actually useless like doubleshot on handwraps. Exceptions do occur of course but are so few and far between they might as well be mythical.

The reason random loot is good in (other) games is because random loot HAS TO BE BETTER than anything named or crafted. Otherwise, it's automatically vendor trash. Named items are designed (mostly) to be good, have coherent abilities, (almost) always have augment slots and are often part of a sets. Not only that, you can actually FARM for a specific item. Run the quest a hundred times and you'll get it. Maybe even fewer times than a hundred. You can't farm for a specific random loot. Random loot cannot be viewed in isolation to named loot or crafted gear.

Now, does this actually matter? Meh, no, not really. I was also there during wounding of puncturing and during riptide of lacerating.

Rng loot was best when High Road was released (u16 maybe???) But Turbine nerfed rng loot into the ground because according to them it was too powerful. The 2 pic below are proof rng loot was really good. Those khopeshes are still useful for leveling. Those were rare drops, not common ones. I wish rng loot would be the same again!!!

 

[Lazuli]

Well, I don't think random loot should be better than named loot. I don't see any sense in that.

The only problem I see with random loot is that it is too random and getting a combination of useful enchantments is quite complicated. But it does its job until you get named. In hardcore I generally level up with random loot all the way up to epics where I farm borderlands gear, and that's fine.

Cannith crafting is still useful in leveling because it continues to fill the gaps you are missing. The only drawback I find is the lack of flexible shards. Sometimes the enchantment you are missing cannot be crafted in the slot you are missing. That sucks. If they put something similar to flexible shards it would be perfect.

 

[saekee]

I think random loot should be better on rare pulls. This is because it is unlikely you will ever get the combo that woukd work, and on top of that, an augment slot.
If random loot stats and features got a great buff, and CC allowed crafting of augments into Random loot, it would be fun to loot chests.
It would help new players.
It would buff HC but so what

 

[Br4d]

I used to run a Mechanic who had a half-dozen great xbows and a few repeaters in his inventory at all times. They were situational weapons that had great value against specific targets. Then the Monty Haul effect began, I think with update 27 that put Divine Artillery in the game followed by update 28 that added the Fatal Flaw.

Named items became the best choices after that point and RNG weapons became garbage, useful only for acquiring parts for Cannith crafting.

Certain item types, like Blueshine, are still MVP's in some situations. At low levels Vorpal weapons are still good. After that go find some of the power creep - it's the best answer.

 

[Mobius]

Rng loot was best when High Road was released (u16 maybe???) But Turbine nerfed rng loot into the ground because according to them it was too powerful. The 2 pic below are proof rng loot was really good. Those khopeshes are still useful for leveling. Those were rare drops, not common ones. I wish rng loot would be the same again!!!

I miss seeing these types. Even if it was something that you couldn't use at the time, reading the details was interesting to do. RNG is pretty much only interesting now if it happens to come with two augment slots.

 

[Reaped and Ravaged]

Dropped around the time of the MotU expansion

 

[Jasparius]

How about level 2 and level 4 weapons with Vorpal ?

 

[Speed]

The reason random loot is good in (other) games is because random loot HAS TO BE BETTER than anything named or crafted.

What games do you mean?
What would be the reason for named items (they have names, because they supposed to be powerful by lore) and crafting (collecting ingredients and making whole effort) if random were better?

 

[Zvdegor]

How about level 2 and level 4 weapons with Vorpal ?

I think those not dropping anymore

 

[Br4d]

The best weapon I had was a L18 Great XBow with 3.5W and Vorpal (contributing an additional .5W). Some of the RNG loot was just insane before they stopped extra weapon dice as an RNG property and only Vorpal and Improved Vorpal added dice.

Then the power creep came in and every named weapon had additional weapon dice built-in.

 

[jotmon]

There are some potentially great interesting items, unfortunately... randomgen just cant compare to named items...

Sentience , named set bonuses, augments are integrated into named items... even the best stars aligned random item cant compare.

Without some sort of uniqe bonus that only occurs on random items they are at best just placeholders.

and then there is cannith crafting where we can just make good items that fill openings in our builds.

 

[Br4d]

There are some potentially great interesting items, unfortunately... randomgen just cant compare to named items...

Sentience , named set bonuses, augments are integrated into named items... even the best stars aligned random item cant compare.

Without some sort of uniqe bonus that only occurs on random items they are at best just placeholders.

and then there is cannith crafting where we can just make good items that fill openings in our builds.

Named items always have extra stats. You almost always have 5+ qualities on a named item and you generally have 3 on an RNG weapon, sometimes 4 if it is master-crafted.

As long as the named items have a superior number of qualities they will also be superior. Now that weapon dice have been somewhat standardized it is not a 100% superiority of named over RNG but it is still a huge boost.

The logical solution is to have all weapons have the same number of qualities with maybe 2handed weapons having an additional quality.

