Update 63 Preview 1: Deck of Many Curses

[Aaabbbcccddd]

I really like the Idea of the cursed deck. Maybe give the players a way to cleanse the items but in return make them more power neutral and give them more of a curse vibe. For example +3 to a save -2 to another save, +1 to a ability score -2 to another one, +3 melee power - 5 prr, +5 to a skill but - 3 to two other skills, and so on.

 

[droid327]

I really think the best system would be to have the cards' results be randomized, but have the randomization occur before you place it on an item - generating a fixed card that can be applied to an item for a known result

Then have those cards be unbound, like filigrees, so we can trade them. I think that provides the best incentive for continuing gameplay, and encourages more economic interaction, which the game could really use

If that means some of the "best" or most powerful cards needs to be rarer...well again, that's just like filigrees too

In any case, being able to cleanse/overwrite a curse is going to be really important

 

[Falkor]

I don't like the idea of it generating a card similar to a filigree considering some people still know how to d**e and would just abuse this. I think this approach is fraught with the potential of exploitation & benefits end game players of a certain ilk. Good in theory, not so great in application.

 

[Matuse]

There's a reason people stopped using Dragontouched armor a long, long time ago. It's this. This system is why. The name is also confusing, since these are basically all buffs. What's the curse? Getting bonus ranged power on your 2 handed melee weapon?

Also: Power creep bad.

 

[Recared]

Hello everyone!

This Lamannia contains a preview of a new item: The Deck of Many Curses! Collect cards to make Decks, and then use those decks to apply mysterious Curses to your equipment! To obtain Cards and try out the Deck of Many Curses, visit the Test Dojo.

An Important Note: While text is in for everything related to this feature, not quite everything works yet. That said, if you see something that doesn't work, feel free to let us know anyway - Better to know too much than not enough. Additionally, before this feature goes live, aspects may be added or removed.

Feel free to discuss this feature here!

I LOVE this new idea/feature! I like it very much that a part of the final build is absolutely random, making each player gear a bit different. LGoMF was a little bit like this, it is so hard to get the combination you want... but it is thrilling to develop different combinations and adapt a bit to it.

 

[mikarddo]

With the actually detrimeltal effects being removed the system does make sense.

You have 1 shot with the RNG to add an effect to any given item. It might be a nice effect or it might be meaningless. That is how RNG works. So far, so good.

Then some players absolutely cannot function if they dont have the absolutely best in every single way. Those players will obviously hate this system because they dont see it as a chance to get something better - they see it as being prevented from having the very best... I would say that is more on those players than on the system but obviously SSG might risk losing players and will have to weigh in that risk.

Finally, there is the issue that the proposed system for curses will further exacerbate the problem that new items compate not just against old items but against old items with +m, +r, set bonus and if the proposal goes through +curse effects that are perfect making it increasingly difficult to upgrade gear to the point where giving up on that becomes a real possibility or atleast doing so very rarely. I will be honest, I see that by far as a greater voice against the system than the "but I have to have the perfect item every time" voice.

So, I can definitely see why the devs may have the idea that this is purely benifitial (once the situationally detrimal effects are removed) - and they are objectively correct. But there is more to this than the actual effects obviously because ddo loot is complex.

 

[Ying]

90% of the effects that have been documented so far are things I just don't care about because they won't be impactful to gameplay. For those mechanics I do care about, I may not even be on the right build to utilize it (ie, +4 USP is nice to have on a nuker but pointless on a melee). If I'm going to be disappointed with card crunching results the overwhelming majority of the time, then there's not much of a motivation to do this content beyond obtaining the trinkets and rings. Cards are 10/10 for thematic new idea, but 2/10 for implementation.

