To SSG; The endgame and the mountain we climb

[Scrag]

DDO at its core is designed around improving your character incrementally over time. If you don't find joy in improving your toon and gearing to perform well, why play?

If TR wasn't such a pain in the ass, I would whole heartedly agree with this. Spending up to an hour or more playing inventory shuffle drains any fun associated with a tr.

 

[Mordenkainen]

If TR wasn't such a pain in the ass, I would whole heartedly agree with this. Spending up to an hour or more playing inventory shuffle drains any fun associated with a tr.

It's that inventory shuffle that prevents me from TRing. And also the re-arranging of my action bars and just the general grindiness of just "getting started".

If you can TR and just be set back to a "save point" of your current life than it'll be so much easier, gear already set, and skills already trained and action bar from that previous save point. Just go quest.

 

[Zvdegor]

It's that inventory shuffle that prevents me from TRing. And also the re-arranging of my action bars and just the general grindiness of just "getting started".

If you can TR and just be set back to a "save point" of your current life than it'll be so much easier, gear already set, and skills already trained and action bar from that previous save point. Just go quest.

I am sure you know it but there is a command to load/save your hot bar layout

/ui layout save/load [name]

 

[woq]

DDO at its core is designed around improving your character incrementally over time. If you don't find joy in improving your toon and gearing to perform well, why play?

I was wondering the same thing. If gear doesn't bring joy, and you behave as if SSG is the enemy and out to get you... Maybe it's time for a break, at least from the forums.

I also don't agree with the notion of old gear being obsolete. A lot of the leveling gear of the past is essentially endgame gear, for a lot of the game is spent in heroic tiers and that past life progression is, in a way, endgame! Carnifex, sky pirate daggers and Sword of Shadow are still doin big bad dam smackin hobgoblin booty like it's 2009. Except better and now on R4+.

 

[rabidfox]

Cannot find the specific line but the gist was "Why chase raid gear and current end game gear when we all know its planned obsolesence."

I'll likely get years of use out of lots of my current gear before I stop wanting to use it. Many things in life become obsolete and replaced over time, but they can brings lots of fun and entertainment in the meantime. I know I'm going to replace my current car(/computer/etc.) with another car someday; better to just not even have a car right now and wait until the replacement is offered.

 

[Lazuli]

Why wouldn't you support it? Some of the most fun I've had in game is racing friends to reaper wings or reaper cap. If there were more to gain from reaper, we'd play more. WoW started with 60 levels and added 60 more (190 more considering other modules).


All of this exists though? Could it be better? Sure. Would it be better if devs weren't chasing things we don't need like Hardcore 24/7? Probably.


I wouldn't play if it weren't for the people I've run with for years.


Huh?


We used to all have 15 toons because there was exactly one thing to do in the game: Run shrouds. Those days are gone. Now, build a toon up as much as you'd like, get it on a build you'd like to run end game with (and can farm with) and move to your next alt. It's easy, really.

By the way, there are quite a few "Low Life" builds posted on the forums that perform remarkably well. Level them, gear them well and you don't ever have to tr them to run a round of raids weekly.


I'm not even paying attention to the curses. The odds of getting something remotely useful (that you'd never even equip, like water breathing) let alone something great for your build (+6 str on ab) is so absurd that I'd rather it be zero chance by not participating than hoping I win like a pleb only to wind up with +2 non stacking bard songs on my tank helm, boots and gloves.

Now, for every 12 cards let me choose a set? Like 5% HP, 10% AC, 5% Dodge Cap or 10% MP/RP - every one of my toons would have 12 curses.

1- I'm not in favor of expanding the reaper system because it already gives a lot of numerical rewards (more cosmetic rewards are ok though), there are already a lot of differences between newbies and veterans. It is time to design new systems that do not have as much numerical impact, more designed for account than for character, and more oriented towards the end game. Reaper system requiring reincarnations for an optimal result is a failure in this sense.

