Do reaper enhancement trees make playing in reaper easier than it should be?

[rabidfox]

R10 should never have awarded anything additional other than bragging rights

RXP and RP keeps people interested beyond the one and done bragging rights; the current system has a sustained longevity. How many people push raid (where bragging rights are these days)? Not many, and those who do tend to one and done that. Groups were clearing the recent extreme challenge quests on r10 on day 1. If all that we had was bragging rights, many high end players would log on for new content, do it on r10 to say they did it, and then take a 6 month break until the next content pack came out. And casual players would just continue to play the same as always. The RXP system did a solid job of keeping those on the high end to have something to do in game and an objective to work on.

 

[DBZ]

Not really those were the old grinds meh now we have shiny new rng grinds lol

 

[Lazuli]

If there are people who feel that reaper enhancements take away from their fun, they just have to do one very simple thing: don't invest in reaper trees. Whether or not to spend points on them, or how many invest, is entirely a player's decision.

The fact that none of those who complain about a lack of challenge do that, and instead the majority of those who are asking for more rewards makes me very skeptical of those claims.

 

[Onyxia2016]

Do I have points and use reaper trees?
Sure, they are part of the game.

Would I be upset and quit if SSG said they were doing away with them?
Nope.

Would I still play reaper from time to time?
Yep, sometime for the challenge or to get the heart pumping, other for the % chance to named loot drops.

 

[droid327]

Reaper points is part the original reaper, so I don't see how you can say it deafets it's own purpose.

Progression makes perfect sense in a progression based game.

The whole reason Reaper exists is because people complained Elite had become too easy with power creep.

So they added Reaper mode, but then added in a power creep mechanic within the very mode created as a response to power creep

It defeated it purpose as soon as it was created. And eventually, it'll just end up recreating the same situation that led to its creation in the first place - which is why we're already seeing people calling for R11-20. And then they'll demand increased rewards for the increased difficulty, raising the RP cap and adding new Reaper trees. And then they'll complain that R20 is too easy and demand R30

The only way to break the feedback loop of power creep is to add more difficulty without adding progression, and then tell people its there if they want a challenge, so they can either take it or leave it.

 

[Shear-buckler]

The whole reason Reaper exists is because people complained Elite had become too easy with power creep.

So they added Reaper mode, but then added in a power creep mechanic within the very mode created as a response to power creep

It defeated it purpose as soon as it was created. And eventually, it'll just end up recreating the same situation that led to its creation in the first place - which is why we're already seeing people calling for R11-20. And then they'll demand increased rewards for the increased difficulty, raising the RP cap and adding new Reaper trees. And then they'll complain that R20 is too easy and demand R30.

You would be correct if the reaper trees matched the difficulty scaling, but it doesn't so you are simply wrong.
Also the players who call for R11-20 don't think R10 is trivial thanks to their reaper trees but because how grossly imbalanced and "exploitable" the game is at the high end.

 

[Enoach]

The progression of reaper enhancements can make things in reaper easier. I honestly wanted the system to stay cosmetic only, but we have these now. The part that can occur though is it can be an encouragement to run at higher skulls.

While I still think the enhancements defeat the purpose of difficulty, my main issue is with features of the reaper enhancements that bleed into the non-reaper difficulty.

 

[PraetorPlato]

The whole reason Reaper exists is because people complained Elite had become too easy with power creep.

So they added Reaper mode, but then added in a power creep mechanic within the very mode created as a response to power creep

It defeated it purpose as soon as it was created. And eventually, it'll just end up recreating the same situation that led to its creation in the first place - which is why we're already seeing people calling for R11-20. And then they'll demand increased rewards for the increased difficulty, raising the RP cap and adding new Reaper trees. And then they'll complain that R20 is too easy and demand R30

The only way to break the feedback loop of power creep is to add more difficulty without adding progression, and then tell people its there if they want a challenge, so they can either take it or leave it.

But *every tier of reaper* beyond r1 is harder than elite, with full reaper points even. R10 is hilariously harder than elite even with full reaper trees. If you reset your reaper trees, r8 is easier than r10 with full reaper trees. R8 compared to elite is ...clearly a solid way to address power creep.

Put another way: with 0 reaper points spent, elite is not a challenge. This suggests that we need a harder difficulty. Reaper, even with trees, is a harder difficulty. You can think of r1 as the difficulty that reaper trees power creep back to elite. All the further difficulties are challenge without compensating power.

 

[Onyxia2016]

My dream Reaper Mode.

No trees, RP's
Increased chance to get named gear, bonuses on said gear or rare items (augments, filigrees, etc..)
With great risk should come greater reward.

Other than the loot and XP/levels nothing else should better you odd from reaper level to reaper level.

This would also mean those looking to run reaper, only have the past lives advantage over the first lifer.
This would be a much narrower gap and would more likely encourage grouping of the two player types.
There would be little need to shun a first lifer or see it as them bringing down the group because they do not have a couple hundred RP's to pump them up.

Not saying this is a dream that everyone has to agree with, only that it would be interesting.
Maybe do a no reaper tree guild. Not sure how you could really enforce it and you would not have the increase chance to item drops to make reaper worth doing in place of the RXP reward component.