Note that earlier named items, like the Sword of Shadow, did not have additional qualities. The extra crit range and damage modifer were attached to a weapon with Adamantine and that was it. No plus damage of any other type. No wounding. No Armor-piercing. That's 3 qualities for what was once the best greatsword in the game.

 

[Blerkington]

Better named loot is one compelling reason to buy adventure packs and expansions. Using shards to get your named items more quickly makes some amount of sense too.

Having random loot being BIS probably falls under SSG's definition of fiscal irresponsibility. Still it would be nice if the algorithm they use to generate random loot produced far less junk.

 

[kmoustakas]

How about level 2 and level 4 weapons with Vorpal ?

You will have noticed, I said after level 5 when 'real' named items start appearing. Actually level 1 random loot can be better than level 1 named loot because most -not all- level 1 named loot only has one ability (borderlands, korthos, harbor) while random level 1 loot has at least two and possibly slots and because of masterful can have actually higher stats on spellpower. Also, thaumaturgy weapons start appearing at level 1. Exceptions exist, looking at necklace of concentration or some STK chain rewards.

There are also level 1 weapons with vorpal. This is a left over from the previous loot system (as well as feeding and the other on vorpal life drain that gives 5sp). The new version of it is 'honed' which starts at level 5 same as 'attuned disruption' and 'attuned smiting'. They are great, until you compare them to a named item with vorpal like twinchopper. I have a minimum level 4 old repeater vorpal of keen edges and it's amazing, for sure. But compare them for example to IOD's level 7 vorpal greataxe with set, doublestrike, insightful doublestrike and a red slot. There is a small chance that you'll get a minimum level 5 honed weapon with a useful suffix and two slots, for sure. Link it to me when you get it and I'll be the first to congratulate you.

What games do you mean?
What would be the reason for named items (they have names, because they supposed to be powerful by lore) and crafting (collecting ingredients and making whole effort) if random were better?

The first that comes to mind is castle of the winds or diablo 1. You had 'named' items but you were always grinding for the random item because it would be actually better since you leveled up. Obviously those are not MMOs but single player games. And I'm not arguing random loot HAS to be better but unless it is, might as well accept it's all vendor trash. I'm suggesting random has to be better because it's impossible to get the 'perfect' random item and comparativelly 'easy' to get a (non-raid hidden upgradable) named item. And even in the case of raid+hidden+upgradable item you will still get it eventually. There's no guarantee you'll get a "material vorpal of keen edges with two slots" EVER. Heck I've been looking for a blueshine greatclub blank with two slots for years. Saw one on hardcore once and almost bought shards from the store to buy it - I regret not doing it to this day because it's been years and I still haven't seen one on Sarlona.

Lastly, to all those random epic weapons you guys are posting. You realise they are all literally worse than min level 21 drow weapons right? Heck even worse than borderlands epic weapons.

 

[Sophie The Cat Burglar]

I know the answer! All named items need to be nerfed!

Vexa the Dagger: Are you trying to get yourself killed?

 

[kmoustakas]

I know the answer! All named items need to be nerfed!

Vexa the Dagger: Are you trying to get yourself killed?

Considering the devs of this game, that's their TLDR lol Oh wait, this ALREADY HAPPENED

 

[Geezer]

The problem with random loot is that even if you were to pull a really good item with multiple abilities on it, I find it usually impossible to slot because of the named item sets I have on. The name of the game as it is today is in the named sets. On another note, remember when Wheloon first came out and the rare drops there were ML1?, you know, like +11 cha or dex, etc? Then they made them level 14. It was nice for a little while

 

[Speed]

The first that comes to mind is castle of the winds or diablo 1. You had 'named' items but you were always grinding for the random item because it would be actually better since you leveled up. Obviously those are not MMOs but single player games. And I'm not arguing random loot HAS to be better but unless it is, might as well accept it's all vendor trash. I'm suggesting random has to be better because it's impossible to get the 'perfect' random item and comparativelly 'easy' to get a (non-raid hidden upgradable) named item. And even in the case of raid+hidden+upgradable item you will still get it eventually. There's no guarantee you'll get a "material vorpal of keen edges with two slots" EVER. Heck I've been looking for a blueshine greatclub blank with two slots for years. Saw one on hardcore once and almost bought shards from the store to buy it - I regret not doing it to this day because it's been years and I still haven't seen one on Sarlona.

Oh yeah, played Diablo 1 a lot for its dark atmosphere and fresh gameplay (before we got clones), but as far as I remember unique (named) items were very rare and this title did not offer many possible effects (and parameters in general).
In classic Baldurs Gate style games, we usually have fixed items.
Still, random loot is useful for new players (I usually put spell power with lore rings or some well combined "aqua" items on auction house) or if someone decide to play it "use only what you find" way (possibly on elite/r1 or lower difficulties).
I am not sure if blueshine is needed on non metal weapons.
I am looking for throwing daggers with dual slot or at least darts (not to mention shurikens which seem to be even rarer - I already have fresh throwing axe, so throwing weapons with dual slot are still generated).
I also try to collect mithral armors with green slot (I have one, rest are yellow).