2- As I said before, there is no such thing as a perfect end game. But DDO has failed to make it more social oriented. Likewise, I am here because of the people I have played with all these years, but that does not imply that the social part of the end game, by design, is quite poor. Where are the events that promote grouping of other games? Why are raids so poorly accepted? Why does part of the end game promote reincarnations? Why are there no competitions with prizes like hardcore, but on normal servers? All of this gives life to an end game. Here the devs have neglected the end game by overfeeding the wheel of reincarnations.

3-yes, precisely, the incentive to have alts has been lost. Having a healer alt , a dps alt, a oriented CC alt... was good for end game and for the game in general. But the game now discourages alts so much that it's becoming rarer and rarer. It would be good to recover it, it would be good to move part of the grind rewards from being vertical (improving a single character) to being partially horizontal (improving several, as with raid runes, it is still more work to equip two characters than one, but the rewards benefit the entire account). Extending the grind horizontally would make the power creep and therefore the differences with the new ones not grow so exponentially.

 

[Br4d]

Here the devs have neglected the end game by overfeeding the wheel of reincarnations.

The endgame *is* the wheel of reincarnations.

DDO tosses a raid out there every so often to disguise the fact that what they want all the players doing is participating in the wheel with it's XP pots, slayer pots, Otto's boxes, etc.

It's really not hard to see unless you're one of the few who actually raids regularly on a set toon. Even then odds are you have another toon that is doing the wheel at the same time.

 

[Guntango]

1- I'm not in favor of expanding the reaper system because it already gives a lot of numerical rewards (more cosmetic rewards are ok though), there are already a lot of differences between newbies and veterans. It is time to design new systems that do not have as much numerical impact, more designed for account than for character, and more oriented towards the end game. Reaper system requiring reincarnations for an optimal result is a failure in this sense.

Disagree, there will be new levels, new feats, more power and reaper should absolutely scale up numerically and cosmetically.

2- As I said before, there is no such thing as a perfect end game. But DDO has failed to make it more social oriented. Likewise, I am here because of the people I have played with all these years, but that does not imply that the social part of the end game, by design, is quite poor. Where are the events that promote grouping of other games? Why are raids so poorly accepted? Why does part of the end game promote reincarnations? Why are there no competitions with prizes like hardcore, but on normal servers? All of this gives life to an end game. Here the devs have neglected the end game by overfeeding the wheel of reincarnations.

This is a non-issue for me. Not a fan of big laggy events. Our guild makes our own fun, so we’re good. If you think the devs overfeed reincarnation, you’re looking for a different game. This game is reincarnation.

3-yes, precisely, the incentive to have alts has been lost. Having a healer alt , a dps alt, a oriented CC alt... was good for end game and for the game in general. But the game now discourages alts so much that it's becoming rarer and rarer. It would be good to recover it, it would be good to move part of the grind rewards from being vertical (improving a single character) to being partially horizontal (improving several, as with raid runes, it is still more work to equip two characters than one, but the rewards benefit the entire account). Extending the grind horizontally would make the power creep and therefore the differences with the new ones not grow so exponentially.

You say yes, and then explain an opposite perspective. It’s easy to have highly capable alts in end game, ie the game does not discourage alts; in fact, it supports alts. That said, I’m not against having both vertical and horizontal grind rewards.

 

[Lazuli]

Disagree, there will be new levels, new feats more power and reaper should absolutely scale up numerically and cosmetically.



This is a non-issue for me. Not a fan of big laggy events. Our guild makes our own fun, so we’re good. If you think the devs overfeed reincarnation, you’re looking for a different game. This game is reincarnation.


You say yes, and then explain an opposite perspective. It’s easy to have highly capable alts in end game, ie the game does not discourage alts; in fact, it supports alts. That said, I’m not against having both vertical and horizontal grind rewards.

No, it is not easy to have alts, it is a fact that people have fewer and fewer, and you yourself have said that the days of alts are over.

I know you don't want things to change, but I see a game with a decreasing population.

In short, neither you nor I can do anything. We'll see if the devs know how to handle the helm well.

 

[Lazuli]

The endgame *is* the wheel of reincarnations.