 

[Rull]

I absolutely hate this.

rabidfox phrases it perfectly:

Every new item is compared to prior items. If I have mythic/reaper boosted and now a curse on every item, any replacement will have to either have those or need to be way better to replace them. It'll potentially make me tetris even less than I do now as I'll be weighing the additional costs of curses every time. If I'm stuck with RNG curses that can't be removed/replaced then I could find myself locked into an item for a long long long time as it could be defacto BiS because of that mix of mythic/reaper/curse that just can't be replicated on another newer piece of gear without insane levels of grind/RNG. This'll hurt long term gear design as newer gear will have less shiny appeal to me unless I can get that trifecta of boosts back on it correctly.

I also have a dislike for sentience-in-weapons because it made every niche weapon in the game instantly obsolete. This sounds like that but for every gear slot instead.

As mikarddo phrases it:

Then some players absolutely cannot function if they dont have the absolutely best in every single way. Those players will obviously hate this system because they dont see it as a chance to get something better - they see it as being prevented from having the very best... I would say that is more on those players than on the system but obviously SSG might risk losing players and will have to weigh in that risk.

That's totally me. I like thinking up a new gear layout and then grinding quests to get all the items for it and trying out a lot of different configurations. If I now have to curse every item first and also have a chance to get a bunch of nonoptimal curses so that I have to get those items again and again before I can try the new layout to see if it's better than my current one... well... no you've lost me.

In addition, imagine keeping hammerfists with +3 melee power, with +2% hp, with 10 prr, with an imbue dice and with whatever... your storage system is already severely lacking in this game and you're going to make it worse?

 

[Owlbear]

I really like the Idea of the cursed deck. Maybe give the players a way to cleanse the items but in return make them more power neutral and give them more of a curse vibe. For example +3 to a save -2 to another save, +1 to a ability score -2 to another one, +3 melee power - 5 prr, +5 to a skill but - 3 to two other skills, and so on.

The cleanse item will probably be in the Cash Shop...

 

[Venatori d' Argonnessen]

Tbh I think I would rather see the "bad" curses kept and a reroll mechanic added in some manner.

Other cool deck curses. Obviously not all feasible, but hopefully some cool ideas!

While NOT under the effect of an action boost gain x stat
While your epic moment is going gain x stat
Drastically increase/decrease the cost of vendor stuff
Horses travel 10% faster (like the vip buff in public areas or something)
Recall speed increased
Confetti around your shoulders
While blocking gain x stat (% damage reduction like barb dr?)
Tumble through mobs
Camera is always zoomed in
Concordant opposition
Seeker (dont think this was one yet, but I might have missed it)
Blindness/poison/curse/disease immunity
Power attack (-5 to hit, +5 damage)
Defensive roll
Increase your bab? make bab cap?
Spell resistance
Slippery mind but for fortitude or something
Immunity to silence


Might update this later with more ideas
Thanks!

 

[Spook]

How about a self paralyse (oh wait no that's for raid gear)

 

[Grunndi]

Some of the effects could use a bit of a tweak in my opinion to balance out how powerful each one is, especially if the intent is to make these useful but not quite mandatory effects.

In particular 2 imbue/sneak dice is a little too strong, that’s very near what you get for a 3pc legendary set, I’d limit this to +1. Or maybe just replace with 1/2 deception/seeker.

The +20% threat was problematic, not really high enough for tanks to care and awful for melee DPS, glad to see it go. Maybe replace it with fortification to keep the tanky theme.

Conversely I’m sad to see the -20 threat go, hate tanks wouldn’t care (going from +1400% threat to +1380% won’t make a difference), and this would have been very nice for some melee builds. But if we’re set on scrapping it how about replacing with fort bypass to go with the bluff/sneak attack theme.

The plain skill boosts are very underwhelming, easily the most disappointing ones. Maybe add Amps to some of those, and lump the rogue skills together
+1/2 heal,repair, +3/5 Hamp,Ramp
+1/2 Spellcraft,perform,conc, +3/5 Namp
+1/2 Open Lock, DD, Move Silent, Hide, Search

 

[Nickodeamous]

Conversely I’m sad to see the -20 threat go, hate tanks wouldn’t care (going from +1400% threat to +1380% won’t make a difference), and this would have been very nice for some melee builds. But if we’re set on scrapping it how about replacing with fort bypass to go with the bluff/sneak attack theme.