 

[Lazuli]

In reality, many of those who say r1 is easier than elite play so little elite that they have forgotten how easy elite is. All the benefits of r1 don't quite make up for the reaper's damage and healing amp penalty.

The reality is, if r1 is a cakewalk for you, elite is going to be a cakewalk as well (I would say an easier cakewalk, but at that point there really aren't many differences, because both are so easy that you fly through the quest), and you should be playing on difficulties higher than r1.

 

[Onyxia2016]

I think the idea of R1-3 being easier than elite really comes down to the character being played.

If you are a caster (nuker) I find I have to shrine up more often on elite because there are no lost souls.
On repeat I can spam spell after spell, with the metamagics cranked up and not worry about SP.

Melee on the other hand do not have such an advantage. The hits are harder and they have no HP equivalent to lost souls.
So in essence it is harder for them.

So I guess R1 being easier that elite is both true and false depending on the class being played.

 

[woq]

Now that is an interesting tangent - the prevalence of lost souls. I like those cute blue shiny bubbles. Maybe lost souls should be incorporated into lower difficulties in some shape or form or nerfed in reaper, though I don't feel like casters deserve such a nerfing.

Spell points are a bit of a touchy subject though because in hard long challenge modes they may become a p2w mechanic as they are currently - access to spell power pots is very limited/rng unless such a way has been added in recent years (please tell me theres a vendor somewhere that I don't know about that sells them for farmable ingame currency, like tokens of some kind??? please).

Edit: such ways have in fact been added! good

 

[droid327]

R8 compared to elite is ...clearly a solid way to address power creep.

Yes, it provided additional difficulty. That part was fine

But then it also added in a mechanic to create additional power creep, the very thing it was created to address. That part wasn't needed. If difficulty was what players wanted, then that should have been enough motivation on its own.

It's like getting a tetanus shot with a rusty needle lol

 

[Lazuli]

I think the idea of R1-3 being easier than elite really comes down to the character being played.

If you are a caster (nuker) I find I have to shrine up more often on elite because there are no lost souls.
On repeat I can spam spell after spell, with the metamagics cranked up and not worry about SP.

Melee on the other hand do not have such an advantage. The hits are harder and they have no HP equivalent to lost souls.
So in essence it is harder for them.

So I guess R1 being easier that elite is both true and false depending on the class being played.

What I have found is that if I don't have to worry about spell points in r1, even less in elite, because everything dies too quickly to spend a lot of mana.

 

[Shear-buckler]

It's like getting a tetanus shot with a rusty needle lol

It's like adding character progression and enhancement trees to a game about character progression and enhancement trees.

Adding reaper without reaper trees would we like adding curse cards without access to curse cleansers. A complete waste of time and potential.

 

[PraetorPlato]

Yes, it provided additional difficulty. That part was fine

But then it also added in a mechanic to create additional power creep, the very thing it was created to address. That part wasn't needed. If difficulty was what players wanted, then that should have been enough motivation on its own.

It's like getting a tetanus shot with a rusty needle lol

Ok, but it didn't obviate the introduction of reaper. Reaper still checked power creep very well.

 

[Col Kurtz]

You can always reset you reaper tree points and not spend any. Will certainly make R10's more challanging for folks.

Also works for Destiny and Action points. One can always make it more challanging.

don t forget to remove your armor and jewelry too

 

[Ahpuch]

Now that is an interesting tangent - the prevalence of lost souls. I like those cute blue shiny bubbles. Maybe lost souls should be incorporated into lower difficulties in some shape or form or nerfed in reaper, though I don't feel like casters deserve such a nerfing.

Spell points are a bit of a touchy subject though because in hard long challenge modes they may become a p2w mechanic as they are currently - access to spell power pots is very limited/rng unless such a way has been added in recent years (please tell me theres a vendor somewhere that I don't know about that sells them for farmable ingame currency, like tokens of some kind??? please).

625 Tokens from the Sands will get you a ring of Spell Storing. Its exclusive but you can carry an Epic and a Legendary one. That is 8 Major Mnemonics refillable at every shrine (call it 2400 SP). If that doesn't help enough....

 

[Speed]

Progression makes perfect sense in a progression based game.

Passive numbers is not the only progress that player can make.
Assuming that someone maxed knowledge already, there is always gaming skill that can be mastered.
Not true for pnp version or other turn based games, but this one is action heavy.
Interesting combination of various things to progress.

 

[Ethril]

Lost Souls for example help caster's a lot. I can run a caster (nuker type) through a reaper level and not really worry about running out of SP.
I run the same character through the elite version and I have to adjust how much I am casting or I will run out of SP.

The build I'm running for racials (caster/cone cold warlock) is much easier on R1 than elite because of this, the added HP, and other defenses from the reaper trees. I can spam Evard's, ice storm, creeping cold, greater creeping cold, niac's, and arcane tempest as fast and often as I want withouth worrying about running out of SP. Even with the adjustments to how many lost souls are dropped. Honestly, the drop rate is probably too high or the number of SP you get from them is too high, but I'm not complaining.