DDO tosses a raid out there every so often to disguise the fact that what they want all the players doing is participating in the wheel with it's XP pots, slayer pots, Otto's boxes, etc.

It's really not hard to see unless you're one of the few who actually raids regularly on a set toon. Even then odds are you have another toon that is doing the wheel at the same time.

And many of us are saying that it should not be like that, that there is quite a lot of boredom in this sense and that it is something that harms grouping.

The reincarnation system is a brilliant idea... that has been overused and has become a detriment. More is not always better.

 

[woq]

The wheel of reincarnations is a cool system and it's nice to have some rewards tied to the process as character customization and character progression are some of the key draws of DDO. It's just the increments when it comes to some of them are too small and too few and far between. The gap between a starting player and a cool build someone is showcasing on the forum is too wide. It's fine to have chase goals, but if a chase goal is two years of dedicated play not including any new races or content that may come out in that time can be in my opinion considered a bit unreasonable.

Not to mention that being forced to be a gnome enjoyer three times to get +1 racial point is torture.

 

[rabidfox]

No, it is not easy to have alts, it is a fact that people have fewer and fewer, and you yourself have said that the days of alts are over.

I know you don't want things to change, but I see a game with a decreasing population.

In short, neither you nor I can do anything. We'll see if the devs know how to handle the helm well.

I had moved away from alts for a long time. Then HC came along and I started getting fresh capped characters with gear already farmed out and decided to do stuff on those builds. With dino-crafting (having removed the need to grind LGS on many builds) and lots of other nice gear available, it's pretty easy to setup a solid 1st lifer that's just parked at cap. These days I regularly recommend to people to park a few alts at cap (usually at least a healer and a dps/gear farming alt).

 

[droid327]

I reject the premise that ssg is making things actively worse. There is room for improvement, but it doesn't require a fundamental redefinition of game design...

You don't need a full stable of triple epic completionists just to participate in raids. Some progress sharing with alts would help, but they shouldn't just hand out free lives like they handed out free quests

 

[Guntango]

I had moved away from alts for a long time. Then HC came along and I started getting fresh capped characters with gear already farmed out and decided to do stuff on those builds. With dino-crafting (having removed the need to grind LGS on many builds) and lots of other nice gear available, it's pretty easy to setup a solid 1st lifer that's just parked at cap. These days I regularly recommend to people to park a few alts at cap (usually at least a healer and a dps/gear farming alt).

Absolutely, I felt like we were going in circles so I dropped it, but thanks for pointing this out. All of the alts I started in the last 5 years have come from HC. We’ve even asked guildies to keep a tank and healer first lifer alt in the wings just in case we’re short for raid nights. Yet, apparently, the game is not alt friendly.

 

[Lazuli]

I had moved away from alts for a long time. Then HC came along and I started getting fresh capped characters with gear already farmed out and decided to do stuff on those builds. With dino-crafting (having removed the need to grind LGS on many builds) and lots of other nice gear available, it's pretty easy to setup a solid 1st lifer that's just parked at cap. These days I regularly recommend to people to park a few alts at cap (usually at least a healer and a dps/gear farming alt).

I have six alts parked at cap. It is not something new for me. Heh, I have played with you with them in addition to my main.

But I don't like the huge difference that four of them have with my main.

And SSG continues to widen the gap because it continues to add vertical grind. It cannot always grow vertically, without catch up mechanisms.

The game would be healthier if, instead of always growing vertically, it grew horizontally, with more distant peaks of vertical growth. And hey, if you think there is so little difference, that shouldn't be a problem for you.

 

[Dom]

I have six alts parked at cap. It is not something new for me. Heh, I have played with you with them in addition to my main.

But I don't like the huge difference that four of them have with my main.

And SSG continues to widen the gap because it continues to add vertical grind. It cannot always grow vertically, without catch up mechanisms.

The game would be healthier if, instead of always growing vertically, it grew horizontally, with more distant peaks of vertical growth. And hey, if you think there is so little difference, that shouldn't be a problem for you.