The plain skill boosts are very underwhelming, easily the most disappointing ones. Maybe add Amps to some of those, and lump the rogue skills together
+1/2 heal,repair, +3/5 Hamp,Ramp
+1/2 Spellcraft,perform,conc, +3/5 Namp
+1/2 Open Lock, DD, Move Silent, Hide, Search

100% agree here. I for one want to have a chance at -20% threat reduction. I think that should stay as you point out, its not detrimental to a tank with 1400% threat...but it is very usefull to other melees.

Also, I agree get rid of the skill boosts like swim, open lock, etc...at end game this is very underwhelming.

I feel like things you can see on the main page of the character sheet (or hover over and see) are the ones that most people would like to see. In addition, things on the + tab are beneficial most of the time (casters like certain attributes, melee like others...etc)

Here is a sample of things I care for when (monk version)

just my 2 cents
Nic

char sheet	char sheet	+ tab	+ tab
str	will	incorp	crit hit dam
dex	spell resist	conceal	Fort Bypass
con	fortification	dodge	dodge bypass
int	acid resist	acid absorb	SA Hit
wis	cold resist	cold absorb	SA Dam
cha	elect resist	elect absorb	SA dice
damage reduction	fire resist	fire absorb	assasinate bonus
HP	sonic resist	sonic absorb	stun bonus
SP	PRR	evil absorb	sunder bonus
Ki	MRR	Law absorb	trip bonus
AC	healing amp	Neg absorb	crit mult
fort	dodge	spell pen	offhand hit
reflex	doublestrike	Helpless Dam	threat
	melee power	crit hit conf

 

[HoopleHead]

How about a self paralyse (oh wait no that's for raid gear)

They released that.. it's called 'Night Revels Candy'...
.
... scarf a couple down in quick succession and it stuns the crap out of you, no save, and no way to clear it.. you just have to wait it out...

 

[knightgf]

In all honesty, this form of crafting should not exist at all. To begin with, not being able to remove curses bestowed upon items wouldn't work even if you could pick the curse in question. If the curse is useless, the only way to work around the problem is to get another item, and some items are very, very hard or rare to obtain, mythic and/or reaper items coming to mind. The usefulness of items changes as new updates are added and the idea of having to obtain more curses for more items on top of the farming is very frustrating. In addition, items already have enough capability for buffs(Though buff types can always be expanded when useful) and enough augment slots as it is, and there are too many crafting systems in-game as well; there is no need for another crafting system for new or existing items! Finally, im not fond of the name 'curse' as in my opinion the drawback for using this item is not significant enough to be considered a curse or hex and it is a little confusing given the current existence of curses in-game; perhaps 'Cards of Limbo' or 'Deck of Many Wonders' may be more appropriate.

The deck of many curses (Or Cards of Limbo as I prefer) would work far better as a consumable instead. One card may be drawn in a given time period (I say once per day but it can be adjusted based on the power of the curses) and it will either bestow an effect on the character that lasts until the deck can be drawn again or a permanent item, such as the sentient XP one has pointed out. The effects can be level-gated to try and further limit the power creep that comes into play with this kind of item. No redraws whatsoever, not even from the DDO Store! Though the overwhelming majority of effects should be beneficial with few if any drawbacks, an effect can be removed before it expires simply by speaking to any spirit binder and asking to remove the effect for a small donation.

 

[Vooduspyce]

Don't like the randomness but please at least make it overwriteable. Reminds me of the original Dragontouched days when runes weren't labeled.

 

[axel15810]

I went on Lam tonight for a bit, crafted a bunch of items and explored the system.

The #1 thing here - as others are saying, a way to overwrite unwanted effects absolutely needs to be added or this system will feel awful b/c you'll basically be forcing people to do a mountain of grind to optimize...for example if a half orc STR barbarian runs Skeletons in the Closet 15-20 times to get enough raid runes to buy an attuned dino bone falchion, then they use the cursed deck crafting and get an unnecessary effect like +1 transmutation DCs that will feel so so awful if you can't overwrite the crafting. It'll require them to run skellies 15-20 more times to get enough runes to get another attuned bone falchion, just so they can get another shot at crafting an optimized item, since overwriting is not possible if this goes live as presented in preview 1.

Assuming a way to recraft is added - I also hope obtaining the ingredient cards is not super grindy. The heavy RNG I will be OK with only if the ingredients are plentiful and RNG crafting rerolls are cheap. That'll make it not so frustrating to see most RNG rolls not give you the effect you want. Alternatively, just let us choose the effect we want in the crafting table and take out the RNG.

Also, another thing I hope the devs keep in mind is that adding a system like this is going to make it harder and harder to roll alts. It incentivizes more and more only playing 1 character since it's an additional layer of work that's going to be required to optimize a character. DCs/monster saves/monster stats in future content I'm sure will take into account the power creep this system brings, which means from a non-casual player mindset grinding this out will feel required. Atleast the better effects like extra DCs in main spell school and main stat bonuses. It also means a bigger gap between new players and vets, especially since this is power creep at every level in DDO, not just endgame, since based on preview 1 it appears cursed crafting can be added to almost any equipable item. You all may want to atleast consider limiting the curse card crafting to endgame items only.

It's also going to make it even more difficult to put together new optimized gearsets. DDO already has very intensive gear tetris which means changing most gear if you want to fit in 1 new thing. Now you're going to have to recraft curse card effects on all that gear on top of grinding out new base items with decent mythic/reaper bonuses and farming ingredients to recraft dino bone/sharn or any other craftable gear. Not to mention farming augments and using a bunch of jeweler's toolkits to move augments. And a bunch of sentient toolkits to move sentient jewels and their rare filagree in weapons and rare filgree in artifacts. Regearing is already very expensive in terms of ingredients, time and resources. To echo my paragraph above, this amount of work makes it incredibly difficult to play more than 1 character in DDO in 2023. Or to swap to completely new builds at endgame.

I think enough has been said about the negative effects and it looks like the devs are taking stuff out like sink like a stone so I won't go into that.

 

[Thorntoe]

What do you see as the risk? The applied benefits are random but only beneficial, so it's not possible to make an item worse by applying one of these random effects to it.

Here is a real risk that I encountered. I applied one curse to each item that I had equipped. Two of the curses were MRR +2, and one of the curses was MRR +5.

They don't stack.

So, I had two cursed items that did absolutely nothing. They weren't bad for a specific class, or race, or build, they were just useless because they don't stack, and with RNG that is always going to be a risk.

 

[Evaldor]

What do you see as the risk? The applied benefits are random but only beneficial, so it's not possible to make an item worse by applying one of these random effects to it.

The real risk here is the individual players time cost and level of enjoyment. Several players have spent a great deal of time upgrading their current gear to min/max it. I've spent the past twelve months saving reaper fragments to boost everything I can in a fully optimised tank gearset, for example (among other items). It cost me 600 fragments... that's a lot of game time.

If I were to add curses to one of these boosted items, but the curse isn't useful, the item could strictly be worse than a non mythic/reaper version of the same item that has a very good curse on it. Imagine comparing an item you spent weeks farming to something your friend made in 5 minutes, in this scenario. Definitely feels bad, right? This system, while optional, potentially works against the player in this regard.

That said, I do really like the thoughts and creativity behind this. Players seem to want to engage with this new game mechanic and the new quests/items are very neat. However, we unanimously want a way to cleanse or reroll these curse stats on our gear. Since when does every player agree on something in DDO? Take a moment and consider that...

 

[nenetteblackmoor]

The developers still haven't replied.
It seems like they want to continue the pointless ten-page discussion even more.

Perhaps even if Lammania closes, there still won't be a response. The developers might be aware of the issues pointed out, but do they really think they can identify the subsequent emerging issues solely with their own abilities?