Alts will obviously never be as good as mains unless you put in the same grind. In this case, a first (or low life) alt is equivalent to a new player starting the game. That's where The Guide suggestion came into play - a bit of an incentive to get to a certain threshold of lives and then you can boost your way up a bit to get more up to speed.

 

[John3000]

Past lives bonuses would be great if they made them account wide bonuses, just like Elder Scrolls Online does with their Champion Point System...

Like that your ALTs don't suffer, and we could experiment builds/alts much easier... Makes PUGing easier so as to switch the trapper, tank, heal bulds without penalty... Would actually make things much more fun.

For new players, I say start by making 36 point builds the default. Scrap the 28/32/34 which severly limit build options and are more toxic than past live bonuses. Make 30% run speed bonus option readily available, because the game is so slow without. And decent hireling options : Why not a permanent gold seal cleric hireling for all new players from levels 1 to 10 to help through early struggles. Free respec until level 10, because newbs will make mistakes, so let's be cool to them. Make bigby's hands available to buy for platinum, to encourage Vets to help new players learn quests.

These would be a step in the right direction.

Cheers

 

[rabidfox]

For new players, I say start by making 36 point builds the default. Scrap the 28/32/34 which severly limit build options and are more toxic than past live bonuses.

It'd make it so much easier to give people build files too; having to dial things back is a pain (well I'd still have to dial back any tomes or past lives used, but it would be one less thing to do).

 

[Falkor]

I think an elegant and simple solution is to encourage grouping

Do this by offering a 1% xp bonus for each player in the party to all players. Basically a permanent buddy bonus.

VIP get a 5% bonus per person. This is a strong incentive to purchase VIP. It also gives a substantial value to VIP, and would encourage sales.

Encouraging and rewarding grouping helps everyone, new and veteran players alike. It also opens up more LFMs because people who solo or are in private groups tend to open up more for the XP reward. It makes the game feel populated, and not so abandoned for newer players.

By adding a flat XP bonus for everyone, the grind is reduced by a hair. For those who contribute financially, their grind diminishes further. This helps with racial grind and getting new people up to speed. It helps with boosting the power of alts.

And do this for heroic quests, levels 1-20 only. Since Epic / Iconic lives _are_ quicker and easier, so they don't need an XP boost. I think keeping this type of boost as heroic is important.

This is a win-win. And as a bonus, it's super easy to implement with current systems.

This solution addresses numerous problems with low-effort and current systems.

 

[Speed]

The game should be entertainment, not work or pressure.
What is enjoyable and which path is chosen depends on the player.

Is it enjoyable to take part in pressure race for parameters?
If not, then you can play the game normally on R1 or higher for more pure challenge (especially in groups when difficulty drops a lot).
Are you missing something this way?
Yes, degradation by higher difficulty of what you earned with your sacrificed free time and forced hard work instead of I guess just having fun with playing how you like.
You can get that raid item to... repeat this and other raids again!
How much costs you each +1 parameter?
Does it mean that you are better player or are you just backed by passives?
Is it worth it?
Some people need a goal, even if it is progress illusion loop (thats ok in this case as long as they truly enjoy it), others play for other reasons (and still can enjoy it).
This is individual thing and only you can answer to yourself - red pill or blue pill?

There is hardcore server.
Sadly there is no server without past lives, tomes, reaper tree, btc gear and ship buffs, so only knowledge, gaming skill, character creation, item composition and social would matter.
I know that not everyone would enjoy that, because some (if not most) need that feeling of changes called "progresson" (even if you can actually combine various things during character level ups that support advanced customization when compared to other simpler games).
In sports or even various video games, all things that are not auto passives, so experience/skill/knowledge/social are enough to keep you playing.
Sure, you can always play without extra bonuses, but if you want group for social cooperative and human influenced variety/random effect reasons, then some overpowered runners (that should solo R10 instead of easy mode) join to ruin whole experience.
We could have categories/settings to match power level of players (just like you can exclude character levels and classes or set party size limit), but I guess population is not enough